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Thread: Skadi Stance on the Ulster-Scots?

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    Senior Member Loyalist's Avatar
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    Skadi Stance on the Ulster-Scots?

    While the issue has not yet arisen due to an absence of registered members from Northern Ireland, what is the policy of Skadi towards the Ulster-Scots? We know that they are the descendants of Lowland Scots and English settlers, with a handful of continental Europeans who arrived during the Williamite Wars, all of whom, by virtue of their wholly or largely Germanic heritage, qualify for membership at Skadi. The Irish, as a primarily Celtic people, are evidently excluded, but what about their counterparts in Ulster? Also, please bear in mind that many Anglo-American Skadi posters count the Scots-Irish among their forbears, so whether or not Ulster-born-and-resident members would be welcomed is significant to those of us with Ulster-Scottish heritage born outside of Northern Ireland.

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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    I suppose the question of the Ulster Scots (or Anglo-Irish, or Scots-Irish, or whatever you want to call them) has never come up simply because nobody from that area has tried to participate in the forum yet. I've never thought about the subject myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    The Irish, as a primarily Celtic people, are evidently excluded, but what about their counterparts in Ulster? Also, please bear in mind that many Anglo-American Skadi posters count the Scots-Irish among their forbears,
    Well, the Ulster Scots are an interesting case, as they are primarily the descendants of Lowland Scottish settlers and because the old Ulster Scotch language is even a dialect of Scots (and thus, unrelated to any Celtic tongues). So in that regard, they clearly pass the "Germanic test".

    However, they have intermarried with the native Irish a lot. I'm not sure how much. The whole area of Ulster is one of those "ethnic borderlands" where Germanics have mingled a lot with their neighbors. Compare with the Southern English who are sometimes mixed with Welsh, and the Prussians who often have a lot of Slavic blood (just look at their surnames). However, both of these groups still fit into the "wider Germanic category" for obvious ethno-cultural reasons. Do the Ulster Scots?

    My guess is that the Ulster Scots don't have a section on this forum yet for three combined reasons: their total absence from here, the fact that the religious markers "Protestant" and "Catholic" are the only reliable way to tell apart the groups in Ulster (i.e. no ethnic markers), and finally the common Skadi tendency to think "If in doubt about them, they're not Germanic".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    I suppose the question of the Ulster Scots (or Anglo-Irish, or Scots-Irish, or whatever you want to call them) has never come up simply because nobody from that area has tried to participate in the forum yet. I've never thought about the subject myself.
    Well the Anglo-Irish are a distinct group, primarily the descendants of English settlers and indigenous Irish (mostly of Norman origin) who assimilated into the upper classes by embracing Anglicanism. On that note, religion is, for the most part, a good way of distinguishing the groups in Ireland; Anglo-Irish tend to be Anglican and, to a lesser extent, Methodist, whereas Ulster-Scots are almost always Presbyterian. There are exceptions due to modern conversions, of course.

    Well, the Ulster Scots are an interesting case, as they are primarily the descendants of Lowland Scottish settlers and because the old Ulster Scotch language is even a dialect of Scots (and thus, unrelated to any Celtic tongues). So in that regard, they clearly pass the "Germanic test".
    Indeed, the Ulster-Scots language is a dialect of the Scots tongue.

    However, they have intermarried with the native Irish a lot. I'm not sure how much. The whole area of Ulster is one of those "ethnic borderlands" where Germanics have mingled a lot with their neighbors. Compare with the Southern English who are sometimes mixed with Welsh, and the Prussians who often have a lot of Slavic blood (just look at their surnames). However, both of these groups still fit into the "wider Germanic category" for obvious ethno-cultural reasons.
    I would be very careful about generalizing with respect to large-scale mixing with the indigenous Irish. Keep in mind that the Scottish and English planters have not co-habited the same land to a similar chronological scale as the English/Welsh or Prussians/Slavs. Furthermore, religion was (and still is) a huge barrier to mixing between the settlers and indigenous population, a phenomenon not shared by other populations who co-habit neighbouring lands. If the Ulster-Scots had done significant mixing with the natives, many would also bear native Irish surnames, and I can attest to the fact that this is rare enough that those in the Protestant community who do have Irish names are ridiculed for alleged Catholic ancestry.

    My guess is that the Ulster Scots don't have a section on this forum yet for three combined reasons: their total absence from here, the fact that the religious markers "Protestant" and "Catholic" are the only reliable way to tell apart the groups in Ulster (i.e. no ethnic markers), and finally the common Skadi tendency to think "If in doubt about them, they're not Germanic".
    Well, that is exactly it; my interest is in what Skadi's response would be if an Ulster-Scot resident in Northern Ireland created an account. And, as I said, religion is not the only marker to distinguish the Ulster-Scots from the indigenous Irish (surnames, geographical location, genealogical evidence, etc.). As for whether the administration and wider membership base extend the benefit of the doubt to the Ulster-Scots as it concerns their Germanic identity, that is the question...

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    New Member Ridder's Avatar
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    My family is from Northern Scotland so I'd like to to know what the forum's administration thinks of this.

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    Senior Member Gall Óglach's Avatar
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    Ethnically it is hard to say for sure; the amount of mixture between settlers and the native population. Based on the religious and linguistic divisons I would say it was probably not that high before the 19th century.

    In terms of culture Ulster is quite like America, it's a shallow colonial identity steeped deeply in religious puritanism. Also a staunch loyalty to Britain.

    I'm not sure what the exact criteria for being germanic is. How germanic the Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Irish are, would depend on how germanic the Anglo colonies are, as Ulster was the first Anglo colony.

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    How Germanic were Lowland Scots/Ulster Scots?

    Interesting thread: it raises the question of the degree of Germanic heritage of Ulster Scots and their Lowland Scots forbears. How Germanic were Lowland Scots? Certain Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, I believe, extended into what is now the region from which the Lowland Scots originated before some of their number migrated to Ulster as colonists and settlers. Can anyone elaborate on this or direct me to a pertinent thread on this matter? I would very much like to know the degree to which Lowland Scots and their colonist branch in Ulster were Germanic.

    The Anglo-Irish would certainly qualify as Germanic as they are ethnically English/Anglo-Saxon; pre-Elizabethan Ireland, too, was settled by Anglo-Norman settlers, but I believe in too few numbers to be statistically significant and since the 16th century these "Norman" Irish were subsumed by the native Irish-Gaelic Celtic populace. This would apply to Danish and other Viking settlers in Ireland: their number being few they were absorbed by the Irish-Gaelic Celts.

    Anglo-Saxon colonists and settlers and their descendants in Ulster, too, are a Germanic strain. The descendants of the English that, together with the Lowland Scots, colonised and settled the nine-county province of Ulster with the Anglo-Irish of the rest of the island of Ireland constitute a significant Germanic element in Ireland. I believe Counties Monaghan and Cavan were colonised and settled by just about equal numbers of English and Lowland Scots colonists and settlers. The degree to which the Anglo-Irish and their Anglo-Ulsterman brothers have had their Germanic blood diluted by interbreeding with the native Celts, I would think is next to impossible to estimate or quantify.

    If any more knowledgeable person can confirm or rectify any of my statements above, please feel free to do so as I am eager to get to an informed position on the degree to which Ireland's population has a Germanic strain. Ditto Scotland. The Germanic elements of Scotland and Ireland I find very interesting subjects.

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    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    This is interesting, I always thought of those Ulster Protestants as being Irish people that happen to be Baptists. Obviously I was wrong. I suppose they're Germanic if they are of Scottish background and are welcome on this forum if they put their ethnic identity as Scots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingvaeonic View Post
    If any more knowledgeable person can confirm or rectify any of my statements above, please feel free to do so as I am eager to get to an informed position on the degree to which Ireland's population has a Germanic strain. Ditto Scotland.
    Ireland's population has a slight Germanic strain because of Norse invasions, although not by much. Eastern Ireland is supposed to be "more" Germanic than the rest of the island (Ulster excluded, obviously), due to the Vikings concentrating there and mainly due to the close proximity to England.

    Scotland, as far as I know, is a mostly Germanic country where the Gaelic elements are minor and largely a cultural thing.

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    Yes, the question has never been raised because we haven’t had members from this area, though it's an interesting one. Generally speaking, since the Ulster Scots are generally of Lowland Scottish and English origin, we would treat them as we do our (Lowland) Scottish members. They should be welcome insofar they take an interest and/or identify with their Germanic heritage.

    We take into account the fact that national identity in Northern Ireland is a complex matter and heavily divided. Thus members signing up from this country as well as their New World counterparts of Northern Irish ancestry would be given the benefit of the doubt and then reviewed on a case-by-case basis, as we do with our Scottish, French (mainly Norman) or French-Canadian (mainly Acadian) members. Religion could be an indicator although admittedly not the only and of course it’s not set in stone. According to recent figures, 83.1% of Protestants in Northern Ireland identified as "British" or with a British ethnic group (English, Scottish, or Welsh) in the 2011 Census, whereas only 3.9% identified as "Irish".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...p_and_identity

    Also interesting:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ional_identity

    Other indicators would be genealogy or family history, whether they identify as unionists or Irish nationalists and of course, as mentioned above, their identification (or lack thereof) with our Germanic mission.

    Matters relating to the Ulster Scots from Northern Ireland can be discussed either in the Scottish section or under Germanic Enclaves & Influences. Should there be enough activity and interest we can discuss opening a new section with time.

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