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Thread: Did Mediterranean's Copy Ideas from the Nordic Races?

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    Did Mediterranean's Copy Ideas from the Nordic Races?

    Most of the intellectual achievements of the ancient mediterraneans and North Africans (Egyptians, Carthaginians etc.) are unquestionably farther advanced intellectually than those of any other European civilizations at the time. Now I look at how Germanics and Anglos have expanded on their principles in modern society and the Med countries have stayed "traditional", stuck in their ways, and are progressing intellectually at a slower pace and wonder if the nordic races did indeed come up with many of their ideas originally. Of course, I always thought it had to do with the fact that the first cities arose in Southwest Asia and that the Meds just had the advantage of geography on their hands, but I still can't help but entertain the possibility of Madison Grant's suspicion because of the selective talents and weaknesses of their traditional culture. They may have just adapted a few ideas over time and then expanded on them at their own pace. I think if we had their same advantages, we would have progressed at a faster pace in some areas, since we do today, but it is just a theory. This was a suspicion of racialist Madison Grant, but he was certainly not biased against Meds, he was thinking of it in objective terms under his opinions/theories about race science.

    Despite the fact that we dominate culturally, we are still comitting racial suicide, which is an issue that I think sympathetic psychologists/biologists/doctors etc. should be working on. There are certainly various obvious reasons for this, but it is still an unsettling, complex problem that doesn't make immediate sense for some reasons.

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    Most likely they didn't copy ideas. They simply created high cultures earlier on, because the warm southern climate was more suitable for building civilizations. It was a better environment for finding outlet for Indo-European creativity. And even then, many Greco-Roman inventions and systems did have Nordic counterparts: for example, the Greek democracy and the Germanic althing.

    You even guessed the right answer yourself: the Nordics lived in a much colder and harsher climate, which is why they lagged behind the Mediterranean empires at first. A harsh climate means that you'll be spending most of your energy on the bare essentials of survival, with not much time for anything else. That doesn't mean that Nordics are "primitive", not at all, it just means we didn't have a the head-start that South Europe had. We caught up later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    Most likely they didn't copy ideas. They simply created high cultures earlier on, because the warm southern climate was more suitable for building civilizations. It was a better environment for finding outlet for Indo-European creativity. And even then, many Greco-Roman inventions and systems did have Nordic counterparts: for example, the Greek democracy and the Germanic althing.

    You even guessed the right answer yourself: the Nordics lived in a much colder and harsher climate, which is why they lagged behind the Mediterranean empires at first. A harsh climate means that you'll be spending most of your energy on the bare essentials of survival, with not much time for anything else. That doesn't mean that Nordics are "primitive", not at all, it just means we didn't have a the head-start that South Europe had. We caught up later.
    Well, that's what the popular theory is, but there are some people who've speculated that it may be a little bit different. There is no real proof of it, and Grant's hypothesis is based more on pure racialism than history, but it is something to take into account, because if we don't investigate things we could miss something.

    Here is a quote from Grant:

    To what extent the Mediterranean race entered into the blood and civilization of Rome, it is now difficult to say, but the traditions of the Eternal City, its love of organization, of law and military efficiency, as well as the Roman ideals of family life, loyalty, and truth, point clearly to a Nordic rather than to a Mediterranean origin.

    It just makes sense to me that nordics would be the ones who largely created these systems of morality and ideas, since from a biological standpoint, it is hard to use something that doesn't come naturally to your way of thinking. Family members all have similar brains (even though they may not be alike personality wise or have similar interests). Thus they all think in a similar way, and members of the nordic race are all related in a way so all have roughly similar tendencies and abilities when you push aside individual intelligence and personality. You may have a nordic who has average or dumb intelligence in comparison with others of his genepool, but in comparison to other races and subraces, he is smarter/sharper than the average bear in ways nordics tend to be. Thus, subrace and mental tendencies correlate regardless of the giftedness or psychological health of the person and it doesn't matter if the person is a dummy or highly intelligent, they still function the best in the system derived from the values of their specific ethnic society. Since these values may have been twisted a little more to fit the urban Med lifestyle, it's the perfect balance of nordic values (or possibly raw ideas, inventions, and artistic techniques as well) and worldliness. The classic culture we adopted is certainly partially indigenous to the Med race, but under this theory it was basically only changed by the advantageous geography and urban free trade lifestyle which nordics had a lack thereof. Meds couldn't do as much with the culture as we could, because they are not progressing the way we are, so that's why I think it is possible, but again there is not really any proof.

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    Not at all at least in the Classical World. Mediterranean's gave the Western World the fundamental and original formats for reason and morality which is quite ironic looking at today's modern Mediterranean World. Germanics incorporated and integrated Mediterranean ideals on reason and morality because they respected them. This respect was mutual many Romans and a few Greeks admired the Germanics.



    I forget who said it but in one Roman Historian's account he takes note of Germanics great emphasis on chastity and simple eloquence. It probably was Tacticus if I am remembering this correctly. Germanics did though perfect and advance upon Mediterranean Ideals and Virtues. Their Concepts were given a sublime and poetical force which Mediterraenean's just did not have the inherent capacity to produce. Mediterraeneans at least from the Renaissance age to the Modern Day still have produced great works of intellect, culture, and art but not with the quantity and quality that Germanics produced.



    Another trait which makes Germanics superior to Mediterraneans is that they put a greater emphasis on discipline and order which allows them to give form and structure to that which has the potential or is good and beautiful. Mediterranean's tend to be too light headed and passionate to form such ordered and structured manifestations and productions.

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    No, I don't think they copied anything. I don't see too many similarities between the ancient Norse and the Greco-Roman cultures, apart from the things that came from a shared Indo-European source.

    Quote Originally Posted by feisty goddess View Post
    Well, that's what the popular theory is, but there are some people who've speculated that it may be a little bit different. There is no real proof of it, and Grant's hypothesis is based more on pure racialism than history, but it is something to take into account, because if we don't investigate things we could miss something.
    I think you should take any "racialist's view on history" with a huge grain of salt. Personal bias always creeps into it, and everyone wants their own group to look better. Madison Grant was obviously biased in favor of Nordics, as his view on history shows. It's not much different than the Polako guy, whose eurogenes research is biased in favor of Polish people. I've yet to see a high-profile "racialist" who doesn't put his own group at the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimodighet View Post
    No, I don't think they copied anything. I don't see too many similarities between the ancient Norse and the Greco-Roman cultures, apart from the things that came from a shared Indo-European source.


    I think you should take any "racialist's view on history" with a huge grain of salt. Personal bias always creeps into it, and everyone wants their own group to look better. Madison Grant was obviously biased in favor of Nordics, as his view on history shows. It's not much different than the Polako guy, whose eurogenes research is biased in favor of Polish people.

    There is no problem with racialism we just can't ignore one historical context and then put too much emphasis on another. The thing is personal bias will always be there but to be honest Nordids do not constitute all Germanic peoples. The Nordid type has its root in Eastern Europe and before that in Eurasian amongst Proto-Slavic peoples.

    The Kurgan and Bell Beaker type were Nordid types but they were not Germanic meanwhile a lot of Germanic types tend to be Upper Paleolithic or Late Mesolithic types although this is not always the case. There is a great deal of phenotype diversity among certain groups of people and it is not always scientifically appropriate to attach a certain specific mode of personality to them.

    Though I must say Germanics have advanced upon and perfected Graeco-Roman Ideals while the modern day Italians and Greeks seem to have settled for a bastardized form of Germanic Culture.

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    They attempted to copy governmental welfare and pension systems from Nordic countries. So the answer is yes, they did attempt to copy and paste many policies from nations with different cultures and ways of thinking.

    Such created artificial economic bubbles for Southern Europe because simply Southern Europeans do not have Nordic peoples culture of thriftiness and savings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimodighet View Post
    No, I don't think they copied anything. I don't see too many similarities between the ancient Norse and the Greco-Roman cultures, apart from the things that came from a shared Indo-European source.


    I think you should take any "racialist's view on history" with a huge grain of salt. Personal bias always creeps into it, and everyone wants their own group to look better. Madison Grant was obviously biased in favor of Nordics, as his view on history shows. It's not much different than the Polako guy, whose eurogenes research is biased in favor of Polish people.

    You can't deny that Greek ideas in philosophy and science heavily influenced some Germanic countries depending on how heavily they invested themselves in these studies. A lot of Germanic people adopted the Roman Law System and Virtue system which included self-discipline and order. I would not say they copied but they borrowed Graeco-Roman Ideals and gave their formats in both reason and morality a uniquely Germanic personality and quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeistFaust View Post
    You can't deny that Greek ideas in philosophy and science heavily influenced some Germanic countries depending on how heavily they invested themselves in these studies. A lot of Germanic people adopted the Roman Law System and Virtue system which included self-discipline and order. I would not say they copied but they borrowed Graeco-Roman Ideals and gave their formats in both reason and morality a uniquely Germanic personality and quality.
    You misunderstood me. I meant that the Greco-Romans didn't copy anything from the ancient Germanics. It was rather the other way around, the Germanics absorbed the best parts of Greco-Roman culture when coming into contact with it.

    Obviously, all modern civilized countries have copied lots from the Greco-Roman political systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimodighet View Post
    You misunderstood me. I meant that the Greco-Romans didn't copy anything from the ancient Germanics. It was rather the other way around, the Germanics absorbed the best parts of Greco-Roman culture when coming into contact with it.

    Obviously, all modern civilized countries have copied lots from the Greco-Roman political systems.


    Excuse the misunderstanding although one could not disagree that Germanics perfected and advanced upon Graeco-Roman Ideals unlike any other.

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