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Thread: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean Race and the Europid Concept

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    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by herr georg
    Funny how quickly people are to exclude north africans and middle easterners as white.
    The genetic difference between south europeans and middle easterners is very little and insignificant.
    Can I ask why there is any reason to include greeks and south italians as white and not,
    saddam hussein for instance? care to point out what isn't white about him ? keeping in mind that the vast majority of arabs look like that. White skinned mediterraneans.
    Saddam hussein? LOL What are you talking about?

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.

    Even west and east-Mediterranid is something which is made up. Some in Turkey look Atlanto-Med and there are people in western Europe who have nasal prominence of what would except from an eastern group, but these are called Dinaroid, even if they are long-headed. It is all nonsense.

    I agree with herr georg. Furthermore, there are Berbers in NW Africa that come close to the so-called unreduced UP survivors of Ireland.

    Mediterranid is as valid as Nordid. There are varieties within each group. I think it is better to talk about a belt of Southern Europids and Northern Europids. The British Isles are to some extent inbetween. The northern group should be from Slovenia and Montenegro and northwards.

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.
    I think you need to travel more, with all due respect.

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    We all need to. You are no different. That there is a southern and northern belt is not based on anecdotes.

    The only think I would agree with is the paternal genetic lineage from northern Iberia up to western Scandinavia, and in this respect Iberia differs from Greece. One can also see it in the physical types. Italy stand between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I think you need to travel more, with all due respect.

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    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    Very few here would be able to tell differences if the clothes and cultural expressions were the same.

    Absolutely. I agree completely on this statement . It's logic and credible. There are really few people capable to do it with a reasonable level of precision.

    Personally i have been classified by a really big number of observers until now (in different moments with different clothes, haircut, and general "scenarios") : you would be amazed by the variety of comments i received.......i've been collocated in a geographical range from France to Ukraina in a West-East continuum and from Bavaria/Austria to Bosnia/Herzegovina in a North-South one
    (btw, only Agrippa, Frans josef, Gareth [and Glenlivet ] guessed the right nation and the exact zone.....)




    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I think you need to travel more, with all due respect

    I think you haven't travelled enough (and not Glenlivet). With all due respect.
    Last edited by Huzar; Monday, September 26th, 2005 at 07:18 AM.

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    Even west and east-Mediterranid is something which is made up. Some in Turkey look Atlanto-Med and there are people in western Europe who have nasal prominence of what would except from an eastern group, but these are called Dinaroid, even if they are long-headed. It is all nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    The only think I would agree with is the paternal genetic lineage from northern Iberia up to western Scandinavia, and in this respect Iberia differs from Greece. One can also see it in the physical types. Italy stand between.
    Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by KULL
    Absolutely. I agree completely on this statement . It's logic and credible. There are really few people capable to do it with a reasonable level of precision.
    You would say so, because you're Italian and would ideally like to be associated with Northerns.

    I think you haven't travelled enough (and not Glenlivet). With all due respect.
    Of course I haven't travelled enough yet. I travel abroad every year to a new country and will continue to do so.

    Yet by this time, I could pick out a naked Italian from a Dane without much head-scratching - I promise you.

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    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    You would say so, because you're Italian and would ideally like to be associated with Northerns.

    I'm North-Italian (Some say "Padanian" too), that is a bit different........... If you had really travelled in your life you surely would know.

    Anyway, my dear Loki, you associate too strictly a nationality with a phenotype. What you mean exactly for "typically italian", Loki ? Let me guess : a distinctly short-gracile, dark/swarthy, hooknosed and hairy person ? Well if it's so, i'm NOT italian, then . At least not your stereotypical image of the italian , which coincides perfectly with southern Italy, but not with the area where i live (The ALPS, more precisely, and not the mediterranean sea, if you have some basilar notions of geography.For your information the Alps, are a geographical zone in common between Switzerland, France, North-Italy, Austria/SouthGermany. Reflect on this). You don't distinguish between north and south Italy and you're affected by the most common stereotypes, i fear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Yet by this time, i could pick out a naked italian from a Dane without much head-scratching - I promise you.
    A southern Italian from a scandinavian ? I agree with you.

    A northern-Italian from a French or an Austrian ? I dubt strongly you could distinguish, Loki.........
    Last edited by Huzar; Monday, September 26th, 2005 at 12:17 PM.

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    Saddam hussein? LOL [IMG]images/smilies/pantheon_europa/tongue01.gif[/IMG] What are you talking about?
    I'm just trying to use him as an example of an arab middle easterner. Heck, you could probably see people who look like that in bavaria, and they wouldn't look out of place if their hair and eyebrows looked just a little more european (texture, not colour).
    I think the boundaries between the middle east and europe are mainly cultural. I mean sure there are plenty of people out there that get called 'arab' and 'semitic' and they look very different to europeans (sudish). But if you took alot of european women, put a shaul around their head, you wouldn't give them a second look on the street.
    Just look at cat stevens. A greek. But with his islamic beard, clothing and cap,
    he looks like a typical mid-eastern muslim.
    In ancient times, light eyes and fair hair, even freckles and ruddiness, wasn't such an unusual thing in the mid-east. The phoenicians were known by their light eyes. And the moabites by their red hair. King david the hebrew had fair hair, fair skin and blue eyes. Jesus is described as being fair haired and light eyed, by historians of the time. There is a legend of muhammed seeing him on an astral journey, and he was described as ruddy and freckled, so that was obviously how people in the mid-east knew his appearance.
    The typical arab is dark haired, dark eyed, light skinned. They always saw themselves as white and they still do. You should see the way arabs commented on negros. Muhammed himself said that the ethiopians had heads like raisins . Heck, the Qu'ran even says people with a white face get into heaven and people with a black face go to hell.

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    Post Re: Southern Europeans, the Mediterranean race and the Europid concept

    I thought that myself, but I can explain it better...

    I was not speaking of a western and eastern Mediterranid. Greeks are much more than just Mediterranid, and so are the northern Iberians.

    There are some major differences in deep genetic ancestry (the old Palaeolithic vs Neolithic discussion) between Mediterranean (this large regions is not just made up of Mediterranid types) populations, but this is not seen in the physique, perhaps because most Mediterranid forms go to the same Natufid source. morfrain_encilgar and Frans would probably tell you something similar. Morphological types are more modern than the genetic lineages we might share. They are just a snapshot of evolution. It can change in a few generations but the genetic imprint that stays the same for much longer. We can say more when we have better information on the autosomal DNA of Mediterranean populations.

    Furthermore, Northern Iberia which I mentioned, is not predominantly Mediterranid, but Berid, and somewhat Nord-Atlantid and slightly Alpinid (or alpinised Berids). There are northern Iberians that may pass for Irish, but it is because of coarse, only partly depigmented Cro-Magnoid elements in both populations, and not West-Mediterranid (or "actual" Mediterranid, i.e Insular type). There are also Atlanto-Meds not only in western Europe, but also the Balkans. Coon recognised this. They are actually not very high-skulled. The so-called Pontids of Russia (southern?) are quite blonde, higher-skulled and different from these in Bulgaria and Romania.

    I am not saying all others would not be able to tell and I can. Anthropologists did tests on how people can judge Europeans. See We Europeans by Huxley et al. I did not do very well. I had around 60 % correct.

    It is best to stay humble on these matters. Few have great abilities to tell the origin of people. It is common how real opinions come out if no info is given on recent ethnic origin. Loki knows this too. I can give numerous examples.

    I also do not think many people here know how Syrians and Lebanese people can look. You would not be able to distinguish them from many southern European Mediterranids. They have more Taurid, for sure, and they are on average much lighter (surprise surprise), but why I can distinguish them is because of their experessions and how they dress, not strictly phenotype.

    I will give you an example and you will see what I mean. Maybe you have seen the film Addicted to Love. Tcheky Karyo play a French chef called Anton. I thought that he is typical French (partly because of his cultural expressions and the other is that the same traits are found in some Europid regions, in this case Taurid, but not only) when I first saw the film. I am positive that you would think that too. I found out his ancestry only later when I searched on his name.

    http://images.google.se/images?svnum...=Tcheky+Karyo+

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried
    Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

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