Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20

Thread: More Support for Independant Scotland

  1. #11
    Account Inactive
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last Online
    Thursday, May 3rd, 2012 @ 09:29 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Mainly Yorkshire
    Country
    England England
    State
    Yorkshire Yorkshire
    Location
    Yorkshire
    Gender
    Age
    33
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,111
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Méldmir View Post
    What's your take on 'Self-standing' for a change?
    Like anything that occurs in the political arena, 'independence' is a merely nominal privilege, the pursuit of which distracts and ensnares lesser minds until attained, and the acquisition of which tempers, however momentarily, the ever-threatening discontent of those same lesser minds -- after which point they'll adopt some new, equally vacuous struggle. This, of course, works against the possibility of anything productive ever being attained. It's an endless process, one that offers no solution to the cultural and racial degeneration of Scotland (or whatever other place is in question). Modern Scottish culture is obviously still going to remain the general mishmash of modern Scottish culture, a splash of deeper-rooted Scottish culture, a fat, greasy blob of American culture, a pint of general British culture, and an unwanted spit of 'ethnic culture', in addition to the various regional variations and the highland/lowland split -- little different from the mishmash found everywhere in modern Britain. The EU will still dominate immigration policy, and Hollywood will still dominate the TV.

    As for whether I'd like to see Britain splintered, then no. I don't see other Britons as foreigners. A basic common culture's grown around the centuries-old ties between us: common worldviews, common character traits, common sense of humour. I don't think it's healthy for the English to deny their indigenous British heritage, or non-English Britons to deny their Germanic/continental ancestry either, and this at heart seems to be what drives this modern push for 'liberation' from one another. Other British ancestry is common in England. It's part of my own traceable heritage, not to mention what's untraceable. It'd hurt a lot of people's self-concept to begin to see themselves as 'mixed-nationality' as opposed to 'English, with a bit of other British', or 'Scottish, with a bit of English' etc. -- and this will only forge a whole other segment of the population into insecure self-doubters, with no firm position on race and ethnicity -- fodder for the Left.

    It also all seems a little artificial to me. In the last few hundred years (or pre-1995, if you will), there was never much identification between Scots and 'wider Celtic Britain', or much antipathy between them and the English -- and certainly no antipathy for the Empire, to which they merrily contributed. The kind of Scot you still find in the higher ranks of British Army today represents the views of the vast majority of Scots in the 19th, 18th, and maybe even 17th centuries -- pride in and patriotism for Britain. Scots weren't at all happy with the deluge of tatty famine Irish in the 19th century (nor were the Welsh, for that matter). They considered the Irish beneath them, and the English as equals. And this respect was returned: the race science of the 19th century pitted the English and Scots against the 'backwards Irish' and 'mediocre, primitive Welsh'. I'm not saying I endorse this view, but it was simply how it was. And, of course, we see the natural unease between Irish and Scots yet in modern Ulster. I've also known several Glaswegians who were more than a little offended to be referred to as 'Scottish'.

    The modern 'victim mentality' is fairly laughable to anyone who understands the contributions Scots made to the British Empire, and how respected they were as members of it. It's unbefitting. It has no real history in Scotland: its modern incarnation was obviously borrowed from Ireland, which itself modelled its struggles for independence on the popular strifes of Jews, Blacks etc. Personally, if I were a Scot I'd be embarrassed by the whole ordeal. But if that's what the majority wants, then fine. They shouldn't be held hostage, even if they are being held hostage in a relatively comfortable two star hotel (which was once at least a four, but has since downgraded for everyone), and don't realise they won't be able to upgrade by walking across the street into another two star hotel, which looks shockingly similar to the one they were just in, and, like the other, shows definite signs of being downgraded to a one star in the very near future, and will probably collapse and squash everyone by the end of the week.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    Friday, March 30th, 2018 @ 11:10 PM
    Ethnicity
    Gothic
    Ancestry
    Scandinavia, Britain
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Family
    Engaged
    Posts
    677
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Thanks, for the interesting post. But my intial post was actually meant to be 'Self-standing' as a mere synonym for the word 'Independent', haha. Sorry I didn't make it more clear.

    But yes, the countries of the British Isles have relly been in a political and cultural union since the Norman invasions of the 11th-13th century. The act of 1707 was not significant other than reinforcing what had already been around more politically. So yes there's been around 800 years of shared culture of these countries, which is important of course. That's why I sometimes see the Irish as being fence-walkers. They are proud to be free Irish and being independent from the so called oppressive British, yet they still sit there with their English language and many English traditions. I'm not asking them to tear down all the Victorian and Georgian architecture, but I'd take their nationalism more seriously if they tried to do more than just minor attempts at going back to what differates them from the English, ie being Gaelic. I have respect for those Irish people that change their names, like Haugey to O'hEochagain, Joyce to Seoige, Murphy to Ó Murchú etc.

    So yes, Scotland can choose to remain just a pseudo-England with some kilts and tartans on the side, or they could make a serious attempt in some parts to be more Gaelic. The Lowlands are of course English anyway. I would still support a self-standing Scotland, either way. I don't think the old Normans should still be the ones that define and dictate what Britain is to be. They pretty much created Britishness, and I feel those at the bottom, the average Englishman and Scotsman, now should have a voice in what they perceive themselves as. Britishness has alwyas come from the top down, and that's why you've fiound high-ranking people perhaps more readily viewing themselves as British, whilst the lower classes have been more keen on their regional identity. The most distant clans of Scotland, saw themselves seperately from others even quite long after the Normans tried to centralize things. They even were loyal to Norway, and not Scotland, till 1263, not long before the time of Willaim Wallace.

    I'm just curious, you say the vast majority of Scots felt British some time back, but in those days, didn't almost everyone feel just a strong identification with their region? I heard someone say that 2-300 years ago, many Swedes had no idea what their Swedish flag looked like, for example. I think this indetifaction with the state and flag is a fairly recent phenonema, perhaps 100 years old.

  3. #13
    Account Inactive
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last Online
    Thursday, May 3rd, 2012 @ 09:29 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Mainly Yorkshire
    Country
    England England
    State
    Yorkshire Yorkshire
    Location
    Yorkshire
    Gender
    Age
    33
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Posts
    2,111
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Méldmir View Post
    That's why I sometimes see the Irish as being fence-walkers. They are proud to be free Irish and being independent from the so called oppressive British, yet they still sit there with their English language and many English traditions. I'm not asking them to tear down all the Victorian and Georgian architecture, but I'd take their nationalism more seriously if they tried to do more than just minor attempts at going back to what differates them from the English, ie being Gaelic. I have respect for those Irish people that change their names, like Haugey to O'hEochagain, Joyce to Seoige, Murphy to Ó Murchú etc.
    This is why independence is fairly meaningless. It won't change people's everyday lives a fraction. Ireland isn't any more culturally Gaelic now than it was at the beginning of the 20th century. Indeed, it's much less. They're just part of the modern Western world now, eager to see the next Michael Bay crap-o-rama, while queuing up to buy T-Pain's latest single. Ethnically, they're also worse off than they'd have been if they'd stayed in the union. British Ulster is more homogeneous than Eire (well, as long as we consider all people of British Isles descent ethnically similar enough to be classed as one). The EU has specific designs on Ireland now, because it's its own political unit. Northern Ireland isn't, and so it escapes having its own peculiar quota of immigrants. The bulk of the UK's immigrants are soaked into S.E. England: it's their haven -- why go elsewhere? But if Scotland, Wales, Cornwall were to become independent entities, this could no longer be the case. Also keep in mind that the SNP (who, like Sinn Fein, have zero ethnic interests beyond a dislike of the English) would trip over themselves in trying to establish the new Scotland as a modern, tolerant, diverse nation, and would go to great lengths to shed any contrary image.

    So yes, Scotland can choose to remain just a pseudo-England with some kilts and tartans on the side, or they could make a serious attempt in some parts to be more Gaelic.
    It's a mistake to say that to be British is to be a pseudo-England. England never had a monopoly on being British; that's a misconception brought about by so much modern dissociation and scapegoating. The only factor that ever conceivably gave England a larger share of Britishness than Scotland was the location of the capital. People tend to assume that cultures remain stagnant unless forced upon from without. They assume that if Scotland hadn't been 'culturally raped' by England, everyone would still be a clansman. But the truth is that culture and ethnic consciousness develop, and united under a common governance, with common interests, Scottish culture began to evolve in step with (read: not in imitation of) that of England. (It shouldn't be overlooked that English sensibilities also altered considerably within the same time-frame.)

    Under the current Marxist interpretation of British history, it's hard to frame the question in other terms than 'English: rulers, everyone else: ruled'. According to this simplification of history, any Scot who feels British is a 'traitor' and 'sell-out'. The actual truth, however, is that Scots were voluntary members of the union, and, as such, consciousness of being Scottish never jarred with consciousness of being British (just as it didn't in England).

    I'm just curious, you say the vast majority of Scots felt British some time back, but in those days, didn't almost everyone feel just a strong identification with their region? I heard someone say that 2-300 years ago, many Swedes had no idea what their Swedish flag looked like, for example. I think this indetifaction with the state and flag is a fairly recent phenonema, perhaps 100 years old.
    It's a little different for Britain, since everyone was conscious of being part of something huge. People had multiple identities, but like I said above, when they were voluntary identities, they didn't conflict. A Yorkshireman, for example, could feel Yorkshire, English, and British without compunction. But perhaps if Leftists were for whatever reason to hijack the debate on Yorkshireness, I'm sure they could concoct some reason to label this apparent harmonious identity 'false consciousness', manipulated by such and such dominant classes.

    The truth is that the English and the Scots were very enthusiastic members of the Empire. They were its engine, so to speak. The Welsh sort of sat the whole thing out, though this is probably a little unfair to them, since they were a small, fairly rural population. Only the Irish have any real right to grievance, since they didn't put much in, and didn't get much out. They were 'occupied' and held to ransom in a way that Scotland and Wales certainly weren't. This modern false equivalence of Scottish and Irish 'struggles' stems from a historically invalid identification of all 'Celtic' peoples. Scots felt British in a way that the Irish never did, so much so that we're at a point where Scottish nationalists (and Mel Gibson ) need to dredge up some 700 hundred year old antipathy to convince themselves otherwise.

  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Online
    Friday, March 30th, 2018 @ 11:10 PM
    Ethnicity
    Gothic
    Ancestry
    Scandinavia, Britain
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Family
    Engaged
    Posts
    677
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post

    It's a mistake to say that to be British is to be a pseudo-England. England never had a monopoly on being British; that's a misconception brought about by so much modern dissociation and scapegoating. The only factor that ever conceivably gave England a larger share of Britishness than Scotland was the location of the capital. People tend to assume that cultures remain stagnant unless forced upon from without. They assume that if Scotland hadn't been 'culturally raped' by England, everyone would still be a clansman. But the truth is that culture and ethnic consciousness develop, and united under a common governance, with common interests, Scottish culture began to evolve in step with (read: not in imitation of) that of England. (It shouldn't be overlooked that English sensibilities also altered considerably within the same time-frame.)
    Yes, but if you think from the perspective of an anti-English Scotsman, it would be a bit hypocritical to keep those traditions that actually did come from England. I guess it depends on how a person looks at it. A Scotsman might see the Normans as English, whilst another proud Scotsman might see them as a part of Scottish culture, but still remain anti-English. I don't know how the Scots reason, really, how purist they are. But I do understand your reasoning that these things belong to both nations equally, having developed together. I just want to know how purist the Scots are, if they agree with you. But since their hero, Robert the Bruce, was a Norman, I guess most of them do Difficult for me as a foreigner to know this. But I'm aware some stereotypically British things did come from Scotland, like tweed (So can English nationalists wear that?! ).

    So I guess the bottom line is, what is English, what is Scottish, and what can be considered both, and who is of what opinion? I do still think that Irish nationalists, that see themselves being Gaelic, are being pseudo-English by having English as their main language, even though that nation did develop for a long time with other countries in Britain, most Irish nationalists see everything back to the Normans as being foreign and English. 'For 800 years, we fought you without fear', as the IRA sings it

  5. #15
    New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Online
    Friday, April 13th, 2012 @ 11:26 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Nordic; Germany, Scotland, and Norway
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    In transit
    Gender
    Family
    In a steady relationship
    Politics
    Constitutional Nationalist
    Posts
    11
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Exclamation

    When I went to Scotland I found that the north I went the more nationalistic they were. The capital was very cosmopolitan, while out in the islands and Inverness were very connected to their roots.

    Personally I do hope they achieve independence.

  6. #16
    Senior Member KingBritannia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Online
    Wednesday, July 11th, 2012 @ 08:37 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Cymraeg
    Ancestry
    English, Welsh
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    Gogledd Cymru
    Gender
    Posts
    37
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    I just don't understand why Scotland wants to be independent. Our cultures are basically the same with only a few differences. And I'm sure they benefit more by being part of the UK more than if they went it alone.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mvix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Online
    Monday, December 5th, 2016 @ 03:12 PM
    Ethnicity
    Icelandic
    Country
    Iceland Iceland
    Gender
    Posts
    151
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    I heard this in the news today and if the Scottish people choose to do so I fully support them in their decision. The news said that Scotland was strengthening their connections with the Nordic countries as they feel as they have more in common with us.
    It's been my experience here in Iceland that we feel closest to the Scottish from any of the British Isles. If you choose to break away I hope that you do as much to save your language.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dead Eye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Online
    Thursday, December 22nd, 2016 @ 06:45 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English
    Country
    England England
    Location
    Devon
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Posts
    176
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    As an Englishman i do not wish to see the Union being broken up.....buuut......i feel like it most certainly will.I have seen maps of what the governments of the world wish to do when we have a one world government and England and Scotland are owned by different parts of Europe.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Austin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Online
    Tuesday, December 13th, 2011 @ 04:36 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Scottish/German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Texas Texas
    Location
    Austin
    Gender
    Age
    31
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    work sucks
    Politics
    ethno nationalism
    Religion
    Catholic Texas German
    Posts
    474
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Wonderful. Free Scotland. Let it be released from the London-Jewish hell that currently rapes it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Wulfsige's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Online
    Friday, December 16th, 2011 @ 05:25 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Englisc
    Country
    England England
    State
    Wessex Wessex
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Gender
    Age
    54
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Rune maker
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    119
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    I think many are under estimating the northern irish, many are very loyal to the British state as are many scots, the protestants. Go to glasgow and ask all the glasgow rangers fans what they think. Religion and politics go hand in hand in scotland and northern ireland.
    Most scots wouldnt vote logically on the subject they would vote with their hearts, some things are just too deep rooted. Just like a labour party supporter there isnt nothing in the world to persuade that person to vote conservative and vice-a versa.

    As an englishman i am undecided to be honest, i can see pros and cons for either outcome but i think they will get it with a little media spinning by the SNP.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Why Do You People Support NS?
    By Xanados in forum Questions About Germanics
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 08:23 AM
  2. Warning Against An Independant Scotland
    By Oresai in forum Scotland
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Sunday, October 19th, 2008, 06:20 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: Saturday, August 18th, 2007, 01:14 PM
  4. Support Denmark!
    By Wiseman in forum Denmark
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: Wednesday, April 5th, 2006, 04:36 PM
  5. Help: Support endurance with...?
    By Blutwölfin in forum Health, Fitness & Nutrition
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Saturday, October 15th, 2005, 02:05 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •