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Thread: Thoughts on Suicide?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutlawsnUnderdogs View Post
    You are not truly living if you fear death.... We are all born slowly dying and not one of us knows if we will be here tomorrow, seems to me the thing to worry about is not taking chances and truly living...
    I agree with this up to a point. It may not be the length of your years but the quality of them which is the most important factor in finding satisfaction in life.

    However,

    "The great father rolled the skein of your life a long time ago, go and hide in a hole if you must, but you will not live one instant longer"
    This seems to be saying that the chances of a premature death are the same for an Alaskan crab fisherman as for a librarian; a conclusion not borne out by insurance statistics.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    I already related this story in another thread but I will share it here also:

    Evidence emerged after the Waco massacre in 1993 that many of the besieged committed suicide during those last fiery moments. If you recall the entire compound went up in flames in a matter of seconds. Afterward the media accused them of having taken the cowards way out. They were immediately shut up when one of the survivors explained that the reason they killed themselves was because they were burning alive. The flames trapped them so quickly that the people inside, including numerous children, had no chance of escape. Many of those who committed suicide turned the guns on some of the children first in order to prevent them from suffering. Sadly, most of them weren't so lucky.

    This to me is a good example of when suicide is a necessary thing without having the stigma attached.
    I would like to add to this story a bit of some facts that I have gathered on my own.

    1) The Government was essentially the one that set the Fire, by pumping a potentially flammable gas into a confined area, where mind you they were using Lanterns because the Government had cut off the power supply.

    2) The Same Jewish Child Protective Services Bitch!,
    Namely one Marleigh Meisner.


    that was involved in this tragedy was also involved in instigation an almost identical stand off against a group of Mormons.

    It was this that forced me to reconsider the governments motives in this incident, and my current belief is that it was in fact a act of Genocide, perpetrated by a Jewish, Leftist, and anti-Germanic Child Protective Services.

    Funny coincidence that all the children happened to be not only white Germanic, but from the photos that I seen, very Nordic in Appearance.

    Granted most of the people here are not, Mormons, or are you Branch Davidians, but I grant you it would not stop these Peticular bunch from killing you and smearing your name.


    Check out some of the Truth Here

  3. #13
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    I've never understood the 'coward's way out' position. Fear evolved as an emotion precisely to ward organisms from injury and, ultimately, death. To stare death in the face isn't cowardice, since cowardice is the succumbing to fear. People like to build up the idea of 'facing life and soldiering on despite adversity' as opposed to 'chickening out of the race', but the truth is that it's relatively easy to go on living a life of misery, because no matter how prolonged that misery might be, it's dispersed throughout the rest of your days. No given point that person will ever experience is going to match the pure unbridled fear of that moment of overcoming everything your organism was ever built to avoid and stepping into that ultimate unknown.

    To me, suicide is always a tragedy. It's a tragedy that anyone -- and often it's the deepest and most beautiful among us -- can be so miserable as to be compelled to quit life. That level of internal torment is hard for many, and certainly the less introspective and isolated, to grasp, but boy do they like to judge.

    I think the lack of sympathy that commonly greets news of a suicide, the hideous mocking and judgement that follows, is possibly the ugliest human vice, and in many ways justifies the suicide victim's choice to leave such a vile mob. That said, I do think suicide is very often selfish. Anyone who leaves behind a family, especially when those people aren't even the root of his misery, is undeniably cruel, and I have less -- but still a lot of -- sympathy for him. Often, though, it's the lack of anyone to care about them that's that actually drives them to suicide.

    I'd never consider suicide myself (I didn't even when I suffered from a bout of manic depression, and I certainly don't think about it now I'm relatively content in life) but I don't judge others for making the decision. I would always try and convince them to have another go at life, though, and if they needed a friend to get them through, I'd happily be that person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    To me, suicide is always a tragedy. It's a tragedy that anyone -- and often it's the deepest and most beautiful among us -- can be so miserable as to be compelled to quit life. That level of internal torment is hard for many, and certainly the less introspective and isolated, to grasp, but boy do they like to judge.

    I think the lack of sympathy that commonly greets news of a suicide, the hideous mocking and judgement that follows, is possibly the ugliest human vice, and in many ways justifies the suicide victim's choice to leave such a vile mob. That said, I do think suicide is very often selfish. Anyone who leaves behind a family, especially when those people aren't even the root of his misery, is undeniably cruel, and I have less -- but still a lot of -- sympathy for him. Often, though, it's the lack of anyone to care about them that's that actually drives them to suicide.
    I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I'm going to comment on the bolded portions, because there's stuff in there I take issue with, and since you generally have some of the best insights on Skadi it'd be a shame if it went unchallenged and taken as the irrefutable truth on the matter.

    First is that I dislike the criticism of humanity as being too judgemental. I find it's mostly used by those with ugly, depraved lifestyles who incessantly rail against what has ever been seen as right by society. I know you're a libertarian so you'll no doubt disagree with me here, but a healthy society needs to have social stigma directed against antisocial behavior, which leads me into something more on topic.

    The problem with suicide is that it almost always has a negative impact, as most people--even the most lonely--have relationships of substance with other people. Those who commit suicide either don't see how (i.e. they don't realize there are people who care about them and will be devastated by their death) or they just don't have a modicum of concern for how those people might feel if they do kill themselves. The former are generally the teenagers and young adults who feel alienated from the world, and the latter are those who usually have a family, abuse one substance or another, and don't care to live life any longer, and it's this latter group that comprises most of the suicides I've encountered in real life and epitomizes the selfish and irresponsible nature of suicide. The brilliant mind that decides to kill themselves because of utter isolation and despair is a rarity.

    I also feel you're hyperbolizing the judgement passed on suicides, because, in my experience, it's been quite the opposite, where there's an overwhelming influx of feigned sympathy for the person, even if that person was an absolute bastard for severely damaging the lives of whomever they left behind.

    If that makes me judgemental, fine, but I will never condone suicide as long as we still have a social structure built on our intimate relationships with other people.

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    Looking at it in my case I can see a point where I am either vegetative or terminally ill or just at the very end. I could see myself committing suicide so as no longer to be either a financial or an emotional burden on my family.

    Otherwise I have never been at a point in my life where I saw that as a viable option.

    As to others who do it due to emotional or financial crises and such I feel sad for them but I don't condemn it as I am unable to experience it from their perspective.

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    Once you have overcome your fear of death and are ready to take your life at any point you choose life signifficantly changes. He can do now whatever he wants, without much conseuquences. Too dangerous ? Who cares, its not like you want to live anyway. Debt at the bank ? Who cares, its not like i am artound to actually have to pay for all that. It opens you up to experiences a normal person would really have trouble to have for fear of consequences. Unprotected sex ? As if any std has the potential to scare you. Drugs ? Who cares if i get hooked and OD has also lost all its horrors. Basejumping or any other adrenalin junkie sport ? Why not. He is actively planning a tour through afghanistan. I have never see him happier. He says if he is evert in a situation where he feels he fucked up enough he will finally end his life. I frind that a strangely alluring philosophy
    Alot of these experiences are dependent not so much on personal choice as they are on opportunity. What happens if he finds that those opportunities aren't open to him (whatever they may be, it needn't be those listed here)? Basing your continued existence on fantastical experiences yet to be realized or the prospects of them occuring might work for a while, but eventually you will have to come to terms with your actual, day-to-day existence. This is in reference to the last part about it being an alluring philosophy. To me this amounts to day-dreaming, and I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but in a cautionary way, in that it does not serve as a sensible guide in life nor does it facilitate one coming to terms with one's existence. We all have hopes and dreams, some of them we know to be out of reach and impossible to achieve, yet we still hold on to them, nurture them whilst still being grounded in reality and dealing with life as it stands. Having reasonable expectations on life and learning to work with the opportunities that life has to offer is key.

    I have never understood suicide in the way that it is used in modern society, nor the people who commit suicide. In some cases I can understand it, if a person has suffered an extreme trauma, mental or physical. But in most cases this does not appear to be the case from my casual and highly unscientific observations. In most cases it seems as though there exists no obvious reason as to why the person would want to kill himself, if we disregard the mandatory "depression" diagnosis. To me it seems as though suicide becomes the consequence of certain thought patterns in the individual, and that the "power of the mind" plays a large part in letting on the depression that sometimes end in suicide. After all, humans are known to believe in just about anything under the sun, and to do so with a passion. If a person believes in the central ideas that seem to be common among depressive/suicidal individuals (my life is crap, nobody loves me, i have nothing to live for, the future is pitch black, i dont deserve to live etc.), then it is reasonable to think that they can become strong enough to influence a person's passions and feelings.

    I therefor view suicide first and foremost as a failure of the individual towards himself. He has turned his mind against himself, his mind then influencing his emotions. This is not a condemnation of the individual but my attempt at making sense personally of depression and suicide, both of which I am a stranger to. It seems to me that the only person that can keep you on the straight and narrow, is yourself. If it was reassurance from others that those depressed and suicidal needed to ultimately walk away from their inner darkness and embrace the light again then it wouldn't be as serious of a problem that it is. But if the war is waged within oneself, with oneself against oneself, then it becomes clear why the answer to the problem lies not in the outside world but on the inside of the individual. Beyond a certain point it will probably be difficult to step back from the abyss, but based on my understanding of depression and suicidal thoughts, these are not formed over night or are inherent in those individuals. They have started off more or less with a normal state of mind, and drifted over time into a thinking which is self-destructive in the literal sense. Where their insticts of self-preservation should step in and safe themselves from themselves, this does not happen and instead you are allowed to progress down a path which leads to a decreased quality of life which in turn might stoke the depression further.

    My point then is that suicide is wrongful from the perspective of oneself in that it represents the culmination of a war against oneself. With people suffering extreme trauma it's one thing, and those people I can understand as I don't expect people to be able to hold together mentally after such events. But in those cases where there is no satisfying explanation or reason why the person would want to end his or her life I view this from the perspective outlined above. They themselves are ultimately their own destroyer, and so should also have the power in their hands to reverse the process, at least up to some point, which I will leave undefined for the time being, beyond which it might be too late, resulting in the person ending his life. With mankind's capacity for thinking and reflecting about herself comes also the potential for suboptimal thought patterns that conflict with the interests of the individual herself and the basic instincts of self-preservation. That the correct response to these thoughts should be suicide is a notion which I strongly object to. But the problem then lies not in the suicide itself but the path towards it, and the individual's responses and actions (mental and physical) preceeding it.

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    I have no problem with suicide, it can be sadness or a ritual experiment. My high school girlfriend was found hanging earlier this year. She had a lot to live for, so that is sad. We all think either her drug addict abusive husband did it or drove her to it. I think I would harm him should we cross paths, glad I live far away, I'm not going to jail again. But suicide as ritual, to trancend into change or extinction/void, well that just begs my curiosity, I always want to know more.
    May my failures be my own, may my victories be for my folk

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    It is a tricky subject. My best friend committed suicide, and I had the unfortunate luck of finding his remains. The hardest thing I ever had to do was inform his daughter, who is also my God daughter. I pray no one ever has to do that, it broke my heart and still weighs heavy on me to this day. Good post thanks for bringing back the memories, that is how we live on. He was a good friend just wish I could have prevented this.

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    I would like to thank TSPASGAN for his point. Strangely too many here have a rather narrow idea about why someoone would commit suicide, or what suicide even is. Let me quote another website here ( newsgroup alt.suicide.methods,alt.suicide.holiday, talk.euthanasia: a practical guide to suicide ) :


    we need to devise scenarios for the typical experiences people are having when they are suicidal, like those who:

    * are sick and dying anyway and want an easy way
    out that doesn't involve a lot of mobility

    * are depressed and can't find the motivation to
    go great distances

    * are disgusted with life and want a way out that
    isn't too painful, messy or likely to fail

    * want to die for any reason and are afraid of
    being discovered, seen as a coward, or judged as
    evil by those she loves and is obsessed with

    * want to go out in a blaze of glory, making a
    strong statement against all their enemies

    * want revenge on some society, group or person,
    and want to use their suicide as a means of
    achieving this

    * want to become an enigma or a media sensation,
    challenging the boundaries of narcissus
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

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    Interesting. As far as my situation is concerned it would be a cowardly way out. I have a wife and 3 (soon 4) kids. I could never do that to them. I have no fear of death. Whether this is a good characteristic or a flaw I am not sure. I have stared down the barrel of a gun, been in a warzone, seen death first hand from violence and drugs and natural causes, maybe that has eased my worries of it. I do not seek it out however. I believe we must seperate that. Being afraid of death or seeking it. Death may not be a release, it may only make it worse for you, no one can possibly know, so though I do not fear it, I do not seek it. It must be considered on an individual basis as to whether it is a valid option. Waco, yes it was valid. An alcoholic father, it was cowardice. My uncle committed suicide mainly due to drugs and a terrible wife and kids who treated him like crap. I still believe it was a cowards move on his part. Most worldly pitfalls can be overcome and the challenge of overcoming it is a character building excersize. Anyway, it is just my thoughts on it.

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