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Thread: Frisian & English: Comparisons & Contrasts

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    Post Frisian & English: Comparisons & Contrasts

    Post your comparisons and contrasts between Frisian and English, linguistically-speaking.

    I'll start from this post: http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...6&postcount=38 ...@ Sybren:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    [Praat:] It means 'speak'. So 'Praat mar Frysk' roughly translates in 'Please speak Frisian', but not in a demanding or even asking tone, more in a 'you can if you want' kind of way.
    When you clued me in on 'speak,' I immediately thought of the Eng. word 'prattle' (to chatter), which is also akin to (Eng.) 'prate' (to chatter); but the former apparently came into modern Eng. from modern Plattdüütsch and the later came into Eng. from Middelnederlands ; so neither of these modern Eng. terms descend from Anglo-Saxon (Old English)--I discovered this perusing my A.-S. dictionary. This has me speculating that these cognate terms like 'Praat' , 'prattle' , 'prate' , et al. may also be truly indigenously alien to continental Ooldsassisch as well. If this is valid, then the prime and likely Germanic root for such words it seems to me are FRISIAN/FRYSK...any thoughts? I don't suppose an Aldfrysk dictionary would help us in this conjecture. (:-\
    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    'Klei' means 'Clay', i actually accidentally wrote the Dutch word 'Klei', in Frisian it is 'Klaai'. This points to the type of ground in the north and western areas of Fryslān. When a Frisian is born in the areas of Fryslān that has a clay soil, we say this: 'hy/sy is śt 'e klaai lutsen', which means 'he/she is pulled from the clay'
    The soil in the Fryske Wālden does not consist of clay, but rather 'Sān' (Sand) and 'Vean' (Peat).
    Ahhh, well the Dutch 'Klei' is harder for an Englishman to read/understand than the Frisian 'Klaai'...no doubt about that from an English perspective. That sentence is relatively easy for an Eng. to understand...both written and spoken except the 'lutsen' part, that's very alien to modern Eng., but the A.-S. 'lutan' (to bend/stoop/decline/bow-down) just might be its cognate, although the meanings are basically opposite to each other--no mod. Eng. words stem from this word, i.e., it's 'dead.'

    Question: does the Frysk 'sy' sound like the Eng. 'she' too (with the 'sh' sound or like the 'sch' sound auf deutsch)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    Thank you for your posts You are actually helping in making a Frisian sub-section more feasible with asking these questions Your enthousiasm in your posts is great by the way!!
    You're very welcome dude, and ja, it's true it was all apart of my 'grand design!', LOL! Hey, thanks...I'll just blame my enthusiasm on the "Frisian-in-me," hehe.

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    Aka kentynet Northumbria's Avatar
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    Praat
    In Northern England we have "Prat" and "Pillock" which refer to some idiot, usually someone who's just do something very stupid.

    Ahhh, well the Dutch 'Klei' is harder for an Englishman to read/understand than the Frisian 'Klaai'...no doubt about that from an English perspective.
    Yes, the Frisian one sounds closer the way I construct it.

    The soil in the Fryske Wālden does not consist of clay, but rather 'Sān' (Sand) and 'Vean' (Peat).
    'Wālden' - related to the term "Wolds" in some parts of England I presume, an archaic word for low hills I think, such as the Lincolnshire wolds.

    'Sān' is very close to sand but I can't think of any alternative word for 'Peat' which sounds like 'Vean', all I get is 'Rain' and that is if I'm constructing it right.

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    Thumbs Up Great Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbria View Post
    In Northern England we have "Prat" and "Pillock" which refer to some idiot, usually someone who's just do something very stupid.
    I'm aware of "prat" on your side of the Atlantic, although surely 90%+ of all Eng.-speaking Americans have no clue about it. Hey, consider also in connection to this that it is quite common for idiots to run their mouths a lot--thus these "p-word" connections to speaking and idiocy.
    'Wālden' - related to the term "Wolds" in some parts of England I presume, an archaic word for low hills I think, such as the Lincolnshire wolds.
    This is an excellent point indeed, I'd overlooked "wolds," which has as you state long ago fallen out of general use, and herein America it is never or almost never used or encountered.
    'Sān' is very close to sand but I can't think of any alternative word for 'Peat' which sounds like 'Vean', all I get is 'Rain' and that is if I'm constructing it right.
    Aye, 'Sān' and 'sand' are almost mirror images of each other, and I can't dig up any English connections to 'Vean' either whether consulting a modern Eng. dictionary or my Ang.-Sax. one (and since there is, apparently, only ONE known "v" word among A.-S. diction--so one has to consult the "w" words). I know one can be tempted into thinking 'vein' as in 'vein of gold' might be somehow cognate to 'Vean,' but the former is, I think, without question of Latin-root. I now wonder just what the Plattdüütsch dictionaries have to write/say about 'Vean' or 'Vean'-connections...if anything.

    Again...great reply/post, Northumbria.
    Last edited by +Suomut+; Monday, January 9th, 2012 at 04:10 PM. Reason: correction

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    Sorry guys. I now see i made a mistake. It's not 'vean', but 'fean'.

    You should think i would know how to correctly write something like this, but Frisians don't use written Frisian very much.

    'Fean' also isn't pronounced with the 'ea' like in 'Peat', but with the 'ea' like in 'ear'.

    'Praten' also comes back in Swedish 'Pratar'. Strangely this isn't seen in Norwegian (instead: 'Snakker').


    I don't think 'wālden' has to do with low hills. There are no low hills in the wālden area and i don't think there were. It just means 'woods' i guess, after the woods that once were located around there, but are now gone.

    Fun fact: At my work we have one Frisian from the Wālden. His accent and differing use of words are often made fun of by us 'Clay-Frisians', which are the true Frisians
    Būter, brea en griene tsiis
    Wa't dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjochte Fries!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    'Praten' also comes back in Swedish 'Pratar'. Strangely this isn't seen in Norwegian (instead: 'Snakker')
    Joda, vi prater vi også.
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    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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    If it's "fean", it reminds of "fen" (marshlands /moors / costal wet regions), which also is already used with the spelling "fen" in Old Icelandic (Eddaic times), in German "Fenn" (moore; peat-moore), pl. Fenns.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren
    'Praten' also comes back in Swedish 'Pratar'. Strangely this isn't seen in Norwegian (instead: 'Snakker')
    German Platt knows "schnacken" for chatting, also in more northern regions spelled "snacken".
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    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
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    Aka kentynet Northumbria's Avatar
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    I'm aware of "prat" on your side of the Atlantic, although surely 90%+ of all Eng.-speaking Americans have no clue about it.
    Yeah, I thought as much too. There's a few words which are absent from different version of English or have totally different meanings.

    Hey, consider also in connection to this that it is quite common for idiots to run their mouths a lot--thus these "p-word" connections to speaking and idiocy.
    Hmm, I hadn't considered that but now that you mention it...

    Again...great reply/post, Northumbria.
    Thanks.

    'Fean' also isn't pronounced with the 'ea' like in 'Peat', but with the 'ea' like in 'ear'.
    I can't think of any similar words yet, I've just been going through descriptions of soil in my head - peat, loam, clay, etc. Nothing seems to match so far, the most I got was 'Fell' but it describes a high hill or mountain and doesn't really sound the same - it's North Germanic.

    I don't think 'wālden' has to do with low hills. There are no low hills in the wālden area and i don't think there were. It just means 'woods' i guess, after the woods that once were located around there, but are now gone.
    I was trying to think yesterday, I kept thinking I'd heard that name somewhere before and it just occurred to me - there's places in Southern England called 'Wealden' and there's also the word 'Wooden' (something made from wood).

    The name "Weald" is derived from the Old English weald, meaning "forest" (cognate, German Wald). This comes from a Germanic root of the same meaning, and ultimately from Indo-European. Weald is a specifically a West Saxon form; wold is the Anglian form of the word.
    ...
    The adjective for "weald" is "wealden".
    The Weald is in South East England in the areas inhabited by the Jutes and Saxons. The Lincolnshire Wolds are Anglian country, the word must have taken a slightly different meaning there or perhaps the hills were once wooded like the Weald.

    For 'Wolds' I got:

    1.
    an elevated tract of open country.
    2.
    Often, wolds. an open, hilly district, especially in England, as in Yorkshire or Lincolnshire.
    before 900; Middle English; Old English w ( e ) ald forest; cognate with German Wald; akin to wild, Old Norse vǫllr plain
    So the Lincolnshire Wolds could have been wooded once. The Old Norse description which refers to a plain though, but the wolds are low hills. I suppose once the trees were cut down people forgot what it referred to.

    If it's "fean", it reminds of "fen" (marshlands /moors / costal wet regions), which also is already used with the spelling "fen" in Old Icelandic (Eddaic times), in German "Fenn" (moore; peat-moore), pl. Fenns.
    I hadn't thought of that. That sounds like a great explanation, there's a few Fens in England, especially a large area in Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire and Norfolk just called "The Fens".
    It was a former marsh land with the settlements built on hills, it was drained by Dutch engineers and has very fertile peat soils.

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    Aka kentynet Northumbria's Avatar
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    England has many different names for the same thing derived from different variants of North and West Germanic languages.

    In my part of the country I can't think of anywhere called 'Weald' or 'Wold', there's a massive difference between place names in the North and South and lesser so East and West.



    Sybren, do any of these place name elements see similar to Frisian ones?


    A few Old English place name elements:

    Modern English version is in brackets ()

    -burna (-borne) a brook, stream

    -burh (-burg / -bury / -burgh) a fortified place, castle

    -broc (-brook) a brook or stream

    -brycg (-bridge) a bridge

    -cot a cottage

    -den a valley

    -dun a hill or down

    -eg (later -ey) an island or raised ground surrounded by marsh

    -feld (-field) open space later a field

    -ford a river ford

    -halh a nook, corner of land

    -ham a homestead

    -hamm an enclosure, water-meadow

    -hrycg (-ridge) a ridge

    -hyrst a wooded hill

    -hyll (-hill) a hill

    -ingas (-ing) the people of ...

    -leah (-ley) a woodland clearing

    -mer (-mere) a lake

    -mutha (-mouth) a river mouth or estuary

    -stede (-stead) a place, site of a building

    -tun (-ton) an enclosure, farmstead, estate

    -wella (-well) a spring or stream

    -wic (-wich) Romano-British settlement

    -wick produce (of a farm, particularly dairy)

    -worth an enclosure, homestead
    I've seen 'meer', 'burg' and 'den' in Northern Europe.

    Viking place name elements:


    Modern English version is in brackets ()

    -bekkr (-beck) a farmstead or settlement, then a village

    -by a farmstead or settlement, then a village

    -dalr (-dale) a dale, valley

    -ey an island

    -gathr (-garth) a yard, open space

    -gil a ravine

    -holmr (-holm) flat ground by a river

    -kirkja (-kirk) a church hence Scots kirk

    -lundr (-lund) a grove

    -nes (-ness) promomntory, headland

    -thorp an outlying farmstead or hamlet

    -thveit (-thwaite) a meadow

    -toft a site of a house and outbuildings, a plot of land, a homestead

    -vithr a wood

    There's also many ways to name a stream, a few in Northern England are 'beck' (Old Norse), 'burn' and 'brook' (Old English) and there's also a few others in the South I believe.

    Then there's a few different names for hills, one very local to the South Pennines is 'Low' which is ironic considering 'Low' in standard English refers to something not very high.

    Then there's also a local name for a stream in a deep ravine - 'Clough', pronounced somewhere between 'cliff' and 'cluff' - it is better if you hear it.

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    Senior Member Sybren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbria View Post
    The name "Weald" is derived from the Old English weald, meaning "forest" (cognate, German Wald). This comes from a Germanic root of the same meaning, and ultimately from Indo-European. Weald is a specifically a West Saxon form; wold is the Anglian form of the word.
    ...
    The adjective for "weald" is "wealden".
    That must be it. Also, 'Wāld' is pronounced with the ā sounding like English 'awe'.

    Sybren, do any of these place name elements see similar to Frisian ones?
    The ones i can think of:

    Burh (-burg / -bury / -burgh) - Frisian: Burch
    Brycg - Frisian: Brźge
    Feld - Frisian: Fjild
    Mer - Frisian: Mar
    Stede (-stead) - Frisian: (we call a city: 'Stźd'. Pronounced similarly to English 'Stead')
    Thorp - Frisian: (we call a village: 'Doarp'. In Dutch: Dorp)

    Someone like Anlef probably knows a lot more.
    Būter, brea en griene tsiis
    Wa't dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjochte Fries!

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    Thumbs Up 'Wold(s)/Wald/weald/wālden'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    Sorry guys. I now see i made a mistake. It's not 'vean', but 'fean'.
    When you do this, Frisian, the 'Viking' in me comes out.
    I don't think 'wālden' has to do with low hills. There are no low hills in the wālden area and i don't think there were. It just means 'woods' i guess, after the woods that once were located around there, but are now gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbria View Post
    I was trying to think yesterday, I kept thinking I'd heard that name somewhere before and it just occurred to me - there's places in Southern England called 'Wealden' and there's also the word 'Wooden' (something made from wood).
    Quote Originally Posted by Northumbria View Post
    The Weald is in South East England in the areas inhabited by the Jutes and Saxons. The Lincolnshire Wolds are Anglian country, the word must have taken a slightly different meaning there or perhaps the hills were once wooded like the Weald.

    For 'Wolds' I got:
    In my part of the country I can't think of anywhere called 'Weald' or 'Wold',
    Quote Originally Posted by Sybren View Post
    That must be it. Also, 'Wāld' is pronounced with the ā sounding like English 'awe'.
    Here's the etymology of the mod. Eng. "wold," y'all: "--> from the Middle Eng. 'wald' and 'wold' (2 different spellings apparently common) --> from the Ang.-Sax. 'weald' and 'wald' both meaning, of course 'forest' and akin to the Althochdeutsch 'wald' (forest)." In Ang.-Sax. beyond meaning 'forest' 'weald' also could mean: (of course) 'wood(s)', grove, bushes, or any kind of foliage. Northumbria aptly defines/quotes what the MODERN meaning of 'wold(s)' is in English, but in my mind it's quite sad that it NO LONGER means 'forest'/'wood(s)', because IT SHOULD, but the course of centuries has caused Eng.-speakers to 'pervert'/INVERT this term into the EXACT OPPOSITE! with a meaning like "open country" (fields) when its ORIGINAL/TRUE form/meaning is NON!-open country. I don't mean this as a slight against English folks or Eng.-speakers, because I am MOSTLY ENGLISH BY 'BLOOD' (and am ELATED! to be ) , but this massive, opposite change in meaning was super screwed-up> (:-\

    I have further commentary on some other pts. forthcoming (I've run out of time in here for the night), including on 'fen/fenn' and the Eng.-Frisian similarities/contrast between/among the mutually shared term 'burch'--thanks for pointing that one out Sybren. Velvet, please reply to my query over the apparently modern Deut. (WHICH VARIETY? ) term 'Fenn.' ...GREAT INPUT!/REPLIES! gentlemen and lady...*Happy Tuesday!*

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