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Thread: Subracial Composition of the Celts?

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    Subracial Composition of the Celts?

    I have heard claims that the Celts were Alpines but I don't think this is completely true. I think the Celts were a Nordic group that split from the Nords and interbred with the short, dark haired natives of Central Europe. I also think that the R1b and R1a Y-chromosome haplogroups are markers of these natives and that the Celts were of the I haplogroup before mixing. It appears to me that Celtic culture supports that they were closely related to the I haplogroup Nordics who came from the Middle East as the Celtic culture is similar to those of the Middle East.

    Celts and Nords were also known for being tall, fair skinned, and have red and blonde hair with green to blue eyes.

    Why is it that Celts are thought to be Alpines then?

    Does anyone know of any evidence for or against this? I would like some clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laetest View Post
    have heard claims that the Celts were Alpines but I don't think this is completely true.
    Celt or Celtic is a cultural/linguistic term not a race and certainly not a sub-race.


    I think the Celts were a Nordic group that split from the Nords and interbred with the short, dark haired natives of Central Europe.
    It not impossible that many or most of the original Celts may have been Nordic in appearance or at least "Nordish", but it is likely also that many of them weren't. Appearance varied by region and even by Tribe. The Roman Historians tell us that for instance that the Belgae (of what is now Belgium) were dark haired and swarthy while the Gauls were fair skinned and blond. The Britons were mostly dark haired with fewer blonds than the Gauls. Meanwhile the Germans were often red haired. So their was considerable physical variation in Western Europe by Roman times.


    I also think that the R1b and R1a Y-chromosome haplogroups are markers of these natives and that the Celts were of the I haplogroup before mixing.
    R1a is the more likely candidate for the haplogroup of the proto-indo Europeans. You can read all about the "kurgan hypothesis" here.

    It appears to me that Celtic culture supports that they were closely related to the I haplogroup Nordics who came from the Middle East as the Celtic culture is similar to those of the Middle East.
    Nordics from the middle east? That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Whatever else they weren't blond and blued eyed if they were form the middle east. Those traits have been proven to have originated in Northern Europe probably around the Baltic sea. Blond hair first appeared about 11,000 years ago in europe.

    Celts and Nords were also known for being tall, fair skinned, and have red and blonde hair with green to blue eyes
    .

    Some not all.

    Why is it that Celts are thought to be Alpines then?
    Some Celts would have been alpine, as I said the term "Celt" is not a racial description. Who says all Celts were Alpine?
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    R1a is the more likely candidate for the haplogroup of the proto-indo Europeans. You can read all about the "kurgan hypothesis" here.

    Is there any evidence of cultures from before these Proto-Indo-Europeans or is it possible that they were the first people in central europe, before Nordics went that far south?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laetest View Post
    Is there any evidence of cultures from before these Proto-Indo-Europeans or is it possible that they were the first people in central europe, before Nordics went that far south?
    There is evidence of human habitation in Europe by Cromagnon people going back 20-30 thousand years or more. The direct descendants of those first modern humans to enter Europe are almost certainly still to be found living in Europe today, see Cheddar Man.

    A potted history of Europe might go something like this; Groups of Early modern Homo Sapiens began moving into europe some time after 45,000 years ago. One of the most important of these groups was Cromagnon man (named after a cave in France where the first bones were found). Then around 10,000 years ago farming was developed in the Near East. Some of these first farmers moved from their home areas in what is now Turkey and dispersed throughout central and Western Europe as their populations expanded, bringing the knowledge of farming with them and mixing with the descendants of the Cromagnon people.

    As for the Indo-europeans being the "first people in Europe"... well again "Indo-european" is a term (like "Celtic") that refers to a culture or a language group and not to a race of people. You are on firmer ground if you talk of Indo-European culture bearers rather than an Indo-european race.

    The arrival of both Indo-European culture and its culture bearers were certainly predated by earlier peoples and cultures in Europe.

    Those earlier farming people adopted Indo-european culture sometime around 2000-1000BCE. This happened either as a cultural spread or after being conquered by bands of IE warriors. There is still debate as to whether war or cultural exchange were more important factors in the adoption of I.E culture in Western Europe.
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    From what I have read:

    Central Europe

    Early indo Europeans were proto Nordid, the earliest Germanics were predominantly Nordid, just as the earliest Celts, so early Celts and early Germanics were very similar in appearance (their ancestors still are today), however some Celts in their travels through the Iberian Peninsula picked up some swarthier features that may be seen in a few Celts today.
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