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Thread: The Norse Caste System

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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    The Norse Caste System

    Since I love thoughtful topics dealing with our old heritage, here's my attempt at one.

    To begin with, all the Indo-European peoples had a tri-polar view on the world, something which they applied to their societies as well. Obviously I’m talking about the caste system. As we know, the Indo-Aryans divided themselves into Brahmins (priests), Ksatriyas (warriors), and Vaishyas (merchants). Whenever they conquered other races who weren’t Indo-European, these alien peoples were assimilated as a fourth caste at the bottom of the hierarchy.
    The tri-functional caste system was so deeply ingrained into the European mind that it got resurrected during the medieval times, when the Church divided the community into Oratores (clergy), Bellatores (knights) and Laboratores (peasants). The Greeks and Romans had their own social caste systems, but with other names.

    But let’s focus on our more direct ancestors. There was a Norse caste system, consisting of Jarls, Karls and Thralls. Basically: nobles, free men, and slaves. In the Norse myth known as the Rigstula, the god Heimdall in the human shape of Rig visits the humans in Midgård and becomes the ancestor of the three castes.

    The myth says that Heimdall first slept with Edda (great-grandmother), who had a swarthy son named Thrall. He then slept with Amma (grandmother), who had the redheaded son Karl with him. And finally, he slept with Modir (mother), who gave birth to the blond-haired son Jarl. When the sons grew older, Heimdall chose to mentor only Jarl in the secrets of the runes. Jarl’s youngest son Kon was the only one to inherit his sorcery and arcane powers, and Kon eventually develops into a sort of superhuman demi-god being. It’s very interesting how the myth links the racial types in Scandinavia to the three castes:

    Thrall (the slave) is swarthy and ugly, with a hooked nose. He probably belongs to the Tydal, an indigenous population in central Scandinavia. Tydal is a cro-magnoid racial type, but a swarthy one with a broad face and short legs, and it’s likely that these people were used as slaves by Indo-European invaders.
    Karl (the free man) is described as red-haired and freckled, with shrewd eyes. Spontaneously, I think “Celtic” when I read the description. It’s not altogether impossible that the Vanir worshippers had Celt influences in both race and culture. This is just a guess from me, though.
    Jarl (the lord) has golden hair, pale skin and “cunning eyes like serpent spawn”. In other words, he’s a classic Nordid.

    There’s an interesting racial theory about the Norse. That theory basically says that Scandinavia was invaded three times, and each wave of invaders had their own pantheon of gods. First came those who worshipped Hel and the Giants – and they were probably cro-magnoids. After that came the Vanir worshippers, and finally the Aesir worshippers. Likely, those three were different racial types as well.

    So, what do you think of the whole concept of a caste system? How can this anti-egalitarian idea be applied to our society? What are your ideas on this?

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    Senior Member Edgard's Avatar
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    It makes a fair bit of sense to me. Again Rome had the Patricians, consisting of the rulers and warriors and the Plebeians who did the work. The next cast would be the Latin (non Roman Italian) and then the slave. I know this is a vast over simplification of the Republican system but its sort of captures the idea.

    I think a cast system would be our salvation and also in keeping with our roots. I think much of the damage to Indian blood was done prior to the introduction of the cast system so the sooner the better.
    Last edited by Bernhard; Wednesday, September 14th, 2011 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Removed full-quote of preceding post.

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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgard View Post
    It makes a fair bit of sense to me. Again Rome had the Patricians, consisting of the rulers and warriors and the Plebeians who did the work. The next cast would be the Latin (non Roman Italian) and then the slave.
    Actually, the Romans had the exact same system with three castes: Patricians (upper-class), Equites (middle-class) and Plebeians (working-class). Under these were the slaves, who were not Roman citizens and thus "others".

    (On a side note, the Equites were called such because the sign of middle-class status was that you were rich enough to have a horse.)

    I think a cast system would be our salvation and also in keeping with our roots.
    Of course, "our salvation" would be to kick the racial aliens off the continent entirely. But you're right that a modernized "caste system mentality" does have advantages for us, since it's traditional to us, anti-egalitarian, and would make race-mixing a social taboo (among other things).

    I think much of the damage to Indian blood was done prior to the introduction of the cast system so the sooner the better.
    Yes, the Indo-Aryans were indeed damaged by the darker Veddoids, and the caste system was a last resort when it was already too late. The same racial disaster happened in Iran, where the current population is very race-mixed. The original Persians had three castes as well: Athreavas (the priests), Rathaesta (the warriors) and Vastriya (the commoners).

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    Senior Member Edgard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odalman View Post

    (On a side note, the Equites were called such because the sign of middle-class status was that you were rich enough to have a horse.)
    This is the same as the Greek cavalry class although its more upper middle class. Under that was the Hoplite class that only needed a spear and a shield. The nice thing about a cast system is it also neatly defines the duties of any of the groups. The higher in the system you are the more costs and responsibility involved but the stronger your economic position. In classical Athens the Hoplite class came to dominate political power through democracy but still maintained the system. The system protects the people and gives honor to all true members. Even the Greek lowest of the working class had a roll as rowers. Also Athens had a nice rule that in order for a child to be a citizen both parents had to be citizens.

    The same sort of understood obligations can be seen in the Anglo Saxon state forming the military system prior to 1066.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odalman
    So, what do you think of the whole concept of a caste system? How can this anti-egalitarian idea be applied to our society? What are your ideas on this?
    I guess its also a natural result of the requirements to run a successful society. In ancient times it may have been also comprised of different races/people, where people simply took other people as possessions to serve a need. But as history has teached us, multiracial societies arent the best of all ideas.

    Just look on how societies function today. You still have some few who say what's done, then you have the middle class who spreads the means (of production) across the land, and then you have the workers who do all the tasks that are connected with it. Even under the already existing "humanitarian" egalitarian ideas, society was still ordered into those three classes.

    The problems arose when that ivory tower ideas of "whites dont want to do this or that work anymore" took root and the working class was dispossessed and replaced with immigrants. It's not at all true that whites dont want to do those works, they dont want them to do for a wage too low to live from (which is an entirely valid demand, and the wealth that is produced would be more than enough to serve that demand without any loss for the "higher" classes). The Japanese solved the problem with high minimum wages and eradicated material wealth as a means to maintain the classes entirely (the difference of low workers and ministry agents is the min wage x 5), while strengthening the pecking order via social interacting means. This allowed them to maintain a strict nationalist policy that systematically discriminates against foreign workers, through maintaineance of the three class system that secured their base for Japanese workers.

    Since all three classes are required for a successful society, and we dont want the multiracial society, we should indeed look to Japan for inspiration (not necessarily the details, since many couldnt be emulated here anyway, but the idea is good and works). I think that people possessing other people doesnt work anymore though, but the societies that arose from the industrial revolution also show that it can function without possessing slaves/thralls and grand them basic rights so that they can live a proper life. This is I think also a necessity from the point of view that your folk is worth protecting. When you have that opinion, you cant keep them as slaves or let them starve due to too low wages or whatever.

    In so far, the old caste system that based (probably) on different races is unworkable and needs some undusting, but the three classes, however one in detail orders them, are just a natural order of society. I also like somehow the idea that the layers are permeable (and can be so without danger) in a homogenous society, so that smart people can rise up and simple people can fall down, without that either questions the general order.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
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    Senior Member Lady Vengeance's Avatar
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    Ohhh, this is a neat topic.

    I hate to nitpick at good posts, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I just noticed that the Norse castes aren't really the same as the traditional ones. Karl is the free worker and Jarl is the warrior, but Thrall's not one of the three Indo-European castes, since he's our counterpart of the dark-skinned, curry-reeking Sudras (the lowest caste). So, where are the Brahmins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odalman View Post
    How can this anti-egalitarian idea be applied to our society?
    The color-based caste system wouldn't work out for us, no way. Swedes are pretty "equal" by nature: if you pick out two adult Swedes at random, chances are that they’re roughly equal in abilities. But if you take two random Indians, the mental and racial differences can be HUGE, in so many ways, that it's so hard to believe that these two creatures are from the same species.

    Hmmmm, maybe it's 'cause we're a pretty homogenous people in Scandinavia with a high natural "equality" that makes it so easy for anti-racism to take root here...

    So, what do you think of the whole concept of a caste system?
    I think the core idea of the caste system is a good one to keep in mind. Even in equal Sweden, there's natural leaders and followers. That's just the way of life. The dumb chavs and couch-potatoes who watch Big Brother all day wouldn't rate high in a caste system.

    I agree with Velvet on this one. The best thing would be a meritocracy, where the high castes are picked by rating someone's abilities, and not by birth. All three castes are doing something for the society, in their own way. So they should be equally valued and have a say in things (though I seriously don't think the majority of modern Europeans are smart enough to handle democracy, but that's for another topic). If this country was a mono-cultural place, the social classes would treat each other better, instead of allowing immigrants to fuck over the working class. A high minimum wage must be set, and otherwise making the working class feel less acutely aware that they're lowest in the food-chain. Because the food-chain won't survive without 'em.

    So yeah, we shouldn't stare us blind at the ancient caste system itself, such as the "inherited by birth" part or that it was linked to different races, but we should focus on the gist of it. If you really wanna be creative, you can steal an old Socialist catchphrase to describe the relationship between the folkgemenskap and the caste system: "Everyone equal, everyone different".

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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    Good responses. I had something similar in mind as well, adapting the caste mentality for the modern world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Vengeance View Post
    I hate to nitpick at good posts, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I just noticed that the Norse castes aren't really the same as the traditional ones. Karl is the free worker and Jarl is the warrior, but Thrall's not one of the three Indo-European castes, since he's our counterpart of the dark-skinned, curry-reeking Sudras (the lowest caste). So, where are the Brahmins?
    It's implied that Kon, the youngest son of Jarl who is a sort of demi-god, goes on to found his own caste. In other words, he's the first "Brahmin".

    What is also interesting is that the Brahmins/Athreavas/Priests, despite being the highest and most privileged caste, didn't normally have much political power. The warrior caste usually produced the kings, in most Indo-European cultures.

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    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odalman View Post
    So, what do you think of the whole concept of a caste system? How can this anti-egalitarian idea be applied to our society? What are your ideas on this?
    Well, we're not about to start forcing dark-haired Swedes to clean our toilets and only have blondes in charge of national defense...

    The original Persians had three castes as well: Athreavas (the priests), Rathaesta (the warriors) and Vastriya (the commoners).
    I didn't know this before, but it sounds plausible that they created a similar caste system to their cousins in India.
    I find this thread so fascinating...because even in countries like Iran and India, which aren't "white" anymore, can you find old fragments of Indo-European culture every now and then.

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    It is interesting also to look at the feudal systems, which I think refined the essence of the ancient into a workable structure to support & counter-balance the power of the throne - since the Japanese have already been mentioned:


    Feudal Class Systems

    Japanese *
    1.) Warrior (civil servants / low nobility)
    2.) Peasant / Farmers
    3.) Artisan
    4.) Merchant
    **

    * the feudal shogunal system was new, and the result of foreign introduced social structure innovation; the older ancient Japan had its own structure, and the imperial family, and also ancient aristocratic families, predating the samurai (warrior-nobility) class existed outside and above the 4 tier system
    ** the indigenous aboriginal Ainu, and various others were regarded outside and below the 4 tier system

    http://asianhistory.about.com/od/jap...JapanClass.htm

    Scandinavian (Swedish / Finnish)

    1.) Nobility (warriors)
    2.) Clergy
    3.) Burgers
    4.) Peasants / Farmers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riksdag_of_the_Estates



    I like that these systems when applied to social & political structure prevented American style plutocracy, corruption of the democratic or other institutions into being dominated by wealth & the blind pursuit of wealth over time by keeping the farmers/peasants a necessary part of the system. For the Japanese, their aversion to a mercantilist plutocracy drove them to put merchants at the lowest tier, and elevate the farmer to the tier right below the warrior-nobility in respect & power.

    It would seem that this sort of structure would facilitate national-preservationism, and discourage the pro-immigrationist agenda of the modern greedy merchants (want labor as cheap as possible) like many 'pro business' elites who back the phony American Right-wing, and liberal bureaucrats who want more immigrant dependent demographic to increase their own budget & power, in the American Left-wing.

    It seems like requiring those in your society who are granted the right of any political power to have generations long ties to your land and in the right proportion of classes could only facilitate maintenance of a stable nation-state, in responsible stewardship of what was given by the ancient ancestors of the respective nation; like strong roots for a tree.

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    The tri-partite system can also be classified as

    a) the producers (in german der Naehrstand)
    those are the farmers, craftsmen, industry etc. They produce wealth, thus they prefer peace and love. They are also connected to 'creation' in a broader sense, thus fertility, living with the earth, be in harmony with everything and so on. This are all attitudes of the 3rd social class.

    b) the warriors (in german Wehrstand)
    They are the destroyers. They live close to death and are not expected to live long, so they sqeeze everything into their short life. The life is intense. Virtuous here are strength, courage, honor, loyalty etc.
    It is somewhat underrepresented in literature but there were quite a lot of young men who chose this lifestyle.

    c) the leaders (in german der Lehrstand)
    Here you find kings, priests, shamans, wisdom seekers, etc. This class had to balance the creation and the destruction to uphold the whole system. If things are out of whack, as today there is an unbridled creation of human beings to the extent that the whole earth is facing desasters of previously unknown proportions. That is the killing does not equal the creation. A good king would wage war to destroy what has been created (preferably in another state). Shamans would advise for war or peace according to 'divinations' to balance the 2 factors. etc.

    The church nowadays whose job it would be to keep the balance is just promoting the unbridled creation and they are for 'peace and love'. That means they are from the 3rd social class, not from the priestclass.

    That is what happens if you put the wrong people into positions were they make the wrong decisions because they have a lack of wisdom for that position.
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