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Thread: We Are the Greatest Country on Earth, but Have Failed to Maintain Our Morality

  1. #111
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    Honestly, the Romans can't hold a candle () to the Brits, the Germans, or the Russians. Those peoples are the undisputed masters of mechanized slaughter, not the Romans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    Looking at these totals, the Punic Wars come off as puny!
    Omnia risus et omnis pulvis et omnia nihil - HPL

    "Oh, you should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about." - Willy Wonka

    “niemand bleibt hier” - Maria Orsic

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schopenhauer View Post
    Honestly, the Romans can't hold a candle () to the Brits, the Germans, or the Russians. Those peoples are the undisputed masters of mechanized slaughter, not the Romans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    Looking at these totals, the Punic Wars come off as puny!
    Yes, but you have to factor in modern weaponry and that that WW1 and WW2 especially spanned the globe.

    Without machine guns and bombers the casualties in both wars would have been much less. And with WW1 certainly you would not have had the stalemate of trench warfare due to machine guns.
    I grew up on a belief of honour, courage and the old world values. The world isn't about that anymore, preferring to die a slow death of fast food and cheap thrills.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldemar View Post
    The Founders idealistically expected the political ideals of the U.S. to spread to other nations, especially in Western Europe, not aggressively but peacefully; they wanted constitutional and republican ideas to inspire other nations oppressed by monarchs, clericalism, etc. to rise up and become a free and enlightened, self-governing people.

    The posterity of the Founders in America has shown how the ball was not only dropped but also totally lost.
    This idealism hasn't changed either, now the West tries to spread democracy and socialism, through ideas like multi cult, trying to create new races by mixing all of them among other things.

    Of course there are more sinister ideals behind this as well, but for some it really is about creating unity by obliterating their own race and culture even if they can't see that themselves.

    Of course it doesn't work, racial others stay true to themselves and their own. Something I envy them for.
    I grew up on a belief of honour, courage and the old world values. The world isn't about that anymore, preferring to die a slow death of fast food and cheap thrills.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schopenhauer View Post
    Honestly, the Romans can't hold a candle () to the Brits, the Germans, or the Russians. Those peoples are the undisputed masters of mechanized slaughter, not the Romans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    Looking at these totals, the Punic Wars come off as puny!

    But this is not an example of blood lust. War is mostly not fought for that reason.

    There are some exceptions, when revenge is the reason, but it is not a general blood lust seen in an entire race of people like the Romans where it was morally OK to watch people being tortured and killed for fun.


    One example of blood lust in war would be the Dresden bombings where people were killed needlessly and brutally (being burned alive) because those in charge took pleasure in their killing and suffering. The attack had no strategic purposes. The goal was to kill civilians en masse in the most horrible way imaginable.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freja_se View Post
    Liberalism is the twisted version of freedom. It's a Dr Jekyll - Mr Hyde thing.


    Freedom must be accompanied by responsibility. It can't work without conscience and responsibility accompanying it. Liberals demand endless freedom and rights but don't care about consequences -- just their wants and desires matter.


    Liberalism is freedom in the hands of immature and selfish people who don't care about tomorrow or anybody, even though they love the abstract "idea" of altruism because it sounds good.


    Decadent liberalism won't survive in morally strict cultures. It needs the freedom to run wild, uncontrolled and madly, and it thrives on chaos and anarchy, not discipline and morality.
    Exactly. All these people who chant open borders and freedom have no idea what this actually achieves and that for one even if every country opened its borders it would only result in the West being flooded and Africa and Asia being empty because the whites largely would not want to live there.

    They also don't understand that all these racial others they support so much have no interest in their values of openess and freedom, they support themselves and their Allah and have no issues with going along with all the ideas until it comes to the point where they can openly revolt with little chance of losing.

    The cliched old saying has been forgotten "With Freedom comes vigilance"
    I grew up on a belief of honour, courage and the old world values. The world isn't about that anymore, preferring to die a slow death of fast food and cheap thrills.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freja_se View Post
    Bu this is not an example of blood lust. War is mostly not fought for that reason.

    There are some exceptions, when revenge is the reason, but it is not a general blood lust seen in an entire race of people like the Romans where it was morally OK to watch people being tortured and killed for fun.


    One example of blood lust in war would be the Dresden bombings where people were killed needlessly and brutally (being burned alive) because those in charge took pleasure in their killing and suffering.
    WWI and II weren't examples of bloodlust?!? Seriously?!? Germans offing Russians in millions, the Russians doing the same, and this, somehow, is done without "bloodlust?"
    Omnia risus et omnis pulvis et omnia nihil - HPL

    "Oh, you should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about." - Willy Wonka

    “niemand bleibt hier” - Maria Orsic

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schopenhauer View Post
    WWI and II weren't examples of bloodlust?!? Seriously?!? Germans offing Russians in millions, the Russians doing the same, and this, somehow, is done without "bloodlust?"
    Going to war does not mean that you like doing it, enjoy doing it, get a kick from doing it. It is often the very opposite. The number of people killed in itself does not change that.

    As soon as the enemy surrenders the killing to a large extent ends because the purpose of war is to make the enemy comply and surrender.

    The killing is the means to an end..not the end in itself.




    It is a far cry from the Roman true blood lust where civilians in social settings - not soldiers - wanted to see others tortured and killed for the FUN of it.


    That is what they watched for entertainment when they were bored.


    The Roman civilian's lust for bloodshed and suffering has nothing to do with war because the motivation is not the same.


    The vast majority of soldiers in war hate going to war.. and hate killing people.. and suffer immensely afterwards from different sorts of traumatic, psychological disorders -- often for life.

    Soldiers are mostly exposed to things not by their own choice.


    The Romans LOVED seeing the same thing acted out as a sick form of entertainment for no other reason than the excitement of seeing terrified and often defenseless people suffer and die in the most horrible ways they could arrange.

    The two simply don't compare.

  8. #118
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    Honestly, the Romans can't hold a candle to the Brits, the Germans, or the Russians. Those peoples are the undisputed masters of mechanized slaughter, not the Romans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    Looking at these totals, the Punic Wars come off as puny!
    Well, Schopenhauer, I don't think you can really make a comparison here, given the 2000-year interval that has elapsed in between. I'm afraid the Romans couldn't indulge in what you call 'mechanised slaughter' because they didn't live in a mechanised society. Now, Romans with machine guns ... that's an interesting one to ponder There's no telling what they'd have done with them!!!

    As for the actual numbers concerned, again you cannot compare because populations have risen so much over the past two millennia. For example, the Battle of Hastings (which decided the fate of England) was fought by approximately 15,000 belligerents but this would only be deemed a minor skirmish by modern standards.

    Maybe the Romans were no more barbaric than the times they lived in - and probably more civilised than many of their contemporaries - but they did have a propensity for cruelty, which was often gratuitous!

  9. #119
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    Let's get back on topic

    To get back to Schopenhauer's and Feisty Goddess' debate:

    This is the good old individualism vs. collectivism argument. The United States is an unique country because it was built on radical individualism for its time, meant to be a direct successor to the Athenian democracy, the Roman Republic and the old Germanic ting. This semi-democratic tradition is why many Americans tend towards "libertarianism" today.

    But, a degree of collectivism is necessary to make a society function. The traditional European society was corporatist, more than anything. Several collectives. Everyone belonged to a group - whether it was a guild, peasant commune, a knight's order, a monastic order, a noble family or a social caste. People still viewed themselves as individuals within the larger group, but the group identity was much more important than the person. The "objectivism" that Feisty Goddess supports was never a part of the European spirit, it's an invention of later capitalism.

    So yes, to answer the thread: the USA could use more collectivism, but in the right direction.
    Last edited by Heinrich Harrer; Tuesday, September 13th, 2011 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Ad hominem

  10. #120
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    The only thing Collectivism collects are human cogs.

    Obviously, a society needs some form of organization in order for it to function, but when the organizing principle becomes an end to itself, then you know that society is in some deep sh*t.

    America definitely was off to a good start, well at least as good as the times could probably allow, but that all changed when the Republic was murdered by Lincoln.

    If you want to point the finger at those who did the most harm to the US, Hamilton, Lincoln, Wilson, and Roosevelt are, by far, the most guilty.

    Getting back to British WW2 bloodlust, we would do well to remember that Churchill deliberately escalated the air war with Germany in order to further his personal economic interests. And lets not forget that Churchill ordered the sinking of the French fleet that killed 1,297 Frenchmen, or his attempted gassing of Berlin.

    Of course there's FDR, who, in all probabilty, let Pearl Harbor be attacked so he could have his casus belli.

    And then there's the Russians who systematically gangraped every German woman they could lay their degenerate hands on

    Looking back on the Romans, they seem almost tame when you compare them to things like British and German KZs, firebombing and nuking civilian populations, mustard gas, and Katyn.
    Omnia risus et omnis pulvis et omnia nihil - HPL

    "Oh, you should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about." - Willy Wonka

    “niemand bleibt hier” - Maria Orsic

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