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Thread: I Was Thinking About Something

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimodighet View Post
    In many ways, it was. The Roman Empire had large cities, public baths, cement, water aqueducts, Roman roads, steam power, and so on. The Dark Ages were a descent into ignorance.
    The dark ages were not a descent into ignorance because of Germanics ruling the world, it was a descent into dark ages largely because the church forbade as much scientific progress and thought as possible, until well beyond the late medieval, through some the renaissance and until we entered the enlightenment.

    What devastating effects the church, especially where it is strong - completely regardless of whether Catholic or Orthodox (Protestantism entered too late, too close to the enlightenment) - can have is shown amongst other classical societies that are often used as the showcase of how 'superior' Mediterranean Europe was to Northern Europe, such as Greece.

    When we think of Ancient Greece, we think of all the philosophers, the mathematicians, the high culture. When we think of Medieval Greece, we think of nothing, perhaps of at best the Ottomans holding it down further. When we think of Modern Greece, we think of a corrupt people that can't even run its own business aptly, let alone make any news-breaking discoveries!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hersir View Post
    The celts had better metalworking than the romans, thats' why the romans "stole" their famous short sword from the celts.
    Also we must not forget the wealth, especially that the fact that Gaul alone had over 400 gold mines whilst Rome had almost none on home territory, and that this was a chief reason for Caesar's venture out there also being popular with the Roman masses. His success was less one of military force, but of strategic cleverness, knowing that the Celts were very federally-tribally organised and constantly feuding with each other, this helped his cause.

    On the metal working, it must be mentioned that they traded much of their metalworking, Celtic iron tools were a favourite with Roman traders, as were weapons.

    As regards infrastructure, it is known that at least a dozen Celtic towns possess high stone walls rivalling those of Rome at the time, some of them up to 5 km (just over 3 miles) long, a particularly famous example thereof was found at the Celtic town near present-day Manching in Bavaria.

    Also, as regarded them, their pre-Roman calendar is commonly deemed to be importantly more accurate than the Roman one, and is indeed deemed to rival, if not surpass the accuracy of the Gregorian calendar we use (considering we still nead leap years and all).

    Romans more advanced and civilised than the "Barbarians"? Certainly not.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    The dark ages were not a descent into ignorance because of Germanics ruling the world, it was a descent into dark ages largely because the church forbade as much scientific progress and thought as possible, until well beyond the late medieval, through some the renaissance and until we entered the enlightenment.
    It's quite evident that the collapse of the Roman Empire and the fact that the Germanic tribes lived a somewhat nomadic lifestyle has led to a period which one might call a dark age. After a period of destruction the Germanic tribes had to bring the land to order again, which of course took a while. This natural development did not need Christianity for that.
    And even well within the "dark ages" philosophy and science played an important role again. Think of the Karolingian Renaissance for example. Charlemagne the Christian imperialist surely hadn't done anything to stop the progress of scientific and philosophical thought? On the contrary! I think I've discussed this in another thread before, but it's rather a modern (Enlightenment) invention that the dark ages were actually dark because of the reign of (Christian) religion. Have a look at how medieval universities were organized and you can discover that it's quite a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    What devastating effects the church, especially where it is strong - completely regardless of whether Catholic or Orthodox (Protestantism entered too late, too close to the enlightenment) - can have is shown amongst other classical societies that are often used as the showcase of how 'superior' Mediterranean Europe was to Northern Europe, such as Greece.

    When we think of Ancient Greece, we think of all the philosophers, the mathematicians, the high culture. When we think of Medieval Greece, we think of nothing, perhaps of at best the Ottomans holding it down further. When we think of Modern Greece, we think of a corrupt people that can't even run its own business aptly, let alone make any news-breaking discoveries!
    Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. It's well known that there have been other major influential changes in the classical world besides the emergence of the Christian cult. Considering the fact that Northern Europe was christianized as well and managed to maintain a high culture the causes for the decline of the Mediterranean world clearly have to be sought elsewhere.

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