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Thread: The Diabolical Genius of the American Public Education System

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gall Óglach View Post
    I'll bet there is very strong correalation between discipline an academic performance.

    There's a reason Imperial Germany had the most Nobel prizes, and why China is going to overtake the now weak and decadent west.
    There is a very big difference between discipline and being a drone.
    Ein Kampf, Ein Sieg! Fur Prussia!

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    Senior Member Gall Óglach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmann View Post
    E

    There is a very big difference between discipline and being a drone.
    There is indeed.

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    Join the club USA. I'm now a Maths teacher in Australia (previously South Africa) and I can tell you that the same things are happening here (+ SA) as well.

    Teachers are very frustrated, because our hands are tied with regards to discipline and we are swamped with admin.

    Not that we get great salaries, but I get the impression that lots of teachers are becoming regular clock watchers and just wait for the money.

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    I'm impressed by the OP. It certainly echoes a lot of my own views. Nationalised education in itself is a homogenising process that's only really conceivable in a consumerist, industrial or post-industrial culture spiritually grounded in the concept of mass-production. Its goal, conscious or unconscious, is to transform the citizen into a broadly manipulable resource: not too limited to be useless, but not too learned to be threatening. Education involves two main prongs. The first is to reduce the critical capacity of the human mind to nonexistence and create a complete but implicit (i.e. not even lending itself to conscious critique) faith in the goodness, desirability and superiority of whatever value system is espoused by the controlling system. The second is to furnish a broad base of rudimentary skills that are practically exploitable by any future employer. Compulsory education only really concerns itself with securing the most basic knowledge of English, of Mathematics, of Science etc. in its students.

    These two complements create a population base both craving and able to serve the system. Beyond compulsory education, students do see a rise in the quality of education. These are the people who'll be counting cash at banks into their mid-60s, not cleaning stairwells and changing oil filters. Unfortunately for the government, higher education is necessary here. But at least here learning can be focussed entirely on vocational requirements. No abstract, critical thinking required. Phew. Close call. Yes, philosophy and a few other subjects are available that are interested solely in the development of the individual in and of itself, and not in relation to calibrating the mind to the system requirements of some larger machine. But they have enough faith in the potency of their implicit ideological conditioning that they can be sure the vast, vast majority will favour a subject that allows them much more to faithfully serve the system than to critique it. And it's interesting to note here that what 'critical' subjects do exist are in essence counter-revolutionary and serve merely to critique the old in terms of the new and current. Never would a truly subversive ideology that threatened the stability of the system be tolerated. As an example, you may want to consider how feminism played into the wildest dreams of capitalism.

    I personally prefer either community-level education or straight-up homeschooling. Nobody really benefits intellectually from school except in learning how to interact with others. Promoting independent thought and learning but without endorsing reclusiveness is the perfect recipe for a healthily critical and competent mind. Anyone who doesn't want his kids to be treated as cattle (for the proverbial slaughter) should at least look into homeschooling. You may be a know-nothing, but hey, you can't know less than most teachers.

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    Senior Member Gall Óglach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    I'm impressed by the OP. It certainly echoes a lot of my own views. Nationalised education in itself is a homogenising process that's only really conceivable in a consumerist, industrial or post-industrial culture spiritually grounded in the concept of mass-production.
    Modern public education in much of the west is based off of the prussian system started by Frederich the Great, when Prussia was neither consumerist or industrialized. Mass production isn't a spirtual belief it's just a tool.

    Its goal, conscious or unconscious, is to transform the citizen into a broadly manipulable resource: not too limited to be useless, but not too learned to be threatening. Education involves two main prongs. The first is to reduce the critical capacity of the human mind to nonexistence and create a complete but implicit (i.e. not even lending itself to conscious critique) faith in the goodness, desirability and superiority of whatever value system is espoused by the controlling system.
    Children begin life easy to manipulate. Indoctrination isn't the exclusive reserve of education. Media, family and religion all indoctrinate children.
    Getting rid of public education because, in recent times it promotes something most on this forum don't like (multi-culturalism) is pretty ridiculous. Regardless of the problems of modern society, public education has worked well in the past, modern society is the problem not education.

    The second is to furnish a broad base of rudimentary skills that are practically exploitable by any future employer. Compulsory education only really concerns itself with securing the most basic knowledge of English, of Mathematics, of Science etc. in its students.
    Is basic knowledge of English, Math and Science, not important? Rudimentary knowledge at GCSE level, but A level is more advanced, as preparation for applicable university studies. What alternative system would do a better job?

    These two complements create a population base both craving and able to serve the system. Beyond compulsory education, students do see a rise in the quality of education. These are the people who'll be counting cash at banks into their mid-60s, not cleaning stairwells and changing oil filters. Unfortunately for the government, higher education is necessary here. But at least here learning can be focussed entirely on vocational requirements. No abstract, critical thinking required. Phew. Close call.
    So should 5 year-olds be taught about Schroedinger's cat? It gets progressively more advanced because you need a strong understanding of the simpler stuff to move onto the harder stuff. I don't know what you mean by critical thinking, but most subjects except RE do require criticial thinking, which subjects don't need critical thinking to do well in them?

    Yes, philosophy and a few other subjects are available that are interested solely in the development of the individual in and of itself, and not in relation to calibrating the mind to the system requirements of some larger machine.
    Development of the self is the main problem with education today. There is always some liberal tit on TV complaining that we don't let black yoofs learn about their idiotic 'culture', and how we need to learn about diversity and tolerance about other people.

    But they have enough faith in the potency of their implicit ideological conditioning that they can be sure the vast, vast majority will favour a subject that allows them much more to faithfully serve the system than to critique it. And it's interesting to note here that what 'critical' subjects do exist are in essence counter-revolutionary and serve merely to critique the old in terms of the new and current. Never would a truly subversive ideology that threatened the stability of the system be tolerated. As an example, you may want to consider how feminism played into the wildest dreams of capitalism.
    I don't recall any ideological conditioning in my school. My history teacher was an ardent Irish republican, who sure didn't teach me to love the crown.

    I personally prefer either community-level education or straight-up homeschooling. Nobody really benefits intellectually from school except in learning how to interact with others. Promoting independent thought and learning but without endorsing reclusiveness is the perfect recipe for a healthily critical and competent mind. Anyone who doesn't want his kids to be treated as cattle (for the proverbial slaughter) should at least look into homeschooling. You may be a know-nothing, but hey, you can't know less than most teachers.
    Private school, or public grammar schools are the best choice. They still tend to have good discipline as they can easily expell troublemakers. I don't see how homeschooling would really prepare a child for advanced science or engineering degrees. Aren't most homeschoolers crazy religious people anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gall Óglach View Post
    Modern public education in much of the west is based off of the prussian system started by Frederich the Great, when Prussia was neither consumerist or industrialized.
    In Britain, it was never adopted enthusiastically until it was realised the proletariat's potential to slave for the system was under-realised. I'm not disputing the move was fuelled by some humanitarian nitwits, but I am saying those nitwits were listened to only because their cause could be co-opted. National education is considered much more important (and has been extended accordingly) now that the masses are no longer needed so much for manual, brainless labour as for clerical, language-oriented work.

    Mass production isn't a spirtual belief it's just a tool.
    I was talking about the culture that grew around the system's economic core. Everything today is levelled, made calculable, flexible enough to adapt to market forces, universalised and standardised, made multi-purpose and jack-of-all-trades (and master of none), everything submitted for review to be signed and co-signed. People are a commodity. They're fed the same curriculi, by the same dullards, in the same classrooms, at the same desks, in the same uniforms across the nation (not literally). All have the same basic skill sets, which are broad enough for them to enter the bottom rung of any branch of wage slavery, and have the same rudimentary knowledge that can be built on if they want to enter a more specialised and professional branch of wage slavery.

    Children begin life easy to manipulate. Indoctrination isn't the exclusive reserve of education. Media, family and religion all indoctrinate children.
    True, and, again, I've never disputed this. It's impossible to be uninfluenced by others. It is, however, possible to avoid becoming a drone, a clone of everyone else of your generation and upbringing, and a cog in the machine, which is simply debasing and undignified. Yes, even the self-educated are only exposed to a certain set of ideas. You won't find books arguing for the compulsory and exclusive feeding of live hedgehogs to newborns in Waterstones. But we're talking about degree. Someone educated by a family member can at least see the fallibility of the authority and question him. What's taught by schools is perceived as iron-clad truth, bequeathed through the ages by the stone cold reality of the universe. They're taught to respect unconditionally people who are utter morons.

    Getting rid of public education because, in recent times it promotes something most on this forum don't like (multi-culturalism) is pretty ridiculous. Regardless of the problems of modern society, public education has worked well in the past, modern society is the problem not education.
    It was always a joke. Every other civilisation has managed without it. A certain (and sadly large) proportion of the population is always going to be uneducable. Most people leave school knowing as little as when they went in (which, given the messages taught in schools, is probably a good thing). People who are smart are going to be smart whether they go to school or not, and vice versa with idiots. I wasted my time at school. I just daydreamed through every lesson, never did homework (almost literally), never studied what was on the syllabus -- my interests were academic, but not in anything I've ever taken an exam on. I then got the second highest results in my year. I lost out to some swot who was always studying, but I beat all the other swots. But the thing is, I didn't know anything. I BSed it all and did very, very well.

    Is basic knowledge of English, Math and Science, not important?
    Of course it is. But have you honestly seen how the average school-leaver writes? Nobody in my age bracket but me knows what the subjunctive mood is, nobody knows how to use the word 'whom' or whether it should be 'it is me' or 'it is I'; Heck, most don't even know what a verb is. What they do know is that various liberal cultural values are good, various non-liberal values are bad and that South Trinidadian reggae-poetry is a valid and beautiful means of self-expression.

    Rudimentary knowledge at GCSE level, but A level is more advanced, as preparation for applicable university studies. What alternative system would do a better job?
    Given that even spastics now reliably get ten A stars, it's not a the best discriminitive means of identifying university potential. I know so many idiots, illiterates, with A's in English at the A level stage that I simply can't have any respect for the qualification. I literally skipped the second year of college (for medical reasons), didn't revise save for the day before, and finished with good grades. And I'm not trying to brag. My point is the standards are ridiculously low. If you're above average intelligence, the tests weren't even made for you. You can just sleep the whole year and 'blag' your way through any exam, with perhaps the exception of maths and the sciences.

    So should 5 year-olds be taught about Schroedinger's cat? It gets progressively more advanced because you need a strong understanding of the simpler stuff to move onto the harder stuff. I don't know what you mean by critical thinking, but most subjects except RE do require criticial thinking, which subjects don't need critical thinking to do well in them?
    I don't mean critical thinking like 'how do you how do you get a lobster out of your gall-bladder using only your ear lobe?', or how to critique the socio-economic elitism and classist representations of Knight Rider. I mean critical thinking as in questioning the values and assumptions being taught to them as fact.

    I don't recall any ideological conditioning in my school. My history teacher was an ardent Irish republican, who sure didn't teach me to love the crown.
    Well, I did my GCSEs in the early 2000s, and English and History especially were replete with ideological bias. I doubt there's been a regression since.

    Aren't most homeschoolers crazy religious people anyway.
    Neither of us is American, so no.

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    Public education in the US? Marxist brainwashing, that's all.
    >Departmentalized education rather than holistic
    >Discipline you against your natural human instincts,
    >force you to disobey your divine instincts,
    >lie and tell you everyone's a fag,
    >lie and tell you Romans and niggers are awesome,
    >lie and lie and lie about reality, history, real science and everything else,
    >force you to socialize with messed up kids who will lead you astray,

    In other words, the 'disciplined' (brainwashed), insane, morons and asians do well while the good souls get all F's or dropout.

    'Teachers, leave them kids alone!'

    The only useful education is called parenting and life.

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    Senior Member Gall Óglach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    In Britain, it was never adopted enthusiastically until it was realised the proletariat's potential to slave for the system was under-realised. I'm not disputing the move was fuelled by some humanitarian nitwits, but I am saying those nitwits were listened to only because their cause could be co-opted. National education is considered much more important (and has been extended accordingly) now that the masses are no longer needed so much for manual, brainless labour as for clerical, language-oriented work.
    This sounds like an Alex Jones conspiracy theory. Why is it a bad thing to ensure the populace is skilled in jobs that serve the national interest? Why now then are there so many useless degree courses like media studies and gender studies? If the elite just wan't a useful work force?

    I was talking about the culture that grew around the system's economic core. Everything today is levelled, made calculable, flexible enough to adapt to market forces, universalised and standardised, made multi-purpose and jack-of-all-trades (and master of none), everything submitted for review to be signed and co-signed. People are a commodity. They're fed the same curriculi, by the same dullards, in the same classrooms, at the same desks, in the same uniforms across the nation (not literally). All have the same basic skill sets, which are broad enough for them to enter the bottom rung of any branch of wage slavery, and have the same rudimentary knowledge that can be built on if they want to enter a more specialised and professional branch of wage slavery.
    What culture is that, the culture of a greedy elite or the dimwitted masses. Both have always existed. I almost get the impression you think society was going great till the industrial revolution happened.


    True, and, again, I've never disputed this. It's impossible to be uninfluenced by others. It is, however, possible to avoid becoming a drone, a clone of everyone else of your generation and upbringing, and a cog in the machine, which is simply debasing and undignified. Yes, even the self-educated are only exposed to a certain set of ideas. You won't find books arguing for the compulsory and exclusive feeding of live hedgehogs to newborns in Waterstones. But we're talking about degree. Someone educated by a family member can at least see the fallibility of the authority and question him. What's taught by schools is perceived as iron-clad truth, bequeathed through the ages by the stone cold reality of the universe. They're taught to respect unconditionally people who are utter morons.
    If anything we are taught to disrepect authority and be entitled to a long list of ever more ridiculous human rights. England may be different, but in my school we're taught about how evil the British empire was and how wonderful Ghandi and Martin Luther King were for challenging the authority of evil whitey. That's the only pro-multicultural thing I remember being taught in school and we were not to unconditionally accept, we learned about it, then moved on and never talked about it again.


    It was always a joke. Every other civilisation has managed without it. A certain (and sadly large) proportion of the population is always going to be uneducable. Most people leave school knowing as little as when they went in (which, given the messages taught in schools, is probably a good thing). People who are smart are going to be smart whether they go to school or not, and vice versa with idiots.
    We are significantly more advanced than every other civilization. The educated middle class is the backbone of our technological advance and it is the porduct of public education.


    I wasted my time at school. I just daydreamed through every lesson, never did homework (almost literally), never studied what was on the syllabus -- my interests were academic, but not in anything I've ever taken an exam on. I then got the second highest results in my year. I lost out to some swot who was always studying, but I beat all the other swots. But the thing is, I didn't know anything. I BSed it all and did very, very well.
    Now your not only challengin to the notion of public education, but education itself. I could never have passed my A Levels in Chemistry, Physics or Maths, without studying them. Maybe you're just a genius.


    Of course it is. But have you honestly seen how the average school-leaver writes? Nobody in my age bracket but me knows what the subjunctive mood is, nobody knows how to use the word 'whom' or whether it should be 'it is me' or 'it is I'; Heck, most don't even know what a verb is. What they do know is that various liberal cultural values are good, various non-liberal values are bad and that South Trinidadian reggae-poetry is a valid and beautiful means of self-expression.
    So instead of public education, they should have been taught what the subjunctive mood is by whom? Their parents? Wouldn't someone qualified in the particular academic subject be better?

    The prevailing othorodoxy of multiculturalism, is a social problem, not a problem of public education. 100 years ago school kids were taught that Anglo-Saxons were destined by God to run the world.

    Children don't know what a verb is because they have no discipline and don't listen to the teacher, who definitely do teach about them. The problem is a lack of discipline.

    Given that even spastics now reliably get ten A stars, it's not a the best discriminitive means of identifying university potential. I know so many idiots, illiterates, with A's in English at the A level stage that I simply can't have any respect for the qualification. I literally skipped the second year of college (for medical reasons), didn't revise save for the day before, and finished with good grades. And I'm not trying to brag. My point is the standards are ridiculously low. If you're above average intelligence, the tests weren't even made for you. You can just sleep the whole year and 'blag' your way through any exam, with perhaps the exception of maths and the sciences.
    Getting an A* in media studies, maybe be piss easy, but the useful subjects are more difficult and their cirriculum in my experience atleast in Northern Ireland anyway, is of the right level of difficulty for each year group.

    I don't mean critical thinking like 'how do you how do you get a lobster out of your gall-bladder using only your ear lobe?', or how to critique the socio-economic elitism and classist representations of Knight Rider. I mean critical thinking as in questioning the values and assumptions being taught to them as fact.
    Critical thinking, like how a transistor works, is reason enough to have public education. Which subject should the crime statistics of immigrants in Sweden be taught? The scientific method includes Occam's razor, criticial thinking is a skill once learned, in chemistry is applicable to everything else. The problem is, it's not taught in chemistry because kids these days don't do the harder subjects, becuase they aren't forced too and don't have the discipline to learn it.

    Well, I did my GCSEs in the early 2000s, and English and History especially were replete with ideological bias. I doubt there's been a regression since.
    One of the major things you learn in history, is about bias, I was always taught to consider the agenda of the author of a source text. Even though I was taught about the sins of imperialism, they were real sins that did happen. The fact that Britain exported trial by jury and the steam engine may have been left out, but I wouldn't call that being brainwashed.


    Neither of us is American, so no.
    The UK has plenty of religious nutters.


    Have you ever heard of Rudolf Steiner schools. I know a guy that went to one, now he has no qualifications, no job and he's a half-wit marxist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gall Óglach View Post
    This sounds like an Alex Jones conspiracy theory. Why is it a bad thing to ensure the populace is skilled in jobs that serve the national interest?
    If it serves the interest of a society you like, then it's 'good'. If it serves the interests of a society you don't like, it's 'bad'. I don't like pretty much anything about modern society and have no interest in seeing myself, my family, my friends, my countrymen be its servants, so I find it bad.

    Why now then are there so many useless degree courses like media studies and gender studies? If the elite just wan't a useful work force?
    Media is big business. Tons of careers could make use of a degree in it. Gender Studies is ideologically charged in a way that benefits a liberal state.

    What culture is that, the culture of a greedy elite or the dimwitted masses. Both have always existed.
    True. The main difference is really only that slaves used to know they were slaves, whereas now they actually think they're free. But there's something annoying about that to me. Plus, other cultures had merits that we certainly lack.

    I almost get the impression you think society was going great till the industrial revolution happened.
    It was at least more exciting. Being a serf, toiling the same plot of land day in day out, probably wasn't a rollercoaster ride. But I do believe the mundane for them was experienced differently than it is by the average cubical drone of today (how many serfs killed themselves or had 'depression', for example? Probably not even one).

    If anything we are taught to disrepect authority and be entitled to a long list of ever more ridiculous human rights. England may be different, but in my school we're taught about how evil the British empire was and how wonderful Ghandi and Martin Luther King were for challenging the authority of evil whitey.
    There's no deep contradiction between capitalism and liberalism (no matter what the useless term 'leftism' implies).

    Now your not only challengin to the notion of public education, but education itself.
    No. Self-education is perfect, home education second best, communal education third, no education fourth, and national-level public education last.

    I could never have passed my A Levels in Chemistry, Physics or Maths, without studying them. Maybe you're just a genius.
    Those are the exceptions. In fact there's some massive discrepancies between the difficulty of various subjects. Some subjects defy any attempt to dumb them down, maths and hard science ranking among them.

    So instead of public education, they should have been taught what the subjunctive mood is by whom? Their parents? Wouldn't someone qualified in the particular academic subject be better?
    They have a better chance of being taught it by their parents than by an English teacher. Grammar wasn't really touched on at all in high school. Neither was vocabulary. I agree that creative writing, persuasive writing, interpretation of language, critical reading etc. are also important. But we didn't do much of that either. We simply read anti-slavery literature, dissected 'minority' poetry, and wrote pro-multicultural political essays. Sure, there were elements of all of the above in there, but all took a back-seat to the main purpose of the tasks, which was to create ideologically neutered idiots.

    The prevailing othorodoxy of multiculturalism, is a social problem, not a problem of public education. 100 years ago school kids were taught that Anglo-Saxons were destined by God to run the world.
    They were taught some basic crap beyond chimney sweeping techniques because the British economy was changing and required a slightly more sophisticated workforce.

    Children don't know what a verb is because they have no discipline and don't listen to the teacher, who definitely do teach about them. The problem is a lack of discipline.
    They don't remember what a verb is because they were never taught enough about grammatical theory for the knowledge ever to be relevant. The learning of foreign languages is also a disaster, since most can't grasp the basic rules even of their own language.

    Critical thinking, like how a transistor works, is reason enough to have public education.
    A simple apprenticeship would cover it.

    One of the major things you learn in history, is about bias, I was always taught to consider the agenda of the author of a source text. Even though I was taught about the sins of imperialism, they were real sins that did happen. The fact that Britain exported trial by jury and the steam engine may have been left out, but I wouldn't call that being brainwashed.
    In history, we covered slavery, apartheid, and WW2 & the holocaust about 5 times. At no point were we encouraged to be critical of the supposed enormity of these periods.

    The UK has plenty of religious nutters.
    Maybe. We'd just have to take that chance. I'd say a 50% chance of home-schooled kids being taught pointless crap by weirdo parents still beats the 100% of their learning crap at a public institution.

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    Senior Member Gall Óglach's Avatar
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    Well my experience of public education is very different to yours. I went to a Church of Ireland grammar school and I think it was very benificial even if it had too much christianity.

    Northern Ireland has a tiered education systom. At 11, we still do the 11 plus, those that do well can go to grammar schools which are still effectively segregated along religious lines.

    Grammar schools get the brightest students, and have zero tolerance attitudes toward disruptive pupils. These schools out perform all but the private schools in academic performence.

    Another difference between N.Ireland and the rest of the UK, is that N.Ireland is 99% white. N.Ireland is also quite conservative, so maybe levels are multicultural indoctrination are much higher in England. We still haven't quite got over accepting catholics.

    Scrapping public education, to me sounds like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

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