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Thread: German Left Provokes Row on Berlin Wall Anniversary

  1. #11
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    The building of the wall is nothing to be justified.
    "28 years of keeping the peace in Europe" and "28 years of plentiful crèche and kindergarten places".

    "For 28 years without sending German soldiers to war … for 28 years without unemployment and unemployment benefit … for 28 years of no doctors' fees and no two-tier health system … for 28 years of education for all."
    I dont think that this "stunt" is about "justifying" the wall, but pointing out that there wasnt only bad things behind it.

    And there are still (or again) people in both parts of Germany that want the wall back. It DID secure peace in Europe, whether one likes it or not. All of western Europe profitted from the wall and the total segregation to the USSR, whether one likes it or not. It's no coincidence that since the wall is gone the west (and all of the western world) goes downhill with highspeed. And people behind it did not cry for 28 years constantly tears over not being allowed to travel. Yes, it wasnt all happy sunshine, but it wasnt that they'd have chains on their feet either. And the above mentioned things are important for people's personal happiness (because only reliable structures allow for personal happiness in the first place), and they are things that are erroded and destroyed systematically today.

    And another reason, why many Eastern Germans want the wall back is that the seperation is kept alive likewise systematically from the govt. The east still earns significantly less than the west, the unemployment benefits are less than in the west, pension is less than in the west, children's support is less than in the west, the education system is worse than in the west, the economy was trashed systematically through the criminal Gauck administration and apart from "big business" (mostly foreign) investors who get blown subsidies into their golden asses, it's made more difficult for small businesses to get something going.

    It's still that way 20 years after the reunification. And the govt wonders why people want the wall back? They are made second class citizens systematically and kept that way. They have less of everything than immigrants into the west. What would be the objective difference, specially since on a small, personal level most have been better off behind the wall than they are today in the "free" Germany?

    Yes, it's all tragic and everything, but serious, that "outrage" over people who just speak the truth is totally misplaced too. The politraitors should rather think about their own actions and deeds than slandering people for speaking their minds because those same politraitors keep them down and rather make the former east a big green park than really helping, even allowing, them to get anywhere.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    the wall was built in 1961 at the same time when mass-immigration started in western Germany.
    ...
    Are you referring to mass immigration of darker wage pressers? There was migration of Germans from "DDR" to the Western zone for quite a while. What happened was that the brighter, more educated "East"-Germans (East Germans are actually those from Eastern Germany, which is Prussia, Pommerania, Silesia) left for greener pastures (not only in the economic sense as many on the left like to suggest, but actually also in terms of the social climate). That had of course to be stopped by the Concretecommunists, ironically the Neomarxists managed to create an even more totalitarian climate in the West with their political correctness - The Communist countries were more authoritarian in that regard, direct control with less guilt tripping and psychological methods.
    "And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring;..." Plato Politeia

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horagalles
    Are you referring to mass immigration of darker wage pressers?
    I think Ocko refers to the around 1960 started guest-worker's programme, which imported around 2mio Turks mainly (some Italians and some others too, but not in those masses) into the industrial regions, mainly NRW, the Ruhrpott with its mining industry in only few following years.

    A move that wasnt at all "needed" economically. By the mid-50s, the Wirtschaftswunder was in full swing, we didnt need neither any more "help" in regards to workforce nor economically in any way else. It is btw important to note that the "left" SPD protested sharply against the guest-workers programme for the proposed wage dumping connected with it and the foreseeable destruction of living standard for Germans coming from that, as well as foreseeable social problems, while the allegedly "right" CDU and the Liberal Free Marketeers FDP were behind to push it through against large-scale protests from both the SPD, the Unions, and the people. It was also the CDU that blocked the 5-years limit for guest-workers that was brought onto the table as last straw to save the German economy from being undermined and erroded through "cheap imported labor".

    But it was in the high time of the Wirtschaftswunder, end 50s, when the guest-workers programme was planned.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    I think Ocko refers to the around 1960 started guest-worker's programme, which imported around 2mio Turks mainly (some Italians and some others too, but not in those masses) into the industrial regions, mainly NRW, the Ruhrpott with its mining industry in only few following years.

    A move that wasnt at all "needed" economically. By the mid-50s, the Wirtschaftswunder was in full swing, we didnt need neither any more "help" in regards to workforce nor economically in any way else. It is btw important to note that the "left" SPD protested sharply against the guest-workers programme for the proposed wage dumping connected with it and the foreseeable destruction of living standard for Germans coming from that, as well as foreseeable social problems, while the allegedly "right" CDU and the Liberal Free Marketeers FDP were behind to push it through against large-scale protests from both the SPD, the Unions, and the people. It was also the CDU that blocked the 5-years limit for guest-workers that was brought onto the table as last straw to save the German economy from being undermined and erroded through "cheap imported labor".

    But it was in the high time of the Wirtschaftswunder, end 50s, when the guest-workers programme was planned.
    If looking at the origins of CDU, post ww2, Christian Democratic ideology, liberal conservatism, it's no surprise that things happened the way they did.

    The founding members of the CDU consisted primarily of former members of the Centre Party, German Democratic Party, German National People’s Party, and German People’s Party. Many of these individuals, including CDU-Berlin founder Andreas Hermes and future chancellor of Germany Konrad Adenauer, were imprisoned for the involvement in the German Resistance during the Nazi dictatorship.
    One of the lessons learned from the failure of the Weimar Republic was that disunity among the democratic parties ultimately allowed for the rise of the Nazi Party. It was therefore crucial to create a unified party of Christian Democrats – a Christian Democratic ‘’Union’’. The result of these meetings was the establishment of an interconfessional (Catholic and Protestant alike) party influenced heavily by the political tradition of liberal conservatism. The CDU experienced considerable success gaining support from the time of its creation in Berlin on 26 June 1945 until its first convention on 21 October 1950, at which Chancellor Adenauer was named the first Chairman of the party.
    Apart from the German national people's party whose origins are more akin to a traditional right wing Conservative party, it seems as though the stage was set for what was to come. That such a party would be described as right wing in the European class warfare sense is hardly a wonder, any liberal party in support of a market economy would be labeled a right wing party once the battle mainly stood between a market economy or socialism, a battle which was stoked by the outcome of the war and the ensuing conflict between the west and the Soviet union where the market economy had to be defended against ideas about complete socialization.

    With Germany being in the hands of the allies after the war and the de-nazification process and the subsequent state persecution of right wing movements and parties that were too similar to the former regime, this meant that there was very little room for the type of Conservative right which had existed prior to the war in most European countries, and which was expressed in part via the NSDAP, including Germany.

    In light of this, CDU makes perfect sense, and its stance on immigration is no great surprise once one looks past the Conservative or right wing labels. Labels which are still officially embraced, alongside liberalism, by the governing liberal party in Sweden, yet the moderate party of Sweden has effectively removed itself from all but slivers of Conservative thought and proper right wing policies.

    The Conservative label is no guarantee for good policy, nor is right wing, but the fact of the matter is that these labels used to stand for ideas and concepts which were not found on the left except for in cases where the left had adopted the rhetoric or policy of the Conservative right, only to shed this rhetoric or policy over time as they asserted their own ideological roots that were far removed from any Conservative world view.

  5. #15
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    The conservative label is rather a guaranty for bad politics, because it tries to manifest the class struggle and long ago died out feudal systems. The "socialism" of pre-WWII was by no means meant to feed the entire world, it was a very German-centric view on the development of "globalised economy" coming out of the industrial revolution. And indeed, it was supposed to protect Germany from being manipulated too much by it and sold out by the feudals. The socialist parties were in fact much more ethnocentric than the conservatives, who tried and try to conserve the feudal structures that simply dont exist anymore. And this shift in the "left" socialist spectrum in favour of mass immigration and a confused wish to reduce inequalities while importing ever more unequals (and unable to become equals) is very much a recent phenomenon. In fact one that can be observed in connection with the state of the wall. It was the mid-80s when the "iron curtain" started to become porous, and it was then too that the no longer "left" SPD made a 180 turn to become the "pro-immigrants" party, essentially eradicating its socialist goals alltogether in favour of a confused global helper syndrome that confuses socialism with "free benefits for the all and the world", and indeed, aiding the return of the class struggle.

    Real socialism though has a long tradition in Germany, from Germans for the benefit of Germans, reducing the hostility between classes while not aiming at eradicating them since that is impossible and instead still allowing all to benefit from developments and structures nonetheless like good health care, proper nutrition, education and what not. This was already present from the end-19th century. That we gave up this socialism in favour of capitalism and pseudo-feudal structures really is the catastrophy of the post WWII era.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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  6. #16
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    Why aren't these axxhole idiots being arrested for seditious behavior , fomenting dissent to topple the government?

    I have met several former East Germans who immigrated to Texas and we have had long discussions about the "wonderful merits" of Communism (sarcasm intended) and how very much good it did for Germany and it's people - e.g., having to be constantly aware of what you hear and what you say for fear that there isn't a member of the dreaded Stasi (East German equivalent of the Gestapo according to my friends) within earshot, the break up of families separated for more than a quarter of a century.

    Yes, these Liberal/Left Wing lunatics should either be arrested or sent to live in a Communist country (which they seem to be so nostalgic for) so that the German people do not need to listen to the rantings of these obviously "mental-deficients"?
    Last edited by TXRog; Tuesday, August 16th, 2011 at 04:59 PM. Reason: spelling

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