View Poll Results: How would you categorize Austria?

Voters
308. You may not vote on this poll
  • more or less pure germanic

    69 22.40%
  • major germanic

    136 44.16%
  • not declareable

    57 18.51%
  • only minor germanic

    46 14.94%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: How Germanic is Austria?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Hildebrandt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Online
    Sunday, August 19th, 2012 @ 09:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Austrian
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Austria Austria
    State
    Lower Austria Lower Austria
    Gender
    Posts
    68
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    Well, as a Bavarian, Austrian people are very dear to me. Most Austrians are members of the Bajuvarian tribe and culture like myself. Austrians are overwhelmingly Germanic but the periphery to the south-east - the small stripe in the southern parts of Carinthia which has a Slovenian minority(!) and a stripe of Burgenland - is slightly mixed with Slavic and Hungarian elements. There´s also a quite marginal Czech and Slovak impact (former Bohemia) in the North, especially in Vienna, but that doesn´t make Austria significantly less Germanic than Bavaria or other German parts. Most of these slightly mixed periphery zones have their root in the former Habsburg Empire.

    Yes, I also favor this opinion. With exception of the allemanic Vorarlberg (for people not so familiar with Austria: the very west county of Austria) and some little slavic-speaking areas int the south east we all speak bavarian dialects. I am from the North of Lower Austria and our dialect is rather close to those of Lower Bavaria.
    But most Austrians would insist that these dialects have to be called Austrian and not Bavarian. The Bavarians are seen more as Austrians than as Germans.

    Mia Boa k'ehrn zamm und hoidn zamm.
    "zaumm" instead of "zamm"

    Do you really consider Austrians as Bavarians or as close to Bavarians? Because I have never met an Austrian who declared himself as a Bavarian, but of course there is still a minority who feels german (like me).

    Btw: Are not the Bavarians historically a derivation of the Allemanns?

  2. #12
    Lost in Melancholia
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Thusnelda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Bavarian tribe
    Ancestry
    Bavarian
    Subrace
    Nordid-Borreby
    State
    Bavaria Bavaria
    Location
    Over the hills and far away
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Occupation
    Breathing the forest
    Politics
    Regionalist-conservative
    Religion
    Ásatrú/Forn Siðr
    Posts
    4,380
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    37
    Thanked in
    26 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildebrandt View Post
    Do you really consider Austrians as Bavarians or as close to Bavarians?
    Of course, that´s the scientifically proven truth and current academic teaching as well. The ethnogenesis, the "Volkswerdung", of Austrians and Bavarians proves that "both" are members of the Bajuvarian tribe who came to the light of history after the Romans left the regions north of the Alpes.
    Because I have never met an Austrian who declared himself as a Bavarian, but of course there is still a minority who feels german (like me).
    Well, then you´ve met the wrong Austrians because most Austrians I know (even those who aren´t interested in preservation) know about the strong connection between Bavarians and Austrians. They make a clear difference between "Boar" and "Piefke" and, usually, Bavarians aren´t included when Austrians rant about annoying Germans.

    Btw: Are not the Bavarians historically a derivation of the Allemanns?
    No, the Alemanns are an own tribe, just like the Bavarians. But both the Allemanns and us Bajuvarians are the main parts and actors of the "Oberdeutschen Sprach- und Kulturraum".

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #13
    Senior Administrator "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Aeternitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    German
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    1,566
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    44
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    385
    Thanked in
    131 Posts
    Celtic, Romanic and/or Slavic tribes have contributed to the ethnogenesis of other countries that are considered Germanic, including Germany and the Netherlands. Iceland, to give another example, had a considerable Celtic input. The Germanic element was the base and predominant element however and the strongest. Also, "Germanic" being an ethno-cultural and linguistic term, from this point of view Austria is undoubtedly a Germanic country.

    Also, Austrians being Germanic doesn't mean they should ditch their local and regional culture in favor of an overall "German" culture (let's not forget that German culture differs from region to region as well), it's simply a matter of acknowledging a fact. If one is interested in historical and scientific truth, that is.

    Something to keep in mind is that the idea of a Greater Germany and German identity in Austria predates NS and the Hitler era and Austria actually has a lengthier history of German identity than it does of an Austrian one. While the Austrian territory had existed in one form or another for over 700 years within the Holy Roman Empire and later the German Confederation, its only unifying force had been the Habsburgs. Apart from being German inhabited, these Lands had no common "Austrian" identity and there had never been an Austrian state before the First Austrian Republic. Pan-Germanism's origins began with the birth of Romantic nationalism during the Napoleonic Wars, with Friedrich Ludwig Jahn and Ernst Moritz Arndt being early proponents of the current. The German Question was a debate in the 19th century, especially during the Revolutions of 1848, over the best way to achieve the unification of Germany. The 1848 German revolutionaries were initially advocates of a Großdeutschland (Greater Germany) seeking to unite all German-speaking people in Europe. The Deutschlandlied, written in 1841 by Hoffmann von Fallersleben, defines Deutschland in its first stanza as reaching "From the Meuse to the Memel / From the Adige to the Belt", i.e. as including East Prussia and South Tyrol. Although Bismarck's unification shut out the Austrians from his Kleindeutschland state, integrating the Austrian Germans nevertheless remained a strong desire for many people of Germany and Austria alike.

    In Habsburg Austria-Hungary, "German-Austria" (Deutschösterreich) was an unofficial term for the areas of the empire inhabited by Austrian Germans. The term would be later used to represent the Republic of German-Austria -- (Republik) Deutschösterreich or Deutsch-Österreich -- created following World War I as the initial rump state for areas with a predominantly German-speaking population within what had been the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Directions among the largest German parties varied: German Nationalists wanted a constitutional monarchy of free nations; Christian Socialists wanted to maintain monarchy and a federation of nations; Social Democrats wanted a republic that would either be a part or federation of nations or join Germany. A Provisional National Assembly made of party representatives proclaimed that "the German people in Austria are resolved to determine their own future political organization to form an independent German-Austrian state, and to regulate their relations with other nations through free agreements with them". The Provisional Assembly would later take steps in a direction of union with Germany, starting with a resolution that declared that "German-Austria is a constituent part of the German Republic. Special laws regulate the participation of German-Austria in the legislation and administration of the German Republic as well as the extension of the area of validity of the laws and institutions of the German Republic to German-Austria." This would become an article or the new constitution. Their anthem also adhered to their German origins:

    Deutschösterreich, du herrliches Land


    There was even an appeal under Wilsonian doctrine of self-determination to accept a union with Germany. The Greater German People's Party (Großdeutsche Volkspartei, GDVP) also campaigned for a union and promoted a common, shared German identity. A more detailed reading on the matter can be found in the book Post-war German-Austrian Relations: The Anschluss Movement, 1918-1936.

    By the 1920s, Austria's government was dominated by the anti-Anschluss Christian Social Party and this coupled with the opposition of the Western Allies and the Treaty of Saint Germain crippled union attempts and lead to a fail. The state changed its name to the "Republic of Austria" and also lost ethnic German areas/enclaves such as the Sudetenland, German Bohemia, South Tyrol and southern Carinthia and Styria.

    After a couple of decades of struggle, the self-determination of the people of Austria lead to and was ratified as the Anschluß. The Anschluß was certainly a unique moment in Austrian history, and at its time was not viewed as an annexation as it was the result of the will of the people expressed via a referendum and the German troops were met with enthusiasm rather than resistance. And while the Anschluß has its historical significance and merit, identifying Pan-Germanism and Pan-German sentiment as a "Nazi" thing is basically discarding previous centuries of German history and identity. Due to its associations with the NS regime, Pan-Germanism in Austria has basically died out after the end of the Second World War. After 1945, the German national camp was revived in the Federation of Independents (Verband der Unabhängigen), the early Freedom Party of Austria and affiliate student organizations, however the majority of the political camp opposed the idea of a "Greater Germany" for being "anachronistic" and because they wanted to re-deem themselves via the policies of de-nazification. Today it remains a nostalgic idea among about 17% of the FPÖ, some student fraternities in Germany and Austria (Burschenschaften) and there have been a few contemporary Austrians who displayed Pan-German sentiment, starting with Haider -- but who later toned this idea down in order to get more votes --, Andreas Mölzer and Martin Graf (who has Sudeten-German ancestry), who referred to themselves as "cultural Germans" (Kulturdeutsche), and stressed the importance of their identity as ethnic Germans, in contrast to the distinct Austrian national identity. There was a controversy in 2006 when FPÖ members of parliament wore blue cornflowers in their buttonholes, along with ribbons in Austria's national colours (red and white), during the initial meeting of the National Council. This caused controversy, as the media interpreted the flower as a former Nazi symbol. The flower however is a symbol of the Pan-German movement in Austria.



    Here is an article in German language about Austrian national identity. According to the article, only about 7% of the population questions the validity/concept of an Austrian nation, compared with 47% in 1956. The new feeling of a nation was consolidated in the late 60s, early 70s. Of course the association of Pan-Germanism with NS created negative connotations in the minds of generations old and new, and later lead to feelings of dissociation and even contempt - historians and politicians created the post-war idea of a victim nation, Austria having been regarded as "Hitler's first victim". This was recently disputed by the president, who openly declared that "we welcomed Hitler", and which of course is more historically correct.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Aeternitas For This Useful Post:


  5. #14
    Moderator "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Online
    3 Days Ago @ 08:36 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Bavarii, Saxones, Suebi, Alamanni
    Subrace
    Borreby + Atlantonordoid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Einöde in den Alpen
    Gender
    Age
    31
    Zodiac Sign
    Libra
    Family
    Engaged
    Politics
    Tradition & Homeland
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    9,109
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    218
    Thanked in
    127 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by anglian assasin View Post
    Illyrians tribes in Pannonia:
    Pannonia was a province much larger than what we have; its portions in Austria are negligible. Pannonians themselves were an IE group distinct from Illyrians (who have been projected to be a much larger group than they probably were by the province name Illyricum); Illyrians proper are believed to have lived in the area.

    The map you project also says nothing about Austria, the parts this generous map has down for Illyrians is only Pannonia south of the Drau river; that river having generally been the boundary of continuous German settlement to begin with, no one has disputed that anyway. Certainly, no parts of your "Illyria" are in nowadays Austria, but for some reason the theories persist.

    Austria as the center of Halstatt celtic culture:
    Hallstatt culture is more precisely Proto-Celtic; also notice here that the area was sparsely populated then, the Celtic onomastic record is also less pronounced in Austria than most other substrates and adstrates; prominently, yes, but not so prominent to suggest an important substrate into today's population.

    That being striking, notice two dichotomies:

    1)The naming of the Hallstatt crania to typify the "Hallstatt Nordid" type, which is relatively rare in nowadays Austria when compared to types mixed from Dinarids, Nordids and the general Borreby/Alpinid spectrum.

    2)That the Celts were never known as a mountaineering people, much of their onomastic record is to be found in the major valleys, or in wider plains, at best mountainside terraces; however Celts were never known to be alpine farmers. Cf. the fact they called Axams (< oxumenna) a "high-lying village" at some 300 metres above the Inn valley at no more than 878m of elevation; one of the highest-lying Celtic-named settlements also.

    Also, an earlier population doesn't mean anything at all. If we're going to label Austria as importantly Celtic, we might just as well call Bulgaria majority Germanic for the previous existence of the Goths there.

    The name Pannonia (east Austria) derives from Illyrian:
    Pannonia is not descriptive of East Austria and not synonymous therefrom. It derives from the Pannonians, a people closely related but not part of the Illyrians; the Pannonians lived presumably in the great plains in western and central Hungary, where some of the onomastic record suggests a Pannonic stage

    That Pannonia resp. Illyricum were projected on a much larger sample is a typical pars pro toto. When the Grai founded Cumae, the Romans would go on to describe all Hellenes by that. Asia in antiquity referred to Asia minor *only* and nothing else, etc. pp. --- Much as the name England would make no sane person believe that the country were settled solely by Angles, we shouldn't make such keen assumptions for other entities that exist or once existed.

    Here is Tacitus map of Germania: [...] As you can see, initially Germanic people lived north of Austria.
    Then you've obviously never heard of the Völkerwanderung?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    No, the Alemanns are an own tribe, just like the Bavarians. But both the Allemanns and us Bajuvarians are the main parts and actors of the "Oberdeutschen Sprach- und Kulturraum".
    There are some academic strands who would suggest that Bavarians came into being from a mingling between Alemannics and previously existing populations; the evidence usually presented (for instance, syntax) is too dim for me to believe that concept yet.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  6. #15
    Senior Member Leonhardt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Last Online
    Monday, August 20th, 2012 @ 05:28 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic American
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Posts
    518
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    This is the way I read about it.
    They spoke Old High German, and they have incorporated Marcomanni, Thuringians, Goths, Rugians, Heruli, and some outstanding Romans.

    By the way, the name “Bavarian” (“Baiuvari”) means “Men of Baia,” which designates Bohemia, the homeland of the Marcomanni
    http://www.mygermancity.com/bavarian-history
    The Alamanni and the Marcomanni were two main parts of the Suevi(Swabians). When the Marcomanni invaded Bohemia, some Boii fled to Switzerland, and some were incorporated, which shows why Swiss and their neighbors have similar genetics.
    Before the mention of Alamanni in the time of Caracalla, you would search in vain for Alamanni in the moderately detailed geography of southern Germany in Claudius Ptolemy, written in Greek in the mid-2nd century; it is likely that at that time, the people who later used that name were known by other designations.[7]
    The Alamanni confederation came about after the Marcomannic wars.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomannic_Wars
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni

    The Rhaetians are guessed to have left some "G" caucasian input.
    The Balkans have left some Dinaric input.
    The original Boi were said to be Celtic.
    Last edited by Leonhardt; Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 01:42 PM. Reason: added some points

  7. #16
    Senior Member Hildebrandt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Online
    Sunday, August 19th, 2012 @ 09:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Austrian
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Austria Austria
    State
    Lower Austria Lower Austria
    Gender
    Posts
    68
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    Of course, that´s the scientifically proven truth and current academic teaching as well. The ethnogenesis, the "Volkswerdung", of Austrians and Bavarians proves that "both" are members of the Bajuvarian tribe who came to the light of history after the Romans left the regions north of the Alpes.
    Yes, both were members of the Bajuvarian tribes, but nowadays they are Bavarians respectively Austrians. The people from Switzerland and Elsass also do not think to be the same as the population of Baden-Würtemmbergg, although they have the same roots (allemanns).

    I can see the similarities between the Austrians and Bavarians and know that the have the same origin, but nowadays they are a little different - also the language. So I would declare myself of Bajuvarian origin, but not as a Bavarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    Well, then you´ve met the wrong Austrians because most Austrians I know (even those who aren´t interested in preservation) know about the strong connection between Bavarians and Austrians. They make a clear difference between "Boar" and "Piefke" and, usually, Bavarians aren´t included when Austrians rant about annoying Germans.
    Of course we do. Bavarians are not seen as typical Germans by Austrians. We know that they are much more like us than the people from Middle and North Germany. Although the Bavarians are seen as close relatives they are still Bavarians and we are Austrians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    No, the Alemanns are an own tribe, just like the Bavarians. But both the Allemanns and us Bajuvarians are the main parts and actors of the "Oberdeutschen Sprach- und Kulturraum".
    I think I have written once that the Bajuvarians were historically a special line of the older Allemanns, but I am not an expert in this area.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 26th, 2017 @ 09:48 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Gender
    Posts
    105
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    I consider Austria to be a Germanic country, I see Austrians as Germans, close to the Bavarians.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Angela For This Useful Post:


  10. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Last Online
    Thursday, August 30th, 2018 @ 11:24 AM
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Subrace
    Don't know
    mtDNA
    R1a
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    15
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    more Germanic than England?

  11. #19
    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Last Online
    Sunday, November 18th, 2018 @ 11:27 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    8/16 English, 1/16 Scott. English, 3/16 Irish English, 4/16 Irish
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Politics
    Nationalist / Eclectic
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Posts
    549
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    440
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    394
    Thanked in
    241 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Lasgo View Post
    more Germanic than England?
    Outside the few anthroforums, with their pseudo scientific racial ideas, the question would only be seen in terms of language. German is a purer Germanic language than English so Austria is more Germanic in that sense. If you want to look at it genetically, you'd have to pick a modern population to represent the 'ultimate Germanics' then see whether Austrians or English were more similar to that population.

  12. #20
    Senior Member Aelfgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Last Online
    Sunday, November 18th, 2018 @ 11:27 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    8/16 English, 1/16 Scott. English, 3/16 Irish English, 4/16 Irish
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Politics
    Nationalist / Eclectic
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Posts
    549
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    440
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    394
    Thanked in
    241 Posts


    According to the above chart, the Germanic languages in order of purity are:

    Danish
    Icelandic / Norwegian
    Swedish
    Dutch
    German (Austrian)
    English

    English is closer to French than it is to Swedish, presumably due to the Norman French loan words.

    Genetic similarity is a different matter, but, logically, Danes should be the model Germanics for such a list.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Aelfgar For This Useful Post:


Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Germanic Rotterdam & Germanic San Diego; of Equal Importance?
    By OneEnglishNorman in forum Questions About Germanics
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: Monday, September 24th, 2018, 04:11 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Friday, December 2nd, 2016, 04:36 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Tuesday, April 26th, 2016, 05:31 PM
  4. Replies: 109
    Last Post: Wednesday, September 16th, 2009, 07:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •