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Thread: English or Brit(ish)? What is the Difference?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    People who endorse these kind of stupidities to the point of obsession usually have some hardcore insecurities. Could he be a dark complected native Brit? Yes. Could he also be a swarthy non-Brit? Also yes. The guy obviously wants to feel normal in a racial sense. But I don't think someone who was secure about his heritage would develop this kind of obsession, whether he was slightly abnormal or not. It seems likely to me that only someone who was part Whitechapel Jew or Romany would go to these kind of extremes to convince himself the mix isn't 'that bad' and doesn't stop him from being a Briton.
    You exposed yourself as a charlatan a few posts back when you claimed ''Indo-European'' is an outdated term despite the fact Indo-European studies is still a popular choice among academics. I'm not interested in wasting my time with cranks and loons like yourself who are not educated.

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    Senior Member Einarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post
    First of all, there is no such thing as the Aryan or Indo-European race today in pure form. The Aryans or Indo-Europeans were a very small population who intermixed with the Old Europeans and today essentially all Europeans have different quantities of this admixture, but no pure Aryan type exists. The closest to it however is the ''Nordic race'' or Nordic type who have preserved many aspects of the Aryan phenotype (fair hair, light eyes etc).
    How could a "very small population" have affected the hair and eye colors of such a large percentage of the population? Not to mention how recessive the traits are. It is simply impossible.

    Note the following from the research of L. A. Waddell -

    ''As a result of this more or less free intermixture of non-Aryan blood with the Aryan, operating through many centuries, there is now, perhaps, no such thing as an absolutely pure-blooded Aryan left in the British Isles.''

    ''The aggregate Aryan racial element in the population of the British Isles appears to be considerably smaller than what has hitherto been assumed, owing to the original Aryan immigrant stock having been so relatively small in proportion to the main body of the aboriginal population, with their greater prolificness. Yet it is now widely distributed in its relatively pure individual strain, and not confined to one particular class in society. Although the Aryans originally formed the aristocracy of the British Isles, the Aryan type, as evidenced by the Aryan physique and confirmed by Aryan patronymics, appears to be found nowadays more frequent in the ranks of the middle-class society. {As regards Colour, Prof. Parsons finds, on revising and supplementing Beddoe's statistics, that in the modern population of Britain "the upper classes [including the middle class] have an altogether lower index of nigrescence than the lower" (J.R.A.I., 1920, 182)--that is to say, the upper and middle classes are fairer than the lower. Regarding Red Hair, which so frequently accompanies a fair and freckled skin and blue or light eyes, he finds it "is more common in the upper [including middle] than in the lower classes." (ib., 182).}

    From the research of W. H. Fasken (quoting Gunther, p. 257) -

    ''Thus there is no Aryan race. There used to be a race so designated, but the term has become absorbed in the word ''Nordic''.
    Oh good, more "research" and citations from literature written in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Please stop quoting these.


    To answer the second point why Finns speak a non-Indo-European language, you only have to look at the Celts. The Celts were non-Indo-European (they were short, darkish skinned and dark haired) but spoke Celtic an Indo-European language. The idea the Celts were blonde and pale is an 18th century fabrication which was debunked by anthropologists who discovered the Celts were in fact short and swarthy. Because Europe is a mix of non-Indo-European and Indo-European, you therefore had Aryan populations speaking non-Indo-European and vice-versa.
    Horrible answer, and I will ignore many of the glaring inaccuracies in this quote at the moment, since it is unrelated to the discussion. To the point: How could a recessive hair color have affected the Finns so much, if the majority of their population was not of what you describe as "Aryan?" Conversely, there is no way that they could have been majority "Aryan" (as per your definition). Their predominant haplogroup population marker alone would make that impossible.

    I follow and study physical anthropology. Its fallen out of popularity today because of political correctness, but that doesn't mean its not scientifically valid.
    Yes, a pre genetic analysis era of anthropology. One based mostly on estimation and assumptions. Without actual evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post
    You exposed yourself as a charlatan a few posts back when you claimed ''Indo-European'' is an outdated term despite the fact Indo-European studies is still a popular choice among academics.
    That's the study of Indo-European languages, not genetics.

    I'm not interested in wasting my time with cranks and loons like yourself who are not educated.
    Well, OK, but you could at least answer this one questions for me: Which parts of the British Isles have you visited? Obviously not many, which is quite sad in a way. There's some really nice places you've been missing out on. Compared to London, the whole country is orgasmic. Try it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einarr View Post
    How could a "very small population" have affected the hair and eye colors of such a large percentage of the population? Not to mention how recessive the traits are. It is simply impossible.
    They never did. The Indo-European only ever represented the minority upper class or aristocracy, they were only small in population.

    The whole of Europe (excluding the north) is under 30% blonde or fair haired, in most cases it is as low as only 1 - 19%. See Hair-color diversity in and near Europe (after Beals & Hoijer, 1965, p. 214, Reprinted from Beals et al., Introduction to Anthropology also found in Frost, P. 2006. European hair and eye color - A case of frequency-dependent sexual selection? Evolution and Human Behavior 27:85-103). Maps can be found online of this study.

    According to Beals & Hoijer, 1965, Scandinavia is 50%+ blonde (with only two zones in Finland and Sweden being 80% blonde).* That's only half the population but the population in Scandinavia is incredibly small compared to the rest of Europe.

    UK's population is over 60 million, yet the Nordic region combined (which includes the countries of Norway, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Iceland) is only about 25 million. Less than half of UK.

    *Also note this study includes shades of brown as ''light'' or ''fair'', so it is not strictly blonde.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    That's the study of Indo-European languages, not genetics.
    Indo-European = a race, or racial class.

    James Patrick Mallory in his The Oxford Introduction To Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford University Press, 2006) has reconstructured the word Aryan (or 'Arya') from a Proto-Indo-European (PIE) source *A^erdi or ^h^eryos meaning ''member of one's own group '' e.g. an ethnic group or race. You can find the word Aryan across Indo-European languages where it denotes an exalted class, nobility or ruling race -

    ''Celt. — Arhu, command. Co. Aire, chief. GI. AS. — Hearra, lord, master. (Eorl, a chief, leader, hero, man of rank or valour). OE — Erl, a lord. (Erl, a chief, a man of rank or valour). E. — Aryan, as a racial ruling title.''

    ''Sanskrit-Arya, the exalted, or noble, master, lord, an Aryan, one of the 'exalted' ruling race. Arya-man, a companion[Aryan]. Old Persian-Ariya. Iranian- Airya-a racial title used by Darius on his tomb. Has the same general sense as in the Sanskrit. Hittite-Ara, member of one's own group, peer, friend. Lycian[Anatolian language from South- West Anatolia]-Arus, citizens. Greek- Areion, better, stronger, braver, usually derived from Ares, war, but probably cognate with Airo, exalt. Ar-istos, best. Heros, a hero, a freeman. Arios or Herios a title of the Medes and Persians. Aeria or Herie, a Greek name for Egypt. Harma-chariot. Gothic-Harri, lord or king. Her, a noble man. Her-sir, a chief, a lord. Norwegian-Herre, lord, master, gentleman. German-Herr, lord, master, gentleman. Dutch-heer, lord, master, gentleman. Cornish and Celtic-Arhu, command. Old English-Hearra, lord, master. Eorl, Erl-cognate with Jarl, a chief, leader, hero, man of valour.''

    The Aryans were the blonde ruling classes and nobility of ancient Europe and outside of Europe e.g. in Mesopotamia and Egypt.

    Well, OK, but you could at least answer this one questions for me: Which parts of the British Isles have you visited? Obviously not many, which is quite sad in a way. There's some really nice places you've been missing out on. Compared to London, the whole country is orgasmic. Try it.
    I've been all over United Kingdom.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post
    They never did. The Indo-European only ever represented the minority upper class or aristocracy, they were only small in population.

    The whole of Europe (excluding the north) is under 30% blonde or fair haired, in most cases it is as low as only 1 - 19%. See Hair-color diversity in and near Europe (after Beals & Hoijer, 1965, p. 214, Reprinted from Beals et al., Introduction to Anthropology also found in Frost, P. 2006. European hair and eye color - A case of frequency-dependent sexual selection? Evolution and Human Behavior 27:85-103). Maps can be found online of this study.

    According to Beals & Hoijer, 1965, Scandinavia is 50%+ blonde (with only two zones in Finland and Sweden being 80% blonde).* That's only half the population but the population in Scandinavia is incredibly small compared to the rest of Europe.

    UK's population is over 60 million, yet the Nordic region combined (which includes the countries of Norway, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Iceland) is only about 25 million. Less than half of UK.

    *Also note this study includes shades of brown as ''light'' or ''fair'', so it is not strictly blonde.
    Are these maps false then? You also still haven't answered my question. How could such a small population have affected the hair and eye color percentages of the base population so greatly? Especially that it had to best the recessive issue on top of the imbalanced ratio.


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    There was a time not long ago when the English would fly the Union flag to support England which seems odd now after the process of devolution has firmly set in. Somehow England's cultural dominance muted the larger meaning. They weren't after all interested in the performances of Wales or Scotland. Britain is either a geographical term or a political one. Britain is not a country in itself. A Briton historically means Welshman and no one in England would have thought themselves as British until well after 1707 when the crowns were united.

    Interestingly though the Scots and Welsh remain largely nationalistic and anti English the calls for a United Kingdom came from a Scots King and from those seeking financial redress from Scotland's failed attempts at establishing overseas colonies. Yes folks it wasn't about a grand political and ideological gesture it was about cold hard cash and investment insurance. Studies show that ethnics elsewhere other than England may think of themselves as Scottish or Welsh but less likely in England - prefering the vague "British" a lot of English people still say British whilst meaning English but this is on the decline. A media term and an inaccurate one. This experiment with identity is a bit of a failure. I loathe the term Brit. Is a Dane a Skando? nahhh. they hate the Swedes folks. It's all too vague.

    Without a time machine and a bucket of woad or fluency in y Gymraig you can't be a Brit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linden View Post
    1) What a stupid arguement. Yes, the Germanics landed on the east coast, but what did they do? Stay there? No, within 30 years of their arrival they were as far west as central Wales.
    2) In 1998 66% of the English population had blue eyes. The only counties in which dark eyes were found to be more common than light were Cornwall, Dorset, Hampshire, Herefordshire and Surrey.
    3) Wow, you actually got something right for once! Yes, 63% of the English population does have brown or dark hair. Did you also know that Brown/Dark hair is also the most common hair colour in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands...and every other European nation except four (Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden).

    Almost all of the information you provide is either outdated or perhaps made up?
    What? Update your information.
    66% blue-eyed? No way. The national average for blue eyes in Denmark is 50.7% by the way
    According to the 2014 ScottishDNA and Blue Eye projects study on the British population, these are the frequencies of blue eyes in the various English regions.
    The most common eye colour in England is blue, and the second most common is green (ScottishDNA 2014). Light eyes (blue/green/gray) predominate over dark eyes(brown) in every English region.
    Central England = 50%
    Yorkshires = 49%
    North-East England = 47%
    South-East England = 44%
    East England = 41%
    South-West England = 35%
    The most common hair colour in England is brown. As whole, 57% of the English are brown-haired, though this varies greatly county by county.
    % of brown hair in South-West England region;
    - Cornwall = 67%
    - Devon = 56%
    - Dorset = 55%
    - Gloucestershire = 62%
    - Somerset = 69%
    - Wiltshire = 72%

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    My Dad was once told by a Paki at work: "I'm as English as you".

    To which he replied: "You may be 'British' by virtue of a stamp in your passport but you will never be English!"

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    I don't know if there's an agenda at work but the terms British and English are now used interchangeably in the media.

    It tends to irritate the non-English in particular. For example, I remember Andy Murray (the tennis player) complaining that when he won anything he was British but if he lost he was a Scot (..actually, he was not amused! )

    In a lot of people's minds (especially overseas) these islands are 'English'. For example, the French call the Battle of Britain "la Bataille d'Angleterre", which I always thought was just a quirk they had, but the Germans also call it "die Luftschlacht um England" so there's clearly some conflation of Britain and England in foreign circles.

    I was reminded of this last night when Chlodovech wanted to show some 'English' girls behaving badly and posted a series of photos from Cardiff & Aberystwyth (.. I hope he never goes to Wales for his holidays ) so it seems like more or less everyone here on the mainland is now considered 'English'.

    I find there's a vaguely amusing side to this but I can't speak for all of my compatriots

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