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Thread: English or Brit(ish)? What is the Difference?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Berrocscir's Avatar
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    Culturally I'm English, genetically I'm British. I read somewhere that much of 'Brit' DNA has come down from the Ice Age settlers.

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    Senior Member Linden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post

    Conclusion

    1. The only light eyed and light haired regions are on the east coast of England and Scotland were the Norse or Germanics landed.

    2. Most Britons are hazel or medium eyed, while darker are still more common than those with light blue.

    3. Average hair colour = brown. Again dark brown more common than fair. Only 25% blondes or fair haired in Scotland, 30 - 35 % in England. Those with brown or dark brown hair are the majority.
    1) What a stupid arguement. Yes, the Germanics landed on the east coast, but what did they do? Stay there? No, within 30 years of their arrival they were as far west as central Wales.
    2) In 1998 66% of the English population had blue eyes. The only counties in which dark eyes were found to be more common than light were Cornwall, Dorset, Hampshire, Herefordshire and Surrey.
    3) Wow, you actually got something right for once! Yes, 63% of the English population does have brown or dark hair. Did you also know that Brown/Dark hair is also the most common hair colour in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands...and every other European nation except four (Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden).

    Almost all of the information you provide is either outdated or perhaps made up?

  3. #33
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    I wasn't aware we're solely talking about the Scottish here, we've actually talked either about the English or British in general.

    I agree that a light or medium brown shade is the most common colour both in Scotland and Britain.
    But in an anthropological sense this is still considered rather light though just like light-mixed eyes are.
    Anything else is impractical in regards to populations and their traits which always have to be seen in comparison.

    Maybe it's simply a matter of definition and by dark hair you mean medium brown hair in the same way you see light-mixed eyes as "hazel".

    Again from Coon:
    The decision as to the midpoint between blond and brunet hair and eye pigmentation hinges largely on one's definition of pure blondism. For practical purposes, pure eye blondism includes gray and blue eyes, wit or without a small number of pigmented spots, or a narrow pigmented ring, near the pupillary border of the iris. It is impossible to segregate the spotted and unspotted in most data. Pure hair blondism includes, in the same arbitrary fashion, hair that ranges from light brown to ashen or golden.
    In his footnotes he also refers to Tocher and Gray, as did Beddoe, as his sources for pigmentation of hair and eye but provides following percentages for Scotland:

    In Scotland, 32 per cent of adult males have pure light eyes, 48 per cent are called mixed, and 20 per cent dark. The latter category probably includes a number of dark-mixed iris patterns.
    I'm not exactly sure how you came to your conclusions because they're sometimes simply not deducible from your sources and at times outright contradict them.

    In any case, physical anthropology can provide hints to actual descent but it's by no means the end.
    Definitely not all non-Germanics were brunette and not all Germanics were blond to begin with.

    By the way this thread went offtopic at the beginning of page 2, maybe someone should split the thread.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berrocscir View Post
    Culturally I'm English, genetically I'm British. I read somewhere that much of 'Brit' DNA has come down from the Ice Age settlers.
    Exactly. The Germanic input was only 5%. It was only the Germanic language and culture that dominated. Most Brits on this forum however seem to be in denial of this, when our heritage in fact dates back to the Neolithic to the aborigines after the Ice Age who first settled here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linden View Post
    1) What a stupid arguement. Yes, the Germanics landed on the east coast, but what did they do? Stay there? No, within 30 years of their arrival they were as far west as central Wales.
    When the Anglo-Saxons landed the population of Britain was around 1. 5 million. In contrast there was only a few ten thousand Saxons. In fact the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and other sources list the exact amount of Saxon or Angle ships that arrived on the English coasts. We are talking only of small bands of Germanic warriors who arrived by boat, not a mass invasion. This is why the Germanic genetic input was no more than 5%. What you therefore had was a small population of the Aryan-Germanic upper classes ruling over the mass lower populations (who were not Germanic). The pre-Germanic inhabitants were basically the ''second citizens''. This is all detailed in Anglo-Saxon literature, such as the Exeter Book.

    The Exeter Book describes the different appearance of the pre-Germanic natives and the Saxons. The Saxons are described as blonde or fair haired (hwitloe) while the pre-Germanic inhabitants as wonfeax wale - swarthy (brunette) welsh.

    See The riddles of the Exeter book. Edited with introduction, notes, and glossary, by Frederick Tupper (1910) which notes that the ''servant'' (lower class) was dark haired and swarthy while the Saxons were blonde, all sources are listed.

    Riddle 12 (13) from The Exeter Book

    I travel by foot, trample the ground,
    the green fields, for as long as I live
    Lifeless, I fetter dark Welshmen
    sometimes their betters too. At times
    I give a warrior liquor from within me,
    at times a stately bride steps on me;
    sometimes a slave-girl, raven (black) haired,
    brought far from Wales, cradles and presses me -
    some stupid, sozzled maidservant fills me
    with water on dark nights, warms me
    by the gleaming fire, on my breast
    she places a wanton hand and writhes about,
    then sweeps me against her dark declivity.
    What am I called who, alive, lay waste
    the land and, dead, serve humankind?

    --- Describes a dark black haired, swarthy skinned Welsh slave girl.

    People who in this thread claim the native Britons were light haired are completely wrong, they clearly have never read the old literature. The natives were dark haired, the Aryan (Indo-European) Germanics were the blondes. The Exeter Book makes this very clear.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    I agree that a light or medium brown shade is the most common colour both in Scotland and Britain.
    There is nothing ''medium'' about brown. All shades of brown are dark (brunette). The ancient Greeks for example only ever had 3 colour descriptions of hair (excluding gray), one covered shades of fair (xanthos), the other shades of red (purros) and the other shades of dark (kuanoxai). Sometimes black had a seperate colour name, but it is standard to see brown equated to dark throughout history because it is simply a dark shade.

    And as you agree the vast bulk of Britons are Brunettes, not fair haired.

    I'm not exactly sure how you came to your conclusions because they're sometimes simply not deducible from your sources and at times outright contradict them.
    I'm referencing the actual original sources. Beddoe from his study proved only 14% of Scots had light eyes. The bulk were hazel or 'medium', while the rest were dark. Coon is not using Beddoe's original terms, and is lumping probably hazel or mixed-eyes as ''light''.

    Definitely not all non-Germanics were brunette and not all Germanics were blond to begin with.
    I would disagree. Not one ancient source describes the ancient Germanics as dark, they are always found described as blonde, yellow, golden, flaxen or red haired.

    Dark hair = pre-Indo-European.
    Fair hair = Indo-European (Aryan).
    Red hair = ???? origins disputed

  7. #37
    Senior Member StevenOfMercia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post
    When the Anglo-Saxons landed the population of Britain was around 1. 5 million. In contrast there was only a few ten thousand Saxons. In fact the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and other sources list the exact amount of Saxon or Angle ships that arrived on the English coasts. We are talking only of small bands of Germanic warriors who arrived by boat, not a mass invasion. This is why the Germanic genetic input was no more than 5%. What you therefore had was a small population of the Aryan-Germanic upper classes ruling over the mass lower populations (who were not Germanic). The pre-Germanic inhabitants were basically the ''second citizens''. This is all detailed in Anglo-Saxon literature, such as the Exeter Book.

    The Exeter Book describes the different appearance of the pre-Germanic natives and the Saxons. The Saxons are described as blonde or fair haired (hwitloe) while the pre-Germanic inhabitants as wonfeax wale - swarthy (brunette) welsh.

    See The riddles of the Exeter book. Edited with introduction, notes, and glossary, by Frederick Tupper (1910) which notes that the ''servant'' (lower class) was dark haired and swarthy while the Saxons were blonde, all sources are listed.

    Riddle 12 (13) from The Exeter Book

    I travel by foot, trample the ground,
    the green fields, for as long as I live
    Lifeless, I fetter dark Welshmen
    sometimes their betters too. At times
    I give a warrior liquor from within me,
    at times a stately bride steps on me;
    sometimes a slave-girl, raven (black) haired,
    brought far from Wales, cradles and presses me -
    some stupid, sozzled maidservant fills me
    with water on dark nights, warms me
    by the gleaming fire, on my breast
    she places a wanton hand and writhes about,
    then sweeps me against her dark declivity.
    What am I called who, alive, lay waste
    the land and, dead, serve humankind?

    --- Describes a dark black haired, swarthy skinned Welsh slave girl.

    People who in this thread claim the native Britons were light haired are completely wrong, they clearly have never read the old literature. The natives were dark haired, the Aryan (Indo-European) Germanics were the blondes. The Exeter Book makes this very clear.
    The lack of Celtic words in the English tongue refute this, there is no way for you to get around that fact, an overlord minority gets consumed into the culture of the subject majority.


    I have never hear such tosh,

    Plus your estimate of 1.5 million takes the assumption of no Germanic blood in the 1.5 million before the Angles and Saxons stepped off the boat, the Germanic tribes that came as the Romans swept, and displaced and scared spilt.

    The evidence of the DNA between Danes and us and us and the Welsh can not be forged nor erased by your wild theories.

    Every bit of real evidence goes against your claims, as for the numbers that landed lol that was priceless, yes a few landed on plymouth rock USA, didnt stop at a few though did it?

    From names of places, to culture to linguistic features that mark the saxons push to every other Germanic soul that invaded before and after to DNA you are spouting clap trap.

    Bring hard evidence not 10 cent theories, the University of London has already peed all over them, get up to date!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenOfMercia View Post
    I have never hear such tosh,

    Plus your estimate of 1.5 million takes the assumption of no Germanic blood in the 1.5 million before the Angles and Saxons stepped off the boat, the Germanic tribes that came as the Romans swept, and displaced and scared spilt.
    There is no evidence of Germanic tribes in Britain before the settlement by the Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes) in the 5th and 6th century AD other than Tacitus' brief reference to a hypothetical Germanic origin of the Caledonians (c. 98 AD). The only other Indo-Europeans in Britain before the Germanics was a small colony of Trojans (Luwians) and Hittites from Anatolia, as told by Geoffrey of Monmouth in his Historia Regnum Britanniae and the Historia Brittonum. There is also evidence of an early Phoenician settlement in Britain (especially Cornwall), though their ethnicity or racial type is still debated.

    The evidence of the DNA between Danes and us and us and the Welsh can not be forged nor erased by your wild theories.
    There are DNA links among all populations in Europe.

    Bring hard evidence not 10 cent theories, the University of London has already peed all over them, get up to date!
    You made no references to your wild claims, secondly as far as modern mainstream science is concerned it has fully confirmed my views, not yours. Modern scientists are saying Britons descend from an aborigine Neolithic population after the ice age, while only a miniscule 5% of genetic input from the Germanics. This is the argument the BNP are using to prove indigenous British exist. The left-wing loons in contrast promote the myth that Britons or particuarly the English descend from Germanic immigrants - their agenda is to justify multiculturalism etc. I wasn't expecting to join this forum and see people support this same agenda here.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyramidologist View Post
    There is nothing ''medium'' about brown. All shades of brown are dark (brunette).
    Light brown:



    Dark brown:




    I'm referencing the actual original sources. Beddoe from his study proved only 14% of Scots had light eyes. The bulk were hazel or 'medium', while the rest were dark. Coon is not using Beddoe's original terms, and is lumping probably hazel or mixed-eyes as ''light''.
    Most lowland Scottish people have blue eyes. How do I know this? Because I have lived here my whole life and I have met countless native Scots over the years and blue is by far the most common eye colour up here. In fact, I don't think I know anyone with hazel eyes... oh wait, I remember one or two. But that's about it.

    However I understand that, living in London, you may have to consult studies and charts from time to time to get some idea of what British people look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edie View Post
    Most lowland Scottish people have blue eyes. How do I know this? Because I have lived here my whole life and I have met countless native Scots over the years and blue is by far the most common eye colour up here.
    See the peer-reviewed anthropological journal sources i linked to, Beddoe's studies only concluded 14% of light eyes for Scottish children. Juthunge also linked to Coon who put light eyed Scots at only 30 or so percent, but he was including more eye categories under ''light'' (so not strictly light blue or gray). Both results though show Scottish people to be in the minority light eyed while 48 - 60% (the majority) having hazel or ''medium'' (which is what i said from the start).

    The old Mediterranid Scottish type -

    Charles Rennie Mackintosh

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