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Thread: Operation Barbarossa (June 22, 1941)

  1. #11
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    Honestly I think if Hitler had waited and let the Russians attack first he would have won.
    Not so sure about that.

    It would have deprived future 'historians' of a lot of propaganda though.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astragoth View Post
    Honestly I think if Hitler had waited and let the Russians attack first he would have won.
    So, he waits until 42/43, watches how the Allies (US, Britain & the Commonwealth, and Soviet Union) prepare to overrun Germany, and then wins? How so?

    If we hadnt taken the initiative, Europe would have been communist by '43, with the active and willed support of the "western" allies!
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    Senior Member Astragoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    So, he waits until 42/43, watches how the Allies (US, Britain & the Commonwealth, and Soviet Union) prepare to overrun Germany, and then wins? How so?

    If we hadnt taken the initiative, Europe would have been communist by '43, with the active and willed support of the "western" allies!
    Or he waits two weeks until the Russian army attacks first (and we all saw how efficiently they attacked in Finland) then conducts a mobile defense waits until the Russians are over extended. Then releases his tanks surrounds the entire army and wins the war in a month or less. If the Russians had attacked first they would've lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astragoth View Post
    Honestly I think if Hitler had waited and let the Russians attack first he would have won.
    There's a multitude of things Hitler could have done to make good on his invasion of the Soviet Union, but all things considered he should have invaded sooner.

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    The Soviets would've attacked when they were ready - that could've been 1942 or 1943, depending on the strategic picture in general, but why not much later? Without Operation Barbarossa (or something almost equally risky, like an Operation Sealion, either in 1940 or later) nothing would've ever been able to break the back of the Germany army, not as long as they kept their main force intact, especially that small elite of 200.000 specialists which made the Blitzkrieg possible, the men who operated armored vehicles and tanks, the paras and the motorized units as well as Luftwaffe pilots. Stalin would've been very reluctant about making the first move if the Germans still possessed superior armed forces.

    Moreover, if the Germans don't go to the UK and don't go to the Soviet Union, they can only go South - where they could've potentially won the war - and the Afrikakorps would've had much more of everything it needed and be able to conquer the Middle East all the way up to Iran and Turkey, both of these countries may then flip to the Axis side, opening pathways into India and in the case of any conflict with the USSR, the Caucasus - while blowing up the Suez Channel on its way. Plus, Germany's oil issue would've been solved and it could far easier reinforce its forces in the Middle East through Turkey in the case of an Anglo-American counterattack.

    Yes, the Red Army was still reeling from Stalin's purges in 1941, which also explains the abysmal peformance of the Soviets against Finland, at least in part, but the Soviets were drawing lessons from the Winter War and were getting stronger fast. They had just begun to equip their armored forces with the T-34 tank, superior to any tank the Germans possessed at the time. They were building up their strength with every pasisng year and they would've attacked when they were ready, potentially even surprising the Germans with their own invasion of Prussia, occupied Poland and Eastern Europe.

    If a huge number of T34s flood Eastern Europe in 1943 or later, would the Germans have had a tank to oppose it? Maybe one type, but not a tank which was better than the T34. Tanks like the Panther and Tiger and tank destroyers such as the jagdpanther were developed as an answer to the T34 (a tank the Germans didn't even know existed in 1941) and precisely because of the war experience in the Soviet-Union. Of, course, The Germans would've still stopped this invasion due to a mix of Soviet inexperience and incompetence and Germany's own superior capabilities - as winning wars is about far more than possessing a single superior weapon. The Soviets had no idea how to use their T34s and tank forces in general in 1941, for example, while the Germans knew what to do with their lighter tanks. It could've taken years to drive the Soviets beyond Minsk though, if the Soviets initiate hostilities fairly late in the war.

    I don't think the Germans would've had a better chance at defeating the Red Army if the Red Army had attacked first. They would've halted the Soviets and driven them back, but they would not have made it to Moscow in a few months like they historically did and if they ever make it that far, then with far more casualties. Moreover, Western-Europe's food supplies were rapidly dwindling because of the British naval blockade in 1941, taking over Ukraine during Operation Barbarossa solved that issue - there was a pressing economic reason to invade.

    Let's suppose WW2 becomes a very drawn out affair like the Napoleonic wars, with the British Empire refusing to make an armistice for ten or fifteen years, perhaps only because the Germans lose the Battle for the Atlantic on this alternative timeline too and because the U.S. enters the war, keeping the Brits in the war. There's no way D-Day can ever become a success, it's inconceivable the Western allies would ever have been able to pull off a D-Day against the full might of the unbroken Wehrmacht. I don't think it's likely the Germans would've simply surrendered either if the first atomic bombs were to be dropped on Germany, it's not like the U.S. could produce many of these bombs in 1945 or the first few years after 1945, they would've only had a handful of these and the Germans may develop a few of their own too. They would've had to play catch up but they'll figure everything out eventually. Moreover, the Germans would've responded with chemical air attacks on British cities (the Japanese couldn't do that to the Americans in 1945). And the Germans would've had far more resources and reasons to invest in wunderwaffen without Operation Barbarossa, making the historical V1 and V2 attacks on the U.K. seem like a picnic. As long as the USSR stays out of the war, Germany can not lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar
    There's a multitude of things Hitler could have done to make good on his invasion of the Soviet Union, but all things considered he should have invaded sooner.
    Like when? This better be not about the Italians, the weather and climate change.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    Senior Member Ravenrune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Not so sure about that.

    It would have deprived future 'historians' of a lot of propaganda though.

    From what I have read , the preemptive attack by Germany destroyed a lot of material however, Hitler underestimated the shear amount of war machines (tanks, etc) that the Soviet Union had produced.

    From the sources I have read and thought about, I am thinking that this attack did slow down and occupy the Soviets enough to limit their take-over to eastern Europe.

    It is a strange thing to come to a conclusion that is 100% at odds with what you are taught by every mainstream source (school, books, tv, movies, etc) ...but the idea that Hitler saved most of Europe from being swamped by communism is seeming like a huge totally covered-up truth.

    I know that the mainstream blames Hitler (we live in the era of "blame Hitler and call everything you don't like Hitler" lol) for attacking the "innocent" Soviet Union in his alleged mad desire to take over the world , but I no longer believe that at all. It was Bolshevik communism under Stalin that had that plan to take over Europe and spread communism! This threat had been starting since the turmoil at the end of World War I. This inconvenient part of history is something we are totally never told because they don't want to give even a tiny speck or reasoning for the creation of National Socialism to combat the threat of Bolshevism.


    All said, it is easy after the fact to say what should have been done, but at a certain time, with certain intelligence , a decision has to be made based on hopefully at least reasonable information but likely at least partly hunches and fears.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Astragoth's Avatar
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    Theres a book out there written by a soviet general that states that Hitler beat Stalin by two weeks.
    That said Hitler wasn't psychic he made the decision he thought best with the information he had.
    It's just a case of what might have been.

  9. #18
    Senior Member Ravenrune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astragoth View Post
    Theres a book out there written by a soviet general that states that Hitler beat Stalin by two weeks.
    That said Hitler wasn't psychic he made the decision he thought best with the information he had.
    It's just a case of what might have been.
    One of my main concerns are some informations that certain military leaders were trying to get better cold weather clothes and materials for the German soldiers in the east ... the winter weather was harsh and not having proper clothing and effects to deal with it was a major problem. It just seems that from some information (not mainstream of course) it points that Hitler should have taken that much more seriously.

    Obviously this is from what point of view I can attain from information I can get ... and so if I do not have complete or proper full information, my view may be incomplete or biased.

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    Senior Member Astragoth's Avatar
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    There was a rare recording of Hitler and his inner circle talking about Russia and Barbarossa.
    They had no idea of what they were facing and little choice. If you had told them they were
    facing 24,000 tanks they would've laughed in your face. How could a country have a military
    like that while having a social budget? The answer was simple the soviets didn't have a social
    budget. For the Germans was a matter of going with what you had when you had it and hoping for the best.

  11. #20
    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    These claims from a few Russian historians/journalists and the like about Stalin being on the verge of going on the attack himself in the summer of 1941 aren't credible. A reverse Operation Barbarossa (namely "Operation Icebreaker") was not an option back then. The Soviets were far from ready with their preparations. Military History Visualized did a video on this subject but I can't find it right now, yet it pretty much settled the debate. The Soviets were making considerable efforts to placate the Germans to avoid war in 1941.

    Operation Barbarossa was staged to secure food and raw materials and prevent potential Soviet blackmail later on in the war as the German war industry depended on trade with the USSR, to eliminate the British Empire's hope of the Soviets ever entering the war and making the war winnable for the Brits, and, indeed, pre-empt a Soviet invasion of Europe, not by a few weeks or months, but by at least a year and probably much longer. Molotov had made Soviet intentions clear with his unacceptable territorial demands in the Balkans during negotiations in 1940.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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