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Thread: Goth-Industrial-EBM As Implicitly Racialist?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Goomer's Avatar
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    Sauerteig, if a person like me can like this sort of music and not be *swallowed up* in the scene itself, there has got to me more women out there who are not highschoolers in mentality, but who just find that this sort of music speaks to them.

    My personal favorite bands of this genre are:

    VNV Nation
    Nine Inch Nails
    Sisters of Mercy
    Apoptygma Berserk
    Covenant

    The other thing about much of this genre I find is that it doesn't necessarily have to be about the lyrics, the band members, or even the social issues embedded within some of its themes. It's more about the mood of the music itself.

    My guess is that this sort of music will appeal mostly to those of a more melancholic or deep nature; almost on a primal level. If that makes any sense

  2. #22
    Senior Member Magni's Avatar
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    Yeah, goth in all of its forms seems to be apolitical for the most part.


    And on Sisters of Mercy.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Goth has never been political. It's an aesthetic movement based on pale skin and black clothing. This is why Goth really is the ultimate in musical racism. You simply can't be black and be a goth. That doesn't mean some blacks haven't tried, but the end result is so patently absurd that the mind simply blocks it out.

    Industrial seems more left leaning in general. Mostly do to the fact that industrial types are failed goths. I do remember this one industrial act called Consolidated who were these raving Marxists. Geez, they were funny, and not in the good way.

    Power electronics, and to a lesser extent neo-folk, are much more aggressively racial than either goth or industrial.
    Omnia risus et omnis pulvis et omnia nihil - HPL

    "Oh, you should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about." - Willy Wonka

    “niemand bleibt hier” - Maria Orsic

  4. #24
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    Diversity in Outcasts: Ending Racism in Goth Subculture

    In the past, I wrote an article on the Gothic subculture to educate those unfamiliar with it: "Goths Are Artists: The Truth About Gothic Subculture." I wrote it to help decrease the discrimination that stems from all of the misunderstandings surrounding it. With this article, I would like to focus on an issue within the culture which I was personally surprised to learn about a subculture I have been part of for over ten years.

    As an "out group," the goth subculture is known for accepting those who aren't accepted anywhere else; unfortunately, some goths are excluding black people from the subculture without realizing how hypocritical and damaging it is.

    Goth is a subculture about style, art, and self-expression. It is not a racial movement. Although the meaning of Goth varies from person to person, all agree on the ability to recognize beauty in the darker things. In a world that embraces distraction from what is negative, goths highlight the unpleasant realities of life by making them beautiful in an artist way. For example, even though goths seem to concentrate on death they are really celebrating the life of the person who died. The tradition of occupying graveyards is to visit those who have passed on. Most graves are not visited regularly by family and friends. When goths visit them, they are not interested in dying, but in feeling the presence of those who have passed on.

    Most images of "goth" is someone with very light skin and dark hair who wears dark clothes; however, not all goths look alike or fit the stereotype. Some goths do wear colors other than shades of black and some do not have black hair or black nail polish. Each goth has their own unique style.

    Many white goths are surprised and confused by the racism expressed to some black goths. When white goths speak out against racism in the community it gives more attention and acknowledgement to the complaints about racism. When white goths encourage racism in the community it ruins an already misunderstood subculture. Being goth is about embracing the unusual, not oppressing it. Racist goths do not realize how hypocritical their outlook and words are. After all, racism comes from absurd misunderstandings about skin color's correlation with behavior. One's skin color cannot dictate their behavior just as someone's being goth is not directly related to how they act.

    Misunderstood groups, such as goths, should embrace diversity rather than eliminate it. Being goth has too many definitions to put restrictions on who can and can't be a goth. Goth is about more than one thing. Those who really fall in love with it end up making it part of their identity. The more diverse the group the more likeliness that it will be accepted. If only one type of person becomes goth, in this case white people, ignorance and hatred will just continue from the black community. It would be just another thing they are told not to do because of their skin tone. When we share oppression and turn our uniqueness into art we are able to help outsiders accept and respect us.
    http://hubpages.com/politics/The-Rac...hic-Subculture

  5. #25
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    As most music genres gothic/industrial can nowadays be found almost anyplace in the world. While calling it racialist or preservationist would be indeed a stretch, it is however tangential with Germanic culture.

    Goths will usually take an interest in dark topics such as the occult, esoterism, heathenism/paganism/Wicca, or Germanic Christianity. Gothic and particularly symphonic metal bands often draw their inspiration from (Celto-)Germanic and other European folklore and fantasy. They can take either a nostalgic, back to the past/medieval direction or an alternate, futuristic, post-apocalyptic one. Steampunk, British Victorian era or American "Wild West" motives are also present in the genre. Gothic style takes some of its roots from dark romanticism, transcendentalism and related genres - Poe, Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, Hawthorne, Emerson and Thoreau - who were fascinated with understanding death and goths also have this curiosity and open mindedness to learn about the unconventional.

    The archetypal goth with excessively pale skin and dark hair indicates European/Germanic heritage, though this image stems from the association with palor mortis, vampires, spirits or ghosts. The archetype has been recently challenged and subcultures/reactions such as Afro-Punk , Industrial anti-oppression and goths of color have emerged as an answer to the perceived racial monopoly/discrimination of the punk/rock/goth scene.

    The gothic, alternative and metal music culture, particularly in the US and Europe has been overwhelmingly white. In the early 21st century, Afro-punks made up a minority in the North American punk scene. The counterculture was sparked by a documentary, which covers and explores issues of loneliness, exile, interracial dating, identity crisis, etc. It can be said as such that Afro-Punk has become a movement and as such is much more political than the gothic scene overall, like the early hip hop movement was. The scene has supplanted much of the punk/gothic subculture in Afro communities and has spread to Africa and the Caribbean.

    While the gothic scene isn’t really political — it’s rather the punk scene that involved political and racial motives into their music —it’s not uncommon for people to develop an ideological interest through the gothic scene and the gothic scene appeals to people who are already into Germanic preservation. The scene is often attractive to rebellious teenagers, and questioning the status quo on societal matters can ultimately also take a more political turn. One can find songs among the gothic genre with European-centric, or Germanic lyrics and motives. e.g. In the Heart of Europe, by the darkwave duo L'Âme Immortelle.

    Many people turn to gothic subculture because of feeling alienated in society. I got to know this genre because I found I couldn't like much of the mainstream, and the bands that were popular back then didn't appeal much to me (boy and girl bands were the thing back in the day). The attire and the music are forms of expression. And while I wouldn't say that it was particularly gothic music that shaped my world view, it certainly contributed to it. The music often deals with controversial, taboo and thought-provoking topics, it concentrates on societal evils and other "unhappy" topics that mainstream culture treats with ignorance and forgetfulness. Goths often feel alienated from the world and dream of alternate, long gone realities, not unlike romantic nationalists for example. Goths like nationalists can be both reactionary and progressive. There is also no shortage or introvert thinkers among listeners of the genre. The pred. black/dark style and attire is a form of expressing concepts such as 'I want to be left alone but I want to be seen', 'I want to make a point' etc.

  6. #26
    Sound methods Chlodovech's Avatar
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    The imagery used by these genres mentioned in the title - and a few related ones - are distinctly European, but more often distinctly militaristic or fascist (with the exception of goth). They're implicitly racialist, but still more in the mind of a far leftist who rails against these scenes in part because of the crowd they draw: "there's not enough P.o.C.", they say. They consider metal "too white" for the same reasons.

    There are certain lyrics which may inspire ethnonationalists and trad. nats, but very few goth/industrial/EBM/martial bands are politically inspired and they will sooner say that they're leftists than admit to being genuinely interests in the preservation of our heritage.

    Still, these alternative genres are the refuge to those whom mainstream music, with all its vices, holds no appeal. So it's still something many of us who are younger than 40 listen to for all the right reasons.

    Germany has countless medieval folk rock/folk metal and medieval ballad bands as well, what could be said about goth & ethnonationalism could be said about them too. You'd like many of these bands, Aeternitas.
    “Remember that all worlds draw to an end and that noble death is a treasure which no-one is too poor to buy.” - C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle

  7. #27
    Senior Member RoyBatty's Avatar
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    My layman's view is that it isn't particularly racialist, at least not intentionally. Rather, the fact that it draws a mostly "white" audience is incidental and more to do with the fact that goth-mythology is constructed around imagery, themes & literature mostly associated with "European" culture.

    There is a reasonable amount of enthusiasm for goth culture in South American countries such as Brazil or Argentina where many amongst the populations are not necessarily "white". This is not really surprising when one considers that these countries are very much influenced by European culture & tradition.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

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