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Thread: Rhinelanders and Franconians

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    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Rhinelanders and Franconians

    I am curious if anyone can inform me what the principal Germanic and/or Celtic tribes that inhabited the regions of the Rhineland and Franconia were. I've read a few different answers depending on the source, so I hope someone who is knowledgeable about this subject can provide me with some answers.

    If possible, I would also like to know as much as I can about these two groups. For any Germans that are on this forum, what are you personal experiences with people from these regions? What would you say makes them distinct from other Germans? What would you say the average appearance or most common sub-race of these two regions would be? Really any information you can provide will be highly appreciated.

    To be even more specific, I would love to know as much as I can about the people that inhabited and currently inhabit the areas around Bad Dürkheim district in the Rhineland-Pfalz and the area of Unterfranken in Franconia.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I am curious if anyone can inform me what the principal Germanic and/or Celtic tribes that inhabited the regions of the Rhineland and Franconia were.
    Well. As we see from this map we have a good outline of the patchwork of tribes which inhabited the Rhine area in the West.

    When I think Rhineland tribes I think of the
    Celtic: Treverii (cognate of Trier), Eubrones, Triboci, and Nemetes
    German: Ubii, Suebii, Vangiones, and Chatti
    These were of course prevalent in the times of Caesar and the following years, but during the Migration Era onwards, these tribes were probably either assimilated into larger tribes such as the Franks or driven out completely.
    My fathers side of the family hails from the Rhineland, more specifically on the Moselle, just north of Trier.

    As for Franconia, I now next to nothing about specifically. My German teacher in high school was from Bamberg in Franconia though
    She told us that certain men from Bamberg were known as "pregnant men" due to their large beer bellies. So much for relevant information.

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    At the earliest historical period, the territories between the Ardennes and the Rhine were occupied by the Treveri, the Eburones and other Celtic tribes, who, however, were all more or less modified and influenced by their Germanic neighbours. On the right bank of the Rhine, between the Main and the Lahn, were the settlements of the Mattiaci, a branch of the Germanic Chatti, while farther to the north were the Usipetes and Tencteri.

    This is all from Wikipedia, but it's still good historical information.

    Also, Franconia=Franks

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    Senior Member MaximusMagnus's Avatar
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    In the Rea of North Rhine westphallian there were no celtic tribes at the time of Ceaser. They were German Tribes, and Rome encouraged more to move in they depopulated the Guals in the area hoping to use Germans as a bulwark against Germans

    There were Ubii, Batavii and other German tribes that were settled on the Roman side of the rhine. They were eventually part of the sallain Frank Confederation

    Further south you have the Chatti who merged with the Ripurian franks

    Franonia really didn't have any Franks in it. They were conqurerd by the Franks and Frankish Nobles ruled the area. However ethnic Frakish people never really went further south than Cologne.

    That area of Franconia also the Franch an Alscase are of the some German stock was made up of Alamanni, Thurngi and Swabians. Funny story about some of the tribes that made up the German tribes there--apparently they had large manhoods/Phalus and the Romans would cut it of the dead Germans in that area abd take them back as war prizes

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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusMagnus View Post
    Franonia really didn't have any Franks in it. They were conqurerd by the Franks and Frankish Nobles ruled the area. However ethnic Frakish people never really went further south than Cologne. That area of Franconia also the Franch an Alscase are of the some German stock was made up of Alamanni, Thurngi and Swabians.
    That's not quite correct.
    There are various settlements of Franks, and also Thuringians who followed them, in southern Germany.
    The dialect boundary between Franks and Alamanni gradually shifted from what is nowadays the northern border of Baden-Württemberg to the mid of it. The same happened in the Bajuwaric area.
    Without a major Frankish population influx, only via a mere displacement of the native nobility, such a shift wouldn’t have been possible.

    That doesn’t mean the old population was deported but rather that Frankish families founded new settlements in the relatively sparsely settled land.

    Suffixes like –heim, -hausen, -rod and –weiler are markers of the Frankish colonization in southern Germany.
    Compare it with the distribution of –ingen and –ing, in southern Germany they are almost exclusively of Alamannic respectively Bajuwaric origin.

    At the bottom of this site there’s a box where you can select the various suffixes and have a look at their distribution:
    http://www.m-krausse.de/projects/citycluster/index.html
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    Senior Member MaximusMagnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    That's not quite correct.
    There are various settlements of Franks, and also Thuringians who followed them, in southern Germany.
    The dialect boundary between Franks and Alamanni gradually shifted from what is nowadays the northern border of Baden-Württemberg to the mid of it. The same happened in the Bajuwaric area.
    Without a major Frankish population influx, only via a mere displacement of the native nobility, such a shift wouldn’t have been possible.

    That doesn’t mean the old population was deported but rather that Frankish families founded new settlements in the relatively sparsely settled land.

    Suffixes like –heim, -hausen, -rod and –weiler are markers of the Frankish colonization in southern Germany.
    Compare it with the distribution of –ingen and –ing, in southern Germany they are almost exclusively of Alamannic respectively Bajuwaric origin.

    At the bottom of this site there’s a box where you can select the various suffixes and have a look at their distribution:
    http://www.m-krausse.de/projects/citycluster/index.html
    There were for sure thrungians in the area. From what I read only the Frankish Nobility settled in that area. For instance Frankfurt was a Fort built to administer the area. South of the lands of the Chatti, The Franks were content to establish a ruling class and force tribute. Did some families move in maybe, but they were few and most of them were nobility or warrior class that were give lands to hold

    The name, Franconian, an English adjective made into a noun, comes from the official Latin name of an area (and later Duchy) in the Middle Ages known as Franconia (German Franken). If being in the territory of the original Franci is a criterion of being Frankish, it was not originally Frankish, but Alemannic, as the large Roman base at Mainz, near the confluence of the Main and the Rhine, kept the Franci and the Suebi, core tribe of the Alemanni, apart. When the Romans withdrew, the fort became a major base of the Ripuarian Franks, who promptly moved up the Main, founded Frankfurt ("the ford of the Franks"), established a government over the Suebi between the Rhine and the Danube, and proceeded to assimilate them to all things Frankish.


    Franks weren't a tribe--They were a confederation of tribes. They were a political entity

    I like a lot of people say "Franks" out of convience.

    The Fransk are further divided into sallians (Sea Franks) Which your Ubii, Batavi, Cherusci, Latter the Belgae (who were german not Celt, I know that is a debate, but they were a Germanic tribe with Celt influences) Who settled in the lower Rhineland, the Netherlands

    Then you have your Ripurain Franks (Chatti, Some Thurungi) Settled around Hesse, Cologne and Bonn

    The name, Franci, applied by the tribes consequently considered Frankish to themselves and their confederacy; i.e., the endonym, was never intended to be an ethnonym.[1] Comprising multiple tribes each with its own ethnonym, it was in origin a socio-political term. To the people who shortly were to counter the invasions of the Franks: the Romans, the Celts, the Suebi, who in the first two instances spoke significantly different languages, the Franks must have seemed to be all alike: they looked the same and had the same language, so that the word was in fact treated as an ethnonym.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    When I think Rhineland tribes I think of the
    Celtic: Treverii (cognate of Trier), Eubrones, Triboci, and Nemetes
    German: Ubii, Suebii, Vangiones, and Chatti
    These were of course prevalent in the times of Caesar and the following years, but during the Migration Era onwards, these tribes were probably either assimilated into larger tribes such as the Franks or driven out completely.
    My fathers side of the family hails from the Rhineland, more specifically on the Moselle, just north of Trier.
    The Belgae Tribes you mention The Eubrones were not celtic according the Caeser and the Romans. For that matter the Belgae weren't celt either, they were a German tribes influenced by Celtic culture, some of the tribes were German, some celt. I posted some info on these tribes. The Romans and Greeks call them German, more modern scholars suggest Celt. More than likley they were German tribes influenced by the Gauls. The trevi seem to be celtic influenced by the Germans

    The Eubrones:

    Julius Caesar says that the Condrusi, Eburones, Caeraesi, Paemani, and Segni were called by the one name of Germani and had settled there some generations ago having come from the other side of the Rhine.[14][23] The Eburones are therefore amongst the so-called Germani cisrhenani 'Germans on this side of the Rhine', i.e. Germanic peoples who lived south and west of the Rhine and may have been distinct from the Belgae. It is clear that the Belgic tribes of Gaul were culturally influenced by both Gaulish and Germanic neighbours, but the details, for example which languages they spoke, remains uncertain.

    The Triboci:

    The Triboci were in the army of the Germanic king Ariovistus in the great battle in which Julius Caesar defeated him; and though Caesar does not say directly that they were Germans, his narrative shows that he considered them to be Germans.[4] In another passage Caesar places the Triboci on the Rhine between the Mediomatrici and the Treviri, and he means to place them on the left or Gallic side of the Rhine.[5] Strabo, after mentioning the Sequani and Mediomatrici as extending to the Rhine, says, “Among them a German people has settled, the Tribocchi, who have passed over from their native land.”[6] Pliny and Tacitus say that the Tribocci are Germans.[7][8] The true conclusion from Caesar is that he supposed the Tribocci to be settled in Gallia before 58 BCE.

    The Nemetes

    The Nemetes (Ancient Greek: Νεμῆται; German: Nemeter), by modern authors sometimes improperly[citation needed] called Nemeti,[1][2] were an ancient Germanic tribe living by the Rhine between the Palatinate and Lake Constance where Ariovistus had led them, the Suebi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the 1st century BC. The Roman name for Speyer, Noviomagus Nemetum, reflects this city's status as the Nemetes' tribal capital. According to Tacitus, they were "unquestionably Germanic".[3] The name of the tribe, however, is Celtic as the name of its main town Noviomagus meaning noviios 'new' and magos 'plain', 'market' (cf. Old Irish mag 'plain') ,[4] as are those of a number of gods worshipped in their territory, including Nemetona, who is thought to have been their eponymous deity.[5] Both of these names derive from the Celtic root nemeto-, referring to sacred spaces

    Trevi/Treverii: provided Caesar with his best cavalry. After Caesar's successful campaigns in Gaul, the Treveri were forcefully integrated into the Roman Empire, thereby losing not only their political independence but their cultural identity as well. Following the failure of the uprising of 54/53 B.C. the leading families of the Treveri are reported to have crossed the Rhine, to settle among the Germanic tribes. It is interesting to note, on the issue of whether the Treverii were celtic or germanic, that there has been no ceramic evidence to point to a germanic relation. [Source: The Prehistory of Germanic Europe by Herbert Schutz (1983)]. At the time of Caesar the Treveri lived in Gallia Belgica, with the Eburones and Aduatuci to their north, and the Mediomatrici to their south. [Source: "The World of the Celts" by Simon James (1993), map page 119]

    The Trevi founding myth states they came from assyria but the people claim Germanic ancestory.

    Belgae: the current view is that the Belgae were a cross between celtic and germanic tribes, tall with blond hair. Julius Caesar wrote that the Belgae differed from the Gauls and other tribes such as the Aquitani in language, customs and laws even though they lived in the northern part of what Caesar called Gaul. Caesar also states "the greater part of the Belgae were sprung, from the Germans". The Belgae fought the Romans in the Gallic Wars (58 BC-51 BC). One of the belgic tribes, the Aduatuci, was virtually wiped out. Also see J.A. MacCulloch's book, "The Religion of the Ancient Celts" (1st ed. 1911), who states that the Belgae were Germanic, based on the analysis of the skulls found in the Belgicae burials of Grenelle, Sclaigneaux and Borreby, France.
    Gallia Belgica, a part of ancient Roman Gaul, had many different tribes: Caleti, Velocasses, Morini, Atrebates, Menapi, Morini, Nervi, Bellovaci, Remi, Eburoni, Veromandui, Aduatuci, Condrusi, the Eburones, the Caeraesi, the Paemani. The Belgae were probably a federation of these various tribes, as Caesar discussed. [Note from Kevin: Hawkes 1968 Cunliffe 1988 and 1991 seem to think that the Belgae/Belgii were a celtic tribe from nothern Gaul who migrated to central southern England (Hampshire and West Sussex) between 100 and 80 B.C.]. The Belgae spoke another dialect of Celtic mixed with German. [Source: From: J. B. Greenough, Benjamin L. D'Ooge, M. Grant Daniell, Commentary on Caesar's Gallic War]. "The Belgae themselves believed that their ancestors had crossed the Rhine into Gaul from the east and this tradition may reflect a prehistoric migration, perhaps in the second century BCE." [Source: Ancestors: The Origins of the People and Countries of Europe by Martin Berg and Miles Litvinoff (Eurobook 1992)]
    The ancestors of the Belgae are unknown at this time, although the Belgae considered themselves descended from the Germani. [Source: The Prehistory of Germanic Europe by Herbert Schutz (1983), p. 338]. The Greek writer Strabo noted the resemblance between the Belgae and the Germani. The tribal names of some of the Belgae have continued in their regional centers; thus the Remi are remembered in Reims, the Suessiones in Soissons, the Belovaci in Beauvais, the Ambioni in Amiens, and so forth. [Source: The Prehistory of Germanic Europe by Herbert Schutz (1983), p. 338].

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusMagnus View Post
    snip
    I know
    I don't copypasta my info from Wikipedia.

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    Senior Member MaximusMagnus's Avatar
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    There is nothing wrong with WP if you check the source it comes from and the source is valid. BTW not all of it came from WP

    Some other tidbits (all from memory to make you happy Elessar ) about some the Rhinish and Franconian Tribes. They were some BMF's


    First the Trevi- The are an interesting bunch, they use Gaulish names but claim German descent. When the Romans pressed them they moved across the Rhine and Hung out with the Germans. They were considered some of the best Horsemen in Europe. (Only the Ubii were there equal) Later they made up Julius Ceasers Calvary and his Trevi Auxilla were the first of his soldiers to enter Rome (along with some Roman Equities) after the senate and PMagnus left the city.


    The Ubii were the elite horsemen of the Frankish tribes. They were also used by Romans later. A common expression in the roman world when some one was a good horsemen is that there mom must of been Ubiian. They later become the precursor of the Frankish Knight (the FK was modeled after them)

    The Chatti were unique among the German tribes that they would fight defensive battles and carry provisions to war. They could therefore hold ground and not have to attack or could choose their time to attack. They also used Javelins and would carry 4 to 5 on the back of each soldier.

    The Sueibi/Swabians of the Allamani. Were said to posses rather large manhoods, The Romans after a battle would often cut them off and preserve them to show as war trophies and to sell them for use in virility potions and such. Also they were known for using two handed swords, this continued on to the middle ages and Swabian swordsman were always in high demand in Europe, one because they were uniquely tall, two because they were freaking good. It was said the rode small broad horses into battle sometimes, some thought it looked funny this giants on small horses, however it was just the right ht to lop off heads and they could still use both hands on the sword. Swabian Calvary were used by the Normans when they invaded and took over Sicily

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusMagnus View Post
    There were for sure thrungians in the area. From what I read only the Frankish Nobility settled in that area. For instance Frankfurt was a Fort built to administer the area. South of the lands of the Chatti, The Franks were content to establish a ruling class and force tribute. Did some families move in maybe, but they were few and most of them were nobility or warrior class that were give lands to hold

    The name, Franconian, an English adjective made into a noun, comes from the official Latin name of an area (and later Duchy) in the Middle Ages known as Franconia (German Franken). If being in the territory of the original Franci is a criterion of being Frankish, it was not originally Frankish, but Alemannic, as the large Roman base at Mainz, near the confluence of the Main and the Rhine, kept the Franci and the Suebi, core tribe of the Alemanni, apart. When the Romans withdrew, the fort became a major base of the Ripuarian Franks, who promptly moved up the Main, founded Frankfurt ("the ford of the Franks"), established a government over the Suebi between the Rhine and the Danube, and proceeded to assimilate them to all things Frankish.


    Franks weren't a tribe--They were a confederation of tribes. They were a political entity

    I like a lot of people say "Franks" out of convience.

    The Fransk are further divided into sallians (Sea Franks) Which your Ubii, Batavi, Cherusci, Latter the Belgae (who were german not Celt, I know that is a debate, but they were a Germanic tribe with Celt influences) Who settled in the lower Rhineland, the Netherlands

    Then you have your Ripurain Franks (Chatti, Some Thurungi) Settled around Hesse, Cologne and Bonn

    The name, Franci, applied by the tribes consequently considered Frankish to themselves and their confederacy; i.e., the endonym, was never intended to be an ethnonym.[1] Comprising multiple tribes each with its own ethnonym, it was in origin a socio-political term. To the people who shortly were to counter the invasions of the Franks: the Romans, the Celts, the Suebi, who in the first two instances spoke significantly different languages, the Franks must have seemed to be all alike: they looked the same and had the same language, so that the word was in fact treated as an ethnonym.
    There was indeed a Frankish colonization of southern Germany, particularly in northwestern Baden-Wurttemberg (otherwise known as the Kraichgau). As the Bructeri were probably the Frankish tribe setteld on the Middle Rhine since (I believe) the 4th century, it's a good bet that that most of the settlers were of this particular tribe. With Clovis' invasion, archeologists have found that Alemannic cemeteries had been abandoned by the 5th century, and cemeteries bearing Frankish artifacts replaced them. As well, Alemannic hill forts and villages had been burned to the ground, and treasures buried by Alemannic nobles were only rediscovered by archeologists in modern times - more proof that the Franks had replaced the former inhabitants. A very good source for Frankish colonization of southwest Germany can be found in Franks And Alamanni In The Merovingian Period: An Ethnographic Perspective. The Frankish colonization of Bavarian and Thuringian Franconia happened only a few decades later, with the conquest of the Thriringian kingdom.
    My Dad's people had immigrated to the Black Sea area of the Russian Empire, from the Kraichgau back in the Napoleonic era. My Dad, who had been something of the family historian, who had pretty much been force fed family history by his grandmothers, had recounted to me how our ancestors had regarded themselves as something different from their Swabian neighbors to the south, and would regularly tell Swabian jokes the same way that Americans used to tell Polish jokes. Even their dialect differed from that of the Swabians. Today, I suspect, because the Kraichgau has been a part of Baden-Wurttemberg for so long, the Frankish descendants there more and more are probably forgetting their own historical identity. As well, as "tribal" distinctions break down with Swabian speakers migrating into the north of the state, and Franconian speakers moving into the south, a Swabian identity has become associated the most with Baden-Wurttemberg.

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    Senior Member MaximusMagnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraichgaufrank View Post
    There was indeed a Frankish colonization of southern Germany, particularly in northwestern Baden-Wurttemberg (otherwise known as the Kraichgau). As the Bructeri were probably the Frankish tribe setteld on the Middle Rhine since (I believe) the 4th century, it's a good bet that that most of the settlers were of this particular tribe. With Clovis' invasion, archeologists have found that Alemannic cemeteries had been abandoned by the 5th century, and cemeteries bearing Frankish artifacts replaced them. As well, Alemannic hill forts and villages had been burned to the ground, and treasures buried by Alemannic nobles were only rediscovered by archeologists in modern times - more proof that the Franks had replaced the former inhabitants. A very good source for Frankish colonization of southwest Germany can be found in Franks And Alamanni In The Merovingian Period: An Ethnographic Perspective. The Frankish colonization of Bavarian and Thuringian Franconia happened only a few decades later, with the conquest of the Thriringian kingdom.
    My Dad's people had immigrated to the Black Sea area of the Russian Empire, from the Kraichgau back in the Napoleonic era. My Dad, who had been something of the family historian, who had pretty much been force fed family history by his grandmothers, had recounted to me how our ancestors had regarded themselves as something different from their Swabian neighbors to the south, and would regularly tell Swabian jokes the same way that Americans used to tell Polish jokes. Even their dialect differed from that of the Swabians. Today, I suspect, because the Kraichgau has been a part of Baden-Wurttemberg for so long, the Frankish descendants there more and more are probably forgetting their own historical identity. As well, as "tribal" distinctions break down with Swabian speakers migrating into the north of the state, and Franconian speakers moving into the south, a Swabian identity has become associated the most with Baden-Wurttemberg.
    I agree there was Frankish settlements--But to what extent it was actually large in numbers and to what extent it was simply forced adherence to Frankish culture and customs would be the question.
    Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
    Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
    Where is the hand on the harp-string, and the red fire glowing?
    They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
    The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.

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