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Thread: Link Between Alpinism and Ancient Dwarves?

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    Link Between Alpinism and Ancient Dwarves?

    In Germanic mythology, a dwarf (Old English dweorg, Old Norse dvergr, Old High German zwerc and gitwerc) is a being that dwells in mountains and in the earth, and is associated with wisdom, smithing, mining, and crafting. Dwarfs are also sometimes described as short and ugly, although some scholars have questioned whether this is a later development stemming from comical portrayals of the beings.
    Wikipedia

    I have for a while thought about the possible link between Alpinism and Dwarves in ancient Mythology. I know Alpinism is the result of a process rather than being a distinct race in itself. But could it perhaps be possible that such a pure Alpinid community or communities have existed in history that it gave rise to the ancient tales of dwarves? I could not help but note the similarities between the purist forms of Alpinism and Dwarfism- both are short, stoutly built and have dark curly hair with rough features. I mean not to tread on any toes or to present this as a academic discussion, but I would be glad if members could give their opinions.

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    well, dwarfs strickes me as alpine+dinaric influence, having stocky build, short stature but strong man features, a dinaric nose and maybe planoccipital.

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    Alpine race is one of "shortest" in Europe. But still not that short for being dwarf i think.

    Average height of troops born in the mid-nineteenth century, by country or place.
    Country Height
    Australia 1.72 m (5 ft 7 3⁄4 in)[107]
    England 1.72 m (5 ft 7 3⁄4 in)
    U.S. 1.71 m (5 ft 7 1⁄4 in)
    Norway 1.69 m (5 ft 6 1⁄2 in)
    Ireland 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
    Scotland 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
    Sweden 1.68 m (5 ft 6 1⁄4 in)
    Bohemia 1.67 m (5 ft 5 3⁄4 in)
    Lower Austria 1.67 m (5 ft 5 3⁄4 in)
    Moravia 1.66 m (5 ft 5 1⁄4 in)
    France 1.65 m (5 ft 5 in)
    Wales 1.65 m (5 ft 5 in)
    Germany 1.64 m (5 ft 4 1⁄2 in)
    Netherlands 1.64 m (5 ft 4 1⁄2 in)
    Spain 1.62 m (5 ft 3 3⁄4 in)
    Italy 1.61 m (5 ft 3 1⁄2 in)

    Netherlands 181,0 5’11.3″ 16,318,199
    Iceland 179,8 5’10.8″ 319,355
    Norway 179,7 5’10.7″ 4,737,171
    Sweden 179,3 5’10.6″ 8,986,400
    Denmark 178,8 5’10.4″ 5,413,392
    Finland 178,4 5’10.2″ 5,214,512
    Czech Republic 178,3 5’10.2″ 10,246,178
    Slovenia 178,1 5’10.1″ 2,007,711
    Luxembourg 178,0 5’10.1″ 486,006
    Croatia 177,6 5’9.9″ 4,496,869
    Germany 177,4 5’9.8″ 82,424,609
    Estonia 177,1 5’9.7″ 1,307,605
    Austria 177,0 5’9.7″ 8,174,762
    Belgium 176,6 5’9.5″ 10,348,276
    Serbia 176,5 5’9.5″ 10,159,046
    Switzerland 176,5 5’9.5″ 7,450,867
    United States 176,4 5’9.4″ 293,027,571
    Australia 176,3 5’9.4″ 19,913,144
    Poland 176,0 5’9.3″ 38,626,349
    Greece 175,7 5’9.2″ 10,647,529
    New Zealand 175,5 5’9.1″ 3,993,817
    United Kingdom 175,4 5’9.1″ 60,270,708
    Hungary 175,3 5’9″ 10,106,017
    Ukraine 175,0 5’8.9″ 47,732,079
    Ireland 175,0 5’8.9″ 3,969,558
    Russia 175,0 5’8.9″ 143,782,338
    Israel 175,0 5’8.9″ 7,112,359
    Lithuania 175,0 5’8.9″ 3,565,205
    Canada 174,3 5’8.6″ 32,507,874
    Lebanon 174,2 5’8.6″ 3,777,218
    Turkey 174,1 5’8.5″ 68,893,918
    France 174,1 5’8.5″ 60,424,213
    Uzbekistan 173,4 5’8.3″ 26,410,416
    Italy 173,2 5’8.2″ 58,057,477
    Senegal 173,0 5’8.1″ 10,852,147
    Jamaica 172,8 5’8″ 2,804,332
    Mali 172,5 5’7.9″ 12,324,029
    Spain 172,0 5’7.7″ 40,280,780
    Romania 172,0 5’7.7″ 22,355,551
    Azerbaijan 172,0 5’7.7″ 8,177,717
    Uruguay 171,8 5’7.6″ 3,399,237
    Argentina 171,3 5’7.4″ 39,144,753
    South Korea 171,0 5’7.3″ 48,598,175
    Syria 171,0 5’7.3″ 18,016,874
    Morocco 170,7 5’7.2″ 32,209,101
    Iran 170,6 5’7.2″ 67,503,205
    Portugal 170,5 5’7.1″ 10,524,145
    Côte d’Ivoire 170,4 5’7.1″ 18,373,060
    Egypt 170,3 5’7″ 76,117,421
    Tunisia 170,3 5’7″ 9,974,722
    Algeria 170,2 5’7″ 32,129,324
    South Africa 170,0 5’6.9″ 42,718,530
    Cameroon 170,0 5’6.9″ 16,063,678
    Gambia 170,0 5’6.9″ 1,735,464
    Ghana 169,8 5’6.9″ 23,382,848
    Brazil 169,5 5’6.7″ 184,101,109
    Colombia 169,5 5’6.7″ 42,310,775
    Taiwan 169,3 5’6.7″ 22,920,946
    Chile 169,2 5’6.6″ 15,823,957
    Venezuela 169,0 5’6.5″ 23,542,649
    Paraguay 169,0 5’6.5″ 6,191,368
    Japan 168,6 5’6.4″ 127,333,002
    Hong Kong 168,5 5’6.3″ 7,210,505
    China 168,3 5’6.3″ 1,298,847,624
    Mexico 167,5 5’5.9″ 104,959,594
    Pakistan 167,0 5’5.7″ 159,196,336
    Singapore 166,6 5’5.6″ 4,353,893
    Thailand 166,4 5’5.5″ 64,865,523
    Mongolia 166,4 5’5.5″ 2,751,314
    Malaysia 166,0 5’5.4″ 23,522,482
    Sri Lanka 166,0 5’5.4″ 20,064,776
    Malawi 166,0 5’5.4″ 13,931,831
    Bahrain 165,6 5’5.2″ 718,306
    Iraq 165,4 5’5.1″ 25,374,691
    Nigeria 165,0 5’5″ 138,283,240
    Peru 164,3 5’4.7″ 27,544,305
    North Korea 163,8 5’4.5″ 22,697,553
    India 162,3 5’3.9″ 1,065,070,607
    Vietnam 162,1 5’3.8″ 82,689,518
    Philippines 162,0 5’3.8″ 86,241,697
    Indonesia 161,5 5’3.6″ 238,452,952
    Cambodia 160,3 5’3.1″ 13,363,421

    I think that average Alpinids is 10cm shorter then average Nordics

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    I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?
    I don't think Alpinid is common anywhere on the British Isles, at least nowadays. 5'5" would be short even for today's Alpinids though.

    The short stature in Wales probably comes rather from the Mediterranean race which is supposed to be common there. Are these people slender, long-faced and rather dark?
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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    I have alot of male Welsh friends who are about the 5'5, 5'6 mark. Is Alpinid very common here?
    No, not really. As one might guess, the Alpine racial type is most common in Central Europe. A short, dark Welsh person is more likely to be an Atlanto-Mediterranean.

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    That must be it then, they do look like de-pigmented Spaniards alot of the time. I find the same with the Irish too. Must be the Iberian Celt look.

    Mind you there are quite alot of very large males here 6'+ who share the exact same facial structures and colouring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    Must be the Iberian Celt look.
    "Iberian Celt" is a cultural term and shouldn't be used in any racial sense. The word you are looking for would probably be "Atlantid", a racial type that is native to the western extremes of Europe.

    A short, slender, black-haired Welshman is most likely an Atlanto-Mediterranean, as has been said before. This type is spread around Southwestern Europe, and also exists in Ireland. The early English racialists, when studying Irish people, generally classified them into two groups; the redheads and blondes with coarse features (Brünn), and the darker ones with slender features (Atlanto-Med). The latter were the source of the "Black Irish" legend, which connected them to Iberia.

    (The Irish are not the only ones who have this story. I personally know a Norwegian woman with smooth dark hair, almost black. She said her family has retained that pale-skinned, raven-haired look over many generations, and they have an old family legend that they descend from a Spanish sea captain who was shipwrecked one the Norwegian coast. It's probably not true, but it just goes to show how widespread that legend is among North Europeans with darker hair.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    A short, slender, black-haired Welshman is most likely an Atlanto-Mediterranean, as has been said before. This type is spread around Southwestern Europe, and also exists in Ireland. The early English racialists, when studying Irish people, generally classified them into two groups; the redheads and blondes with coarse features (Brünn), and the darker ones with slender features (Atlanto-Med).
    Well, if the individual in question is short it's more likely a member of the (small) Mediterranean race, since Atlanto-Mediteranids are supposed to be tall and robust.

    I also don't think the terms Brünn or Atlanto-Mediteranid existed back then and later most of the Irish were classified as either Brünn or Keltic Nordid, rather than AM.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Well, if the individual in question is short it's more likely a member of the (small) Mediterranean race, since Atlanto-Mediteranids are supposed to be tall and robust.
    Atlanto-Mediterraneans come in all sizes. The differences between "Atlanto-Med" and "East-Med" have more to do with facial features than with height. (Although the latter is often shorter and slimmer).

    I also don't think the terms Brünn or Atlanto-Mediteranid existed back then and later most of the Irish were classified as either Brünn or Keltic Nordid, rather than AM.
    I don't think any of the above terms existed back then, but that is beside the point I was making. This was at the dawn of anthropology, remember. I merely used the terms "Brünn" and "Atlanto-Med" as a shorthand for the two racial categories that Irish people were divided into, so the reader would get a visual cue.

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