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Thread: The Concept of Race Soul

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrian
    So I understand Evola to have considered and given a lot of importance to the "material" ramifications of racial science. I don't see it being neglected in his writings.
    I do not think that Evola "neglected" race, it is rather that he placed Spirit first and [bodily] race second: i.e., it is a question of 'Order';

    "Race is secondary, spirit & tradition the primary factor, because, in a metaphysical sense, race dwells in the spirit before being expressed in the blood".
    [Evola 1937, 'Western Rebirth Out of the Primordial Aryan Spirit', quoted by Hansen in his introduction to Evola's Men Amongst the Ruins]

    I suppose I am suggesting, contra evola, a racialist version of the Existentialist dictum, 'existence precedes essence'; viz., - racial existence precedes spiritual essence.

    Also, modern multi-cultural societies have shown in recent times, I think, that it is primarily a matter of blood. See how many Negroes in the West, being educated and inculcated in the Western spirit, still express their [non-Western] blood, and are fundamentally indistinguishable from their African cousins even though they have never set foot in Africa.

    So how does "race dwell in the spirit before being expressed in the blood"?
    This is the [sequential] paradox that Evolians need to explain.

    Also it is common knowledge that Evola frequently criticised Gobineau, Chamberlain & Rosenberg's views on race for being 'too biological'.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    it is a question of 'Order';

    "Race is secondary, spirit & tradition the primary factor, because, in a metaphysical sense, race dwells in the spirit before being expressed in the blood".
    [Evola 1937, 'Western Rebirth Out of the Primordial Aryan Spirit', quoted by Hansen in his introduction to Evola's Men Amongst the Ruins]
    First off, I should say I am not an Evolian. But when I read him, I get the feeling there's some mis-match of terms that have to be intuited.

    "spirit (n.) c.1250, "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from O.Fr. espirit, from L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath," related to spirare "to breathe," from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cf. O.C.S. pisto "to play on the flute").
    spirit (v.)
    1599, "to make more active or energetic" (of blood, alcohol, etc.)"

    When he says, Race dwells in the Spirit before being expressed in the Blood, I think he refers to the "active or energetic" part of the Blood. I think to Evola, Spirit = Active or Potent part of the Blood, and
    Blood = Latent Sacred - 1459, from L. latentem (nom. latens), prp. of latere "to lie hidden," from PIE *laidh-, from base *la- "to be hidden" (cf. Gk. lethe "forgetfulness, oblivion," O.C.S. lajati "to lie in wait for").

    I think to him the Spirit was very much physical - though for common parlance he speaks of the 'Metaphysical' Tradition.

    Also it is common knowledge that Evola frequently criticised Gobineau, Chamberlain & Rosenberg's views on race for being 'too biological'.
    No, I think he cautions those for being "only biological".

    Its my feeling that its not that he gives the Body/Biological the backseat, but more like saying the Spirit must guard the Body and the Blood - which implies to me, he valued the Biological as the real treasure.

    You can approach 0 from the postive 3,2,1,0 or from the negative -3,-2,-1,0 - 0 standing for Sovereignity.

    Evola just takes the latter Indirect approach with his strong influences from Buddhism I think.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrian
    First off, I should say I am not an Evolian. But when I read him, I get the feeling there's some mis-match of terms that have to be intuited...
    When Evola says, Race dwells in the Spirit before being expressed in the Blood, I think he refers to the "active or energetic" part of the Blood.
    Utopian claimed that what we were calling "soul" should have been called "spirit" in Evolian terms, hence my use of the term 'spirit' when tackling Evolian effusions in this context.

    Even when you say that "race dwells in the spirit before being expressed in the 'active & energetic part of the blood'", this still injects a difficulty.
    Is the 'non-active and non-energetic part of the blood' then also non-racial?

    Is 'race' therefore just a synonym for 'spiritual blood' [i.e., defined as 'blood that is active and energetic'], regardless of type?

    Is there a racial category which covers all human beings [regardless of phenotype] and refers only to those who have this active & energetic blood?

    This seems to me to be a mismatch between the notion of a spiritual type and a racial type. I would almost say that there is an attempt [unsuccessful], to 'shoe-horn', bed-of-procrustes' like, a racial concept into a spiritual one.

    I think to him the Spirit was very much physical - though for common parlance he speaks of the 'Metaphysical' Tradition.
    It may have been "physical", but can it really be called "racial"?
    Surely the implication is that his spiritual caste can range across all 'blood types' as long as they be 'energetic and active'.

    No, I think he cautions those [such as Rosenberg et al] for being "only biological".
    But they are clearly not "only biological" [indeed, this is ironic as modern biologists would say that they were anything but biological].
    It was Rosenberg's notion of the Race-Soul which prompted this thread.

    Its my feeling that its not that Evola gives the Body/Biological the backseat, but more like saying the Spirit must guard the Body and the Blood - which implies to me, he valued the Biological as the real treasure ....
    ... with his strong influences from Buddhism.
    What is the attitude of Buddhism towards the caste system?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  4. #104
    Senior Member Utopian's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Utopian claimed that what we were calling "soul" should have been called "spirit" in Evolian terms, hence my use of the term 'spirit' when tackling Evolian effusions in this context.
    Actually, in this sense, what you were referring to as the spirit and the soul was mostly the body. You really made little if any distinction between the spirit, soul, and body, and made no mention of logos. To you, the spirit is the body is the soul is the logos.
    adaequatio rei et intellectus

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian
    Actually, in this sense, what you were referring to as the spirit and the soul was mostly the body. You really made little if any distinction between the spirit, soul, and body, and made no mention of logos. To you, the spirit is the body is the soul is the logos.
    The concepts 'spirit' & 'soul' both derive from our consciousness of the Body.
    They are expressions of our thinking & feeling about birth, life & death.

    "Spirit: The vital principle or animating force within living beings."
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spirit

    "Soul: The animating & vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, & emotion & often conceived as an immaterial entity".
    http://dictionary.refernce.com/browse/soul

    Particular races have their own particular and unique conceptions of the spirit and of the soul which are expressions of those particular and unique racial bodies.

    There is a Germanic Spirit and a Germanic Race-Soul, for example.

    However, those two things are the creation of Germanics - not the other way around.
    However, because they behave like a feed-back loop [so the Germanic Racial Spirit and Race Soul thereby increase Germanness, for example, just as a boom in German births increases the number of Germans], it is sometimes assumed [wrongly, in my opinion] that Germanness was first created by the Spirit & Soul.

    This kind of discourse is a logos; a racial-logos.

    Logos: The principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logos
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Utopian's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    The concepts 'spirit' & 'soul' both derive from our consciousness of the Body.
    They are expressions of our thinking & feeling about birth, life & death.
    I said in the original Hermetic/Traditional/Evolian sense...not the counterfeit modern sense which tries to smash and transform "Magico-Religious" concepts into science, psychology and materialism. That is why outside of the initiatic sense these terms are rendered meaningless and nonsensical. The spirit and soul in the traditional, original and Hermetic (including Buddhist) meanings are not the consciousness or emotion, etc. These concepts of spirit and soul and logos are NOT the product of modern thinking, nor are they "just anything."
    adaequatio rei et intellectus

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian
    I said in the original Hermetic/Traditional/Evolian sense...not the counterfeit modern sense which tries to smash and transform "Magico-Religious" concepts into science, psychology and materialism. That is why outside of the initiatic sense these terms are rendered meaningless and nonsensical. The spirit and soul in the traditional, original and Hermetic (including Buddhist) meanings are not the consciousness or emotion, etc. These concepts of spirit and soul and logos are NOT the product of modern thinking, nor are they "just anything."
    I didn't say that they were "just anything"; nor did I say that they were the result of "modern thinking"; I am saying that when it comes to a concept such as the "Race-Soul", Race is primary - not 'secondary' as Evola saith.

    Just because this position of mine doesn't tally with your "Hermetic" [and supposedly "original" & "traditional"] outlook doesn't necessarily make it "counterfeit modern" [which is just name-calling, after all].

    I am suggesting that my position is informed by a particular tradition which differs from the Hermetic [I know that you claim that there is 'only one tradition', and that is the 'Hermetic' - but then don't all dogmatists say that?].
    Not only that, this tradition of mine is far more "original" & "traditional" to Europeans than is imported 'Hermeticism'!

    My tradition is that of the Northern Tradition;

    "The words Northern Tradition describe the basic aspects of natural spirituality indigenous to the lands of Northern Europe.
    The Northern Tradition is a sacred world-view native to that part of Europe generally north of the Alps.
    It is distinct & almost completely separate from the spiritual system known in Occultism as the Western Tradition.
    The Western Tradition has the precise meaning of a collection of magical practices influenced in the main by the mythology & beliefs of the Middle East ...
    "
    [Nigel Pennick, Runic Astrology]

    Such as Hermeticism;
    "Nominally Egyptian ... the Hermetic elixir was composed of ingredients from all the great Traditions active in Alexandria [including] ... Egyptian religion ... Alexandrian Judaism ..." etc.,
    http://www.meta-religion.com/Esoteri...ermeticism.htm

    I emphasise this as we are discussing the notion of a Race-Soul.
    The Northern Tradition expresses the ancient Northern Race-Soul, and that Race-Soul, only.

    "As a nature-based spiritual path, the Northern Tradition is expressed in the interaction between the inward experiences of people, & their exterior experiences of the climate & landscape ...
    The Northern Tradition is a holistic system, integrated with reality ...
    Had the ancient ways been retained, & further refined, then many of the world's present ills would've been avoided ... before the perceived split between the human and the natural ...
    In this schism between humans and nature, we have been separated from the animals, which still experience reality in this unbroken manner.
    We have lost this spontaneity of life ...
    "
    [ib.,]

    In this outlook there is no separation of Soul & Body; and neither is there a denigration of the Body.
    It is but a return to the ancient wayes of the North.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Even when you say that "race dwells in the spirit before being expressed in the 'active & energetic part of the blood'", this still injects a difficulty. Is the 'non-active and non-energetic part of the blood' then also non-racial?
    Is 'race' therefore just a synonym for 'spiritual blood' [i.e., defined as 'blood that is active and energetic'], regardless of type?
    Is there a racial category which covers all human beings [regardless of phenotype] and refers only to those who have this active & energetic blood?

    It may have been "physical", but can it really be called "racial"?
    Surely the implication is that his spiritual caste can range across all 'blood types' as long as they be 'energetic and active'.
    The following answers all of the important questions you raise. The original page is in French, and this is an auto-translated version:


    From Evola's (Indirizzi per una educazione razziale) 'Elements for a Racial Education',



    Part 5: "Race of the body, race of the heart":


    "Which are then the reports/ratios which remain between the national idea and the racial idea?

    Where resides the dominating element: in the nation or the race? If delicate that it is, this problem must be tackled, because if on the matter, our position came to miss clearness, it would be impossible to penetrate the direction and the cogency of all the practical and "operational" aspects of racism, and in particular of selective racism. Just like the people, the nations are syntheses. One can concede that the elements which appear in such a synthesis are not only racial when one conceives the race like a purely ethnic and anthropo-biological entity. But this design is not ours. For us, the race is an entity which appears as well in the body in the spirit. The various forms of the culture, art, the religion, ethics, etc, are manifestations of the "race of the heart" and "spirit".

    At present, it is advisable to say some words in connection with the consequences of the interbreeding. Let us raise first of all that, when heterogeneous races mix, the result is not only (or is not always) the denaturation, at their descendants, of the characteristic features specific to the corresponding pure types. In fact, one observes a hybridity much more serious when for its purposes, i.e. a descent at which, to the "race of the body" of a given type do not correspond any more the "race of the heart" nor the "race of the spirit" which, a normal way, should correspond to it and to which, at the origin, it was dependent: a dysharmonie and, often even, an interior tearing necessarily result from this.

    In a crossing, it can happen that, to the descendants, during one or more generations, come to prevail only the characteristics of the one of the two types, at the point to give birth to the illusion that no mixture, that no retrogression or hybridism took place. It is only simple appearance. The "phenogenes", i.e. the hereditary potentialities (including those of the other type), are transmitted and acted at the descendants, but in a latent form; they are, so to speak, "in ambush", owing to the fact that, during a given cycle, only the influence of "phenogenes" suitable prevailed for the first type. But at one time or with another, they will reappear, they will be affirmed in a visible way and will determine a corresponding form. These are the latent characteristics which define "recessive" quality in opposition to the other, known as "dominant".


    A quality remains "dominant" at the time of crossings which remain confined within certain limits: as long as a certain tension remains, a certain presence with oneself, so to speak, race. When this tension decreases, "dominant" quality ceases being such and of the external influences -- that, up to now, this one obliged to remain "recessive", i.e. present only in a latent way -- appear in their turn.

    Once specified these elementary concepts as regards doctrines of the race, one can face the problem of the reports/ratios existing between race and "nation", race and "people". We said that the nations as the people are, today, with rigorously speaking, of the mixed ethnic entities which, in their current form, proceed of various historical vicissitudes. The ones and the others are assemblage points not only of various "races of the body", but also of various "races of the spirit", which constitute the substrate more deeply hidden elements of civilizations and cultural influences varied. The point of view which prevailed at the democratic era was, with regard to the nations, of order historicist and agnostic: the problem of the genesis was avoided and of the formation of the nations by accepting those like "accomplished facts" of a given community and one simply évertuait itself to maintain according to a certain balance the various forces which acted as its centre, often even in a contradictory way.

    With racism and, simultaneously, [ with ] the new concepts of State and nation defined by Fascism, the point of view is very different. The problem of the origins cannot be eluded any more insofar as it is recognized that the political policy cannot be a "system of balance", but the firm direction of the State and nation by an elite, a core representing the most valid element and worthiest compared to any other -- so much so that it is desirable that it is him which gives its print to the whole. At this point in time the problem of the formation of the nations requires that one replace it within a framework quite different from old...

    With the origin of all true national tradition, one sees a relatively pure and homogeneous race -- at least as a dominating race screw-with screw of other races which are subjected to him. It is also noted that during centuries, this original race crossed dramatic vicissitudes and sometimes even tragic; that there were times and civilizations where it lost its strength, where foreign influences ended up forming part of the politico-social units created by it, where the natural laws of the race were ridiculed, where, in the field of cultural and spiritual creations, an interbreeding appeared owing to the fact that elements suitable had been accomodated for other races -- which managed to make so that what had up to that point preserved a character "dominating" did not persist any more but in one choked form, "recessive". In addition, one also notes sporadic resurgences of the original race and tradition, their tendency to be maintained despite everything, to again free or to reaffirm, give place to forms and creations faithful to their own nature.

    It is in accordance with this new way of seeing that must be written and taught all our "national history", not for an abstract knowledge or deads recriminations, but of promoting well decisions of an interior nature and a formation of the will quite precise. This idea should, consequently, be impregnated that, in the compound "nation", existed and exists always a "higher race".

    It is in the various vicissitudes and the various times of the "national stories" that an informed eye will have to be precisely accustomed to recognize the hidden aspects, including on the racial level, to discover the alternation of influences of elements which, of "recessive" become "dominant" (and vice versa) and of which proceed of the periods or of the cycles which are by no means the stages of a process homogeneous and continuous, but of the symptoms and manifestations of one or other of these components which, by crossing, joined during the history.

    From this point of view, the "race" -- as "an eminent race" -- means without any doubt much more than the simple "nation": it is the leading and formative element of the nation and its dominant civilization. And this is perfectly in conformity with the fascistic idea. Fascism -- diverging in that from national-socialisme and exceeding it -- refuses, in fact, to conceive the "nation" apart from the State. For Fascism, it is the State which gives form and conscience to the nation. But the State, in its turn, is not an abstract and impersonal entity: according to the fascistic idea, the State is him also the instrument of a political elite, better elements of the "nation". With racism, one takes a step moreover ahead: this elite is intended to take again the torch of the race and its highest tradition, present in the national compound. And when Mussolini said, in 1923: "Rome is always, like tomorrow and in the centuries to come, the powerful heart of our race; it is the imperishable symbol of our vitality ", it indicated already unambiguous the direction of an inescapable decision: the ideal race of the Italian nation, it is the race of Rome, it is that which rightly we had described as "aryo-Roman".

    Also let us point out what Mussolini said, always in 1923, while addressing itself tothe fascistic elite: "You represent really the wonder of this old woman and marvellous race which, certainly, knew dark moments, but never darkness of the decline. If it appeared per moments eclipsed, it was always to reappear with more clearness still ". All this corresponds very exactly so that, there is little, we exposed in terms of "racism" by evoking the hereditary persistence of the paramount race and the vicissitudes born of the alternation of dominant "and" recessive "forms the" during the development of the "national" stories."



    Part 8: "Race and spirit" :


    "We said that, within the framework of the "totalitarian" design of fascistic racism, the race is not reduced to a simple biological entity. The human being is not only body, it is also heart and spirit. But scientistic anthropology, or started from a design materialist human being, or, while recognizing the reality of principles and with nonmaterial forces at the man, was satisfied nevertheless to pose the problem of the race within the framework of the body.

    Our position, by affirming as the race exists as well in the body as in the spirit, exceeds these two points of view. The race is a major form which appears as much in the body field (race of the body) that in the animico-spiritual field (interior race, race of the spirit). With the complete direction of the word, the purity of race exists when these two demonstrations coincide, i.e. when the race of the body is in conformity with the race of the spirit, or race internal, and ready to serve it as a most adequate body of expression.

    One will not fail to raise the revolutionary aspect from such a point of view. The assertion according to which exists a race of the heart and spirit goes to counter-current of the levelling myth and universalist, including on the cultural and ethical level; it makes bite dust with the rationalist design which affirms the "neutrality" of the values; it finally consists in affirming the principle and the value of the difference, including on the spiritual level. It is all a new methodology which results from this. Previously, opposite a given philosophy, one wondered whether it were "true" or "false"; opposite a given morals, one summoned it to specify the concepts of "good" or "evil". Eh well, from the point of view of racist mentality, all this seems exceeded: this one does not pose the problem of knowing what is the good or the evil, it wonders for which race a given design can be true, for which race a given standard can be valid and "good". One can say of it as many the legal forms, the aesthetic criteria and even the systems of knowledge of nature. A "truth", a value or a criterion which, for a given race, can prove to be valid and salutary, can not be to it whole for another, but lead on the contrary, once accepted by it, with a denaturation and a distortion. Such are the revolutionary consequences in the field of the culture, arts, the thought, of sociology, and which derive from the theory of the races of the heart and the spirit, beyond those of the body -- in other words, to use of the terminology adopted by us in other works, derived from racism "to the second and the third degree", beyond that "with the first degree".


    However, it is advisable to specify: on the one hand, limits from the point of view exposed here and, on the other hand, the distinction which it is necessary to make between race of the heart and race of the spirit. The race of the heart relates to all that is form of character, sensitivity, inclination natural, "style" of action and reaction, attitude opposite its own experiments. Here, we are in the field of psychology and typology, this science of the types which developed in the form of typological racism (or racist typology), discipline to which L.F. Clauss gave the name of psycho-anthropology. From this point of view, the definition of the race is that which we already evoked: "a definite human group not by the fact that it has such or such psychic and body characteristics, but by the style which appears through them".

    One immediately notes the difference which separates the purely psychological design from the racist design, which seeks to go front. What psychology defines and studies, they are certain provisions and certain faculties in abstracto. In their turn, certain racists sought to distribute these provisions among the various races. On its side, racism with the second degree, or psycho-anthropology, as it is called, proceeds in a different way. This one supports that all these provisions, although in a different way, are present in the various races: but, of each one of them, they have a different significance and a "function". Thus it will not support, for example, that a race has like characteristic heroism and another conversely, the mercantile spirit. In all the human races, one finds men having provisions for heroism or the mercantile spirit. But, if these provisions are present in him, the man of a given race will express them in accordance with this race, being thus distinguished from a man of different race which, by carrying on these activities or these provisions, will show a different "style". Thus there are various ways, conditioned by the race interns, to be a hero, a researcher, a merchant, an ascetic, etc. The feeling of the honor, such as it appears, for example, at the Scandinavian man of race, is not the same one as in the "Western" man or the Levantine. One could say of it as much fidelity, and so on.


    All this, therefore, in order to specify the significance of the concept of "race of the heart".

    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/evola6_fr.htm

    Tr. http://66.218.71.231/language/transl...P-tab-web-t411



    This seems to me to be a mismatch between the notion of a spiritual type and a racial type. I would almost say that there is an attempt [unsuccessful], to 'shoe-horn', bed-of-procrustes' like, a racial concept into a spiritual one.
    I am not sure if that's a general remark you are making or an accusation that I am trying to mould-in Evola for something he is not. In any case, like I said, I am not an Evolian, and trying to fit him into something he is not, is not going to benefit me in any way. I was expressing my views of him like I understand him.

    But they are clearly not "only biological" [indeed, this is ironic as modern biologists would say that they were anything but biological].
    It was Rosenberg's notion of the Race-Soul which prompted this thread.
    Yes, I know. I appreciate the excerpts you provided from Rosenberg.

    I was talking of Evola's general view and not at anyone in particular. From the above text, I felt Evola is making for a strong racial case. It appears to me he derides the "only biological" selection procedures because they do not take into account the recessive factor of that same biologism. In other words, he is arguing for a systematic process where under a proper atmosphere and time, the latent traits will gradually assert themselves, and this would be a better framework for a more complete racial assessment. One would come to know by then, which stock has what potency and which has not, and then take progressive measures for both from there.

    From the same work, Part 16;

    In order for these elements of the race of the spirit and soul, a “particular collective spiritual environment will be necessary”. Not because man is formed by his environment rather than by heredity, but because the influence of the environment will favour the manifestation of already existing characteristics.
    Therefore, it is necessary to create an environment “saturated with spiritual forces and heroic vocations” to produce the climate needed by the ‘super-race’ in order to reawaken.

    And to one of your questions, if the blood is not Virile (active/energetic), it does not mean Blood is non-racial, like I said, I think to him, it is something sacred but Latent.

    What is the attitude of Buddhism towards the caste system?
    "Beyond the ancient division into castes, Buddhism affirms another that, deeper and more intimate, mutatis mutandis, is not unlike the one that originally existed between the Aryans, those "twice-born" (dvija) and other beings! on one side stand the Ariya and the "noble sons moved by confidence," to whom the Doctrine of Awakening is accessible; on the other, "the common men, without understanding for what is saintly, remote from the saintly doctrine, not accessible to the saintly doctrine; without understanding for what is noble, remote from the doctrine of the noble ones, not accessible by the doctrine of the noble ones." If, on the one hand, as rivers "when they reach the ocean lose their former names and are reckoned only as ocean, so the members of the four castes, when they take up the law of the Buddha, lose their fanner characteristics"-yet on the other they form a well-defined company, the `"sons of the Sakiya's son." We can see that the effective aim of Buddhism was to discriminate between different natures, for which the touchstone was the Doctrine of Awakening itself: a discrimination that could not do other than stimulate the spiritual bases that originally had themselves been the sole justification of the Aryan hierarchy. In confirmation of this is the fact thaf the establishment and diffusion of Buddhism never in later centuries caused dissolution of the caste system-even today in Ceylon this system continues undisturbed side by side with Buddhism; while, in Japan, Buddhism lives in harmony with hierarchical, traditional, national, and warrior concepts. Only in certain West-ern misconceptions is Buddhism--considered in later and corrupted forms-presented as a doctrine of universal compassion encouraging humanitarianism and democratic equality." - Evola, The Doctrine of Awakening


    "Siddhattha has so little sympathy for the masses that in one of the oldest texts he speaks of the "common crowd" as a "heap of rubbish," where there takes place the miraculous flowering of the Awakened One." -ib.


    "Buddha and His High Cast Lineage

    "Buddha tells about the earlier Buddhas in the so called Mahapadana Suttanta - Great Sermon on the Legends.[21] He refers to their membership of (high) caste as the first characteristic of their full enlightenment. According to this report the Buddhas belonged all to the high castes, to the kshatriyas and brahmanas. Buddha says proudly about himself “And now I, the venerable and fully enlightened one, was born a warrior and have come from the caste of warriors, o monks.”[22]

    However, to Siddharta and the monks that listened to him, not only the varna, the hierarchical class but also the jati, the clan respectively the family were of substantial importance. For example, he tells about Buddha Vipassi that he belonged to the Kondanna clan. About himself Siddharta reports that he is a kshatriya and was born in the Gotama clan.[23] Not only his clan but also his parents’ name and place of residence is stated, probably in order to prove Buddha’s necessary high mundane birth. The text shows that they were all Rajas and brahmanas.

    The point of naming of the caste membership of both parents is clear: all the Buddhas do not only come from high but also from pure castes. Even though the different castes of the parents were so high, it is absolutely unthinkable for them to have been conceived in a mixed marriage.

    The standpoint which caste a Buddha should belong to has not been revised in Buddhism up to the present day. It is dogmatised in the Lalitavistara in the following way: a Bodhisattva can by no means come from a lower or even mixed caste: “After all Bodhisattvas were not born in despised lineage, among pariahs, in families of pipe or cart makers, or mixed castes.”[25]

    Instead, in perfect harmony with the Great Sermon, it was said that: “The Bodhisattvas appear only in two kinds of lineage, the one of the brahmanas and of the warriors (kshatriya).”[26]

    The Bodhisattva explains to the gods that he should be born only in a family of a noble birth and caste. Furthermore the family ought to have procreated only in a direct line and on the man’s side, an adoption is impossible. Otherwise, purity would not be guaranteed. The purity of the family is so essential, that the father-to-be Suddhodana says: "King Suddhodana is pure on the side of the mother and father and was born in a respected family."[29]

    For the ancient Indian Buddhists like the author of the Lalitavistara the idea that somebody belonging to a lower caste or even a dalit could become a Buddha was absolutely impossible.

    The preference of the kshatriyas and the brahmanas in ancient Buddhism leaves no place for doubts: Buddha and the so called impure castes were entirely separated from each other. A Buddha had nothing to deal with the dalits. The dalits were unworthy of Buddha-ship.


    Summary


    Consequently, to understand Buddha as a radical social reformer or even as a liberator of the dalits, is an unhistorically backward projection of modern wishes on a topically religious authority. Especially social reformatory Neo-Buddhists in the East and West make use of such an ideological construct."

    http://web.uni-frankfurt.de/irenik/relkultur50.htm

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    Senior Member Utopian's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    I didn't say that they were "just anything"; nor did I say that they were the result of "modern thinking"; I am saying that when it comes to a concept such as the "Race-Soul", Race is primary - not 'secondary' as Evola saith.

    Just because this position of mine doesn't tally with your "Hermetic" [and supposedly "original" & "traditional"] outlook doesn't necessarily make it "counterfeit modern" [which is just name-calling, after all].

    I am suggesting that my position is informed by a particular tradition which differs from the Hermetic [I know that you claim that there is 'only one tradition', and that is the 'Hermetic' - but then don't all dogmatists say that?].
    Not only that, this tradition of mine is far more "original" & "traditional" to Europeans than is imported 'Hermeticism'!

    My tradition is that of the Northern Tradition;

    "The words Northern Tradition describe the basic aspects of natural spirituality indigenous to the lands of Northern Europe.
    The Northern Tradition is a sacred world-view native to that part of Europe generally north of the Alps.
    It is distinct & almost completely separate from the spiritual system known in Occultism as the Western Tradition.
    The Western Tradition has the precise meaning of a collection of magical practices influenced in the main by the mythology & beliefs of the Middle East ...
    "
    [Nigel Pennick, Runic Astrology]

    Such as Hermeticism;
    "Nominally Egyptian ... the Hermetic elixir was composed of ingredients from all the great Traditions active in Alexandria [including] ... Egyptian religion ... Alexandrian Judaism ..." etc.,
    http://www.meta-religion.com/Esoteri...ermeticism.htm

    I emphasise this as we are discussing the notion of a Race-Soul.
    The Northern Tradition expresses the ancient Northern Race-Soul, and that Race-Soul, only.

    "As a nature-based spiritual path, the Northern Tradition is expressed in the interaction between the inward experiences of people, & their exterior experiences of the climate & landscape ...
    The Northern Tradition is a holistic system, integrated with reality ...
    Had the ancient ways been retained, & further refined, then many of the world's present ills would've been avoided ... before the perceived split between the human and the natural ...
    In this schism between humans and nature, we have been separated from the animals, which still experience reality in this unbroken manner.
    We have lost this spontaneity of life ...
    "
    [ib.,]

    In this outlook there is no separation of Soul & Body; and neither is there a denigration of the Body.
    It is but a return to the ancient wayes of the North.
    As usual, you have no clue what you're talking about. The ONE TRADITION is synonymous with its HYPERBOREAN ORIGINS, as expressed also in the religion and mythology of the Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Vedic, Buddhist, Greek, Roman, etc., of which you have no understanding but a MISUNDERSTANDING. All of your sources are non-traditional or worse, belonging to the left hand path which raises Satanism on its shoulders. That should be a clue as to your philosophy as opposed to mine which acknowledges the true Gods.
    adaequatio rei et intellectus

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian
    As usual, you have no clue what you're talking about. The ONE TRADITION is synonymous with its HYPERBOREAN ORIGINS, as expressed also in the religion and mythology of the Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Vedic, Buddhist, Greek, Roman, etc., of which you have no understanding but a MISUNDERSTANDING.
    Not so; I know exactly what I am talking about; it is rather you who is unsure of what you mean [and that has been your own problem throughout your contributions to this thread].

    For example, hitherto you have only spoken of "Hermeticism". Only now do you revise that and speak instead of the "Hyperboren".

    Your previous and constant references to Hermeticism have naturally suggested that you accept the Egyptian, Masonic and Judaic elements which are so dominant in that tradition, which you have always vaunted here and elsewhere.

    Now that you are restricting yourself to an Aryan spiritual lineage; the 'Vedic/Buddhistic/Greek/Roman/Celtic/Slavic/Norse', as you select - (what no Germanic?) - even this itself is not a single stream, but rather various off-shoots of Arya.

    Spengler would hold that these Aryan traditions include various Race-Souls too. Although I would say that if this is so, they are sub-souls to the over-arching Aryan Race-Soul.
    The particularate Race-Soul of the Northern Tradition is certainly a sub-soul of the greater Aryan Race-Soul; however it has its own unique characteristics.

    All of your sources are non-traditional or worse, belonging to the left hand path which raises Satanism on its shoulders. That should be a clue as to your philosophy as opposed to mine which acknowledges the true Gods.
    Are Rosenberg and Himmler of the dreaded "left hand path"?
    Those have been my main sources here.

    Is the Northern Tradition [Germanic Heathenism, another 'source' of mine] the "left hand path"?

    Is the Northern Tradition, the indigenous spirituality of Northern Europe, "non-traditional" to Europeans?

    Do you say that as a European? [I ask because, if not, your traditions would understandably be different to mine].

    Incidentally; strange how it was that, like you, the Christian Church accused those Northern Europeans who clung to the true (pagan) traditons of Northern Europe of being "Satanists" too!

    Only Christians are frightened of Satanists [they had invented Him, after all]!
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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