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Thread: The Concept of Race Soul

  1. #91
    Senior Member Utopian's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    But isn't it the point that the natural-man is the "higher man"!
    That Nature herself is "this Higher Principle"?

    ...

    As Pennick & Jones ['A History of Pagan Europe'] point out, Pagan religions have the following features in common;

    i) They are Polytheistic,

    ii) They view Nature as a theophany, a manifestation of divinity,

    iii) They recognise the female divine principle as well as the male.

    For me, point ii) is what we are getting at here, in the sense that - as you say - Nature herself wills divinty into Presence.
    This would only be true from a linear perspective rather than the cyclic.

    Nature worship, instinct, will, sentiment...does not lead to samadhi.

    In all traditional mythologies nature and the natural comprised of the lesser forces, some of which were thought to be in opposition to the gods, because of the fallen nature. (The fall is not a semitic concept; it is a part of every religion, which describes the different stages of being, from the most superior to the most inferior.)
    adaequatio rei et intellectus

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian
    This would only be true from a linear perspective rather than the cyclic.
    What could be more cyclic than Nature? The cyclical outlook is in itself taught by Nature.

    Nature worship, instinct, will, sentiment...does not lead to samadhi.
    If samadhi is a 'non-dualistic' state of consciousness, then the kind of unification of Man with Nature I am speaking of, is certainly of that ilk.
    [Samadhi];
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

    In all traditional mythologies nature and the natural comprised of the lesser forces, some of which were thought to be in opposition to the gods, because of the fallen nature. (The fall is not a semitic concept; it is a part of every religion, which describes the different stages of being, from the most superior to the most inferior.)
    In Germanic mythology the gods are very much personifications of Nature - 'Thorburn' actually means 'thunder'.

    All Nature goes through the basic three stages of coming into being, of growth, and lastly of declining into death.

    While growth may be considered 'superior' to birth or death, this is a prejudice; the wisdom around the point of death and the innocence around the point of birth are both invaluable.

    Of course, Nature is ranked according to the particular perspective of the [natural] being doing the ranking; however this ranking is just as much the particular expression of the being doing the ranking. Therefore, by looking at the table of values posited by that being we can learn more about the being itself, rather than anything else.

    From certain human perspectives, some parts of Nature could be considered to have 'fallen' [although other human (and non-human) perspectives may view the same phenomena very differently]; again, this tells us more about that being which describes 'the fallen'.

    This is because man is himself a part of Nature, and is therefore poorly equipped to judge himself.
    Man has, however, sometimes worked against Nature; man has therefore been at times a force of anti-Nature. But as we now see, ultimately Nature will get her own back on Man for his blasphemies: when he blasphemed the Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    I disagree. It is not "misleading" at all.
    I say misleading because to describe this viewpoint [that Spirituality is the product of Nature] as 'materialism' leaves out the belief in the necessity of the Spirit, as if to say there is 'only' matter.

    In a rude manner of speaking, mental masturbation should be secondary to real sex.
    But is sex possible without a sense of the Erotic [seeing the Erotic as the 'spirit' of sex in this connection]?
    Again, I suggest that Matter & Spirit cannot be separated anymore than can Body & Soul be separated.
    I agree with you that the Body is primary, but the Body cannot be thought of without the sense of the spirit or the soul; indeed, it is the very thinking itself which gives us spirit & soul.

    Right now, f**king is more important than thinking.
    Again, there is no reason in the world that they should [or can] be mutually exclusive.
    This is a false Either/Or.

    The luxury of metaphysics can only be afforded in a society that is content with itself and secure in its continuing existence.
    I disagree; thinking is the key to human survival; we out-thought our enemies and so got to the top of the food-chain.
    Also, thinking increases in times of great danger; some of the best thinking arose in periods of intense conflict.
    Indeed, I would say that the problem with "secure existence" is that it brings about a laziness in thinking, a preference for entertainment instead and the flourishing of trivialities. There is always a lack of thought [and babies] in such periods ...

    Nature has no will. Man has will. Aryan man has the Faustian will.
    Man is a piece of Nature.
    If Man has Will [as he does, according to Man] then why can't other forms of Nature have Will too?

    Paganism is a dead-end street. Being is the key, not believing and/or worshipping.
    You may worship in your own way.

    The gods die when the race (that created them) dies.
    That should happen, because ideally every race should have its own gods; but we know that not to be so in every case.
    There are races who worship the gods of other, long extinct races.
    Also, when gods die, is there a vacuum created, ready to be filled by other 'gods'?
    Every strong race should have its own gods, as it is that race's way of saying; 'our gods represent ourselves at the very peak of spiritual perfection and potency'.

    The gods are not eternal. Paganism was a temporary manifestation of the Race's mood at a particular time. The Race willed Paganism into existence. It did not exist before it and is already dead while the Race still lives.
    This is an interesting question. It is possible that humankind [such as Cro Magnon man] existed for a long period without a Spirituality before 'inventing' it in more recent times. The evidence seems to point that way.
    However, Spirituality must be connected with man's evolution, and must therefore be linked to man's increased thinking capacity in the crucial periods of that development.
    Therefore I say that man as a thinking, scientific being must also be a Spiritual being at the same time.
    He must see Nature herself as Sacred.
    Certain anti-natural and therefore non-Pagan religions caused man to forget that he too was a part of this Nature.
    It is therefore a part of man's further development that he will return to the Pagan ways [as he is doing naturally].
    To deny the Spirit & the Sacred would just increase the mistakes made by anti-nature.

    The Race can be without ascribing its being to forces beyond itself. The solace of the Race today is science and not religion. Rockets will propel us to the place where the gods once lived. The gods will be replaced by us. Thor is dead, long live the Astronaut! While Thor once hurled lightning FROM the sky, we will propel like lightning INTO the sky.
    Constantin
    Again, my position is not that the Spirit is "beyond man", but rather that the Spirit is man.
    Man must go beyond the human - but this does not mean that man will go beyond Nature!.
    It is only in his moments of Spiritual Power that man exceeds himself!
    Your own examples themselves only advert to the powers of nature [flight, lightning etc.,]
    Man is still very puny when compared to the awesome might of Nature.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Utopian's Avatar
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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul'

    We've been down this road before. Your placing beliefs onto my philosophy which I don't actually believe but which is based on a literal misunderstanding of all the terms and concepts that I've been using that are a part of tradition and which have a very specific meaning.
    adaequatio rei et intellectus

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul'

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian
    Your placing beliefs onto my philosophy which I don't actually believe
    Please give examples of your "philosophy", and then show what beliefs anyone here has "placed onto" it.
    What are your beliefs, and does this relate to the subject of the 'Race-Soul'?

    based on a literal misunderstanding of all the terms and concepts that I've been using
    Please give examples of these so-called "terms and concepts" in such a way that we can better "understand" them.

    that are a part of tradition
    Please tell us what "tradition" you are referring to, and what this tradition has to do with the Thread's subject.

    and which have a very specific meaning.
    Please tell us what these "specific meanings" are, and what your sources are for them.

    Otherwise, I will have to assume that these so-called 'traditional specific meanings of a belief-philosophy' are as non-existent as your arguments.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul'

    If the gods were really dead, you're not talking about them here.

    A god is a principle. A principle cannot die. And without principles, a race is just a empty shell.

    Not all plutocrats (these plutocrats that support anti-white governments in Africa, these governments being of marxist orientation), are jews: much of them, if not the most, are white.

    Marxism, as capitalism (not just liberalcapitalism), is in it's essence materialist. The deprivation of spirituality and thought turns one into a slave to a machine - if this machine is a red state-ruled or a blue private-ruled one, this dont matters, will opress in the same degree, as is opressing now. Turns one in a specimen to be analysed and judged in terms of what he can "produces" in an assembly line. It's good, for those in power, to deprive some of his spirituality, and especially from his thought, because with this, enslavement will be more easy.
    The first step is to reduce the biological level. How this is possible? Feminism, an arm of the communist/capitalist, is already doing this. Women today dont like highly spiritualized or thinking men. No, they prefer primitive men, because the propaganda ruled by communist, these with money from the plutocrats that supports them, put them at the same level of primitive men, forcing them to work in jobs that they dont need, depriving them of a sense of belonging to something (women, I think, need more of this than man). This results in children of low biological level, incapable of thought and self-learning, easily manipulated by propaganda. Intelligent men are leaving without children, dont pass on his genes, except if he uses his intelligence to gain money, so he can gets a consumerist woman to marry, but he'll still lack his spirituality, and his life will be empty.
    When Evola preached the "active nihilism", I guess that he thought that no other means than war is possible. We're at a war, and, as Nietzsches says, if someone dont known how to use the weapons (the mouth and pencil being weapons too), he'll go to nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    ""Yeats takes the next logical step, a step taken later by Jung himself: that there is a racial memory, which works in terms of symbols.This racial memory can be reached by 'hushing the unquiet mind', by reaching a certain depth of inner stillness where it becomes accessible to the limited individual memory.
    [C Wilson, The Occult]

    "Yeats also thought that fairies were symbolic expressions of a racial memory, which, through some parapsychological process, become reality."
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/yeats.htm

    "The guardian sídhe is often considered a ghost or half ghost. This is a bit different than the "undead" concept. The sídhe are extremely beautiful and while seem mature, look very young in the face and appear in a different light. ...
    Birthmarks often figure into many legends. They often leave behind something to the human as evidence. In one legend, the female sídhe kissed one of King Niall's (of the nine hostages fame) sons on the right side of the nose and left a small mark or sídhe mark there. Marks can be left in a variety of locations. The mark often passes down from father to son through lineage randomly. It is legend in some regions of Ireland that if the sídhe approves of her child or grandchild, the mother will pass the mark and she will be, in a way, that child's mother."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhe


    ""W. B. Yeats accounts for all this by speaking of the 'Anima Mundi described by Platonic philosophers,' a kind of racial memory 'independent of embodied individual memories, though they constantly enrich it with their images and their thoughts ... a memory of Nature that reveals events and symbols of distant centuries. Mystics of many countries and many centuries have spoken of this memory ... Yeats, then, takes the next logical step in the argument - a step taken some years later by Jung himself: that there is a racial memory, which works in terms of symbols. This racial memory can be reached by 'hushing the unquiet mind,' by reaching a certain depth of inner stillness where it becomes accessible to the limited individual memory Yeats goes even further, and suggests that 'magical cures' used by primitive peoples may produce their effect by somehow touching these subliminal depths." (Wilson C 105)."
    http://www.dhushara.com/book/sac/sacrame.htm


    "For Lamarck and Neo-Lamarckians alike, instinct is to be understood as racial memory or habit, behavior acquired as a result of the trials and travails of experience and subsequently incorporated into the genome by some admittedly mysterious process. According to this theory, the individual honeyguide behaves as it does not from personal experience or parental education, rather as the beneficiary of the cumulative experience and knowledge acquired by generations of ancestors, for whom the symbiotic interaction with mammals was a long-established habit.
    Elsewhere we find Darwin writing as follows: "Some intelligent actions, after being performed during several generations, become converted into instincts and are inherited...
    The idea that innate behavior and instinct depend on racial memory and habit pervades Darwin's discussions of emotion, sexual selection, the origin of articulate speech, and the inordinate development of the human brain.30 Indeed, it is impossible to understand Darwin's writings in these areas apart from this principle."
    http://www.maverickscience.com/Evolu...al_memory.html


    "One must revise one's ideas about memory: here lies the chief temptation to assume a 'soul', which - outside time - reproduces, recognises etc.,
    [Nietzsche WP 502]
    Nietzsche remarked somewhere that sometimes our actions are preceded by an almost invisible driving force just beside us - I am trying to recall where he said that. It relates to the idea of the Fetch.

    Also, in TSZ, The Great Longing, he gives his "soul" a series of names/roles/titles/functions. I think some of them could be set to correspond with the 9-part soul complex you posted earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    This is why Evola is not a role model for people that are serious about preserving the White race. If one wants to save the White race, one needs to adopt a staunch materialist outlook. Only through the thorough application of materialist principles can Europe be saved. Materialism dictates that spirituality stems from matter. Both Evola's and Yockey's notion of a "spiritual race" is therefore a contradiction in itself since race is matter and not spirit.

    Lets critique Evola for the right reasons, please.

    From his writings, 'Presentation of the Jewish Problem', and 'Race as a Builder of Leaders':
    http://thompkins_cariou.tripod.com/id3.html

    "...in its current form, racism is the doctrine according to which it is thought that any value derives from the innate qualities of a blood and of a race which has retained its original purity - racism rules out any idea of a forming from above, from a suprabiological reality, of a biological raw material. We have exactly the contrary in Judaism. What comes first in Judaism is the law, not the blood. It is the law which has given shape and unity to the Jewish people, not a race in the strict sense of the word.

    It has been said, by a Jew, that, just as Adam was formed by Jehovah, the Jew was formed by the Jewish law, and this truth is not limited to the Judaism of the Old Testament, whose spiritual history has been much more eventful than is assumed, but extends also to the Judaism of the Diaspora, in which it becomes even more emphatically the case, since the Talmud appears as the real essence and the real soul of Judaism.

    A first important point which derives from recognising this is that 'Jewishness', before than in the blood, must be sought in the spirit : 'race', here, is essentially a behaviour, a way of being and of thinking, which, in philosophical terms, can be said to be a 'category' of spirit. It is important to establish firmly in one's mind this point in order to be able to identify a field of action of Judaism much vaster than the one that is defined by blood alone.

    ...To note this, and, therefore, to assert the necessity of identifying Judaism as a spiritual category, does not prevent us from noting also that the persistence of an idea, of an attitude, of a belief through generations ends up finding expression in an instinct, in something which penetrates into the blood, lives and acts in the blood, and, in many cases, completely irrespective of everything that the individual, as reflexive consciousness, thinks and believes he wants ; this is the second aspect of Judaism, this is Judaism, strictly speaking, as 'race' ; race, therefore, in a rather special, non naturalistic, sense.

    Far from being confined to the sphere of academia or from exhausting itself in cultural and propagandistic forms, the doctrine of race should thus contribute to the achievement of such a task. Of course, the prerequisite, here, is that such doctrine is understood in a global manner, and is therefore not limited to the biological and anthropological sphere ('racism of first degree'), but is led also to consider race as a reality of the soul, of the character and of the way of life, and, finally, race as 'world-outlook' and race of the spirit ('racism of second and third degree').

    Every kind of indiscriminate ethnic adulteration, on the one hand, is the consequence of a degenerated inner sensibility and of the tyranny of materialistic, individualistic and sentimental considerations, and, on the other hand, is the cause of the further degeneration of peoples and civilisations ; this must be borne in mind. Precise considerations of 'racism of first degree' should thus not be neglected in the creation of a new ruling class, and, certainly, as things stand at present, in Italy above all, it is not impossible that physical appearances peculiar to a given race may be accompanied by the psychic traits of a different race. It cannot be disputed, however, that, except in exceptional cases, when the research and the subsequent selection is restricted to a sphere defined by the correspondence to this racial physical type that we consider as higher, namely the Nordic Aryan, we are more likely to find corresponding spiritual qualities than we would through haphazard research, which ignored this physical racial typology and this sign of a heredity and of an origin, maybe buried, but unlikely to be completely extinct, which a relative racial purity in a physical and anthropological sense constitutes.

    Once, by means of the racism of first degree, a given sphere and a first selection are identified, we should proceed, through the racism of second and third degree, to further tests, in an exploration of deeper and more essential qualities than those of the outer appearance.


    Evola advocated a step-by-step racial breeding process - three degrees, commencing materially with the Body first!

    A fair critique of Evola should be from a consideration of his views from this passage further:

    "Western civilisation has become spiritually Judaised in important sectors, and is thus affected by a forma mentis of a more or less Jewish type, even where no crossbreeding has taken place and, therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to speak of an influence by way of blood."

    He means to say if today an Aryan man has fallen down spiritually because his spirit has succumbed to a certain "jewish morality" and he behaves "like" one, he has cross-bred spiritually without any blood-mixing being directly involved. He's conveying the view that if the spirit slackens, the Body itself is attacked!

    So I understand Evola to have considered and given a lot of importance to the "material" ramifications of racial science. I don't see it being neglected in his writings. I don't think Yockey obfuscates either when he similarly speaks of cultural parasites distinguishing their attack from outside and inside the Body.


    Evola is a universal humanist because his theories postulate that a "spiritual race" is open to all members of "humanity." Lest we forget that this supposedly global community has already been discredited (because of its non-existence) by serious racist thinkers.
    I am not sure that's a fair assessment. Evola for instance distinguished Aryan virility from a Jewish one. That tells he was not speaking of a 'virtue in itself' like it could be isolated and Honour would mean the same to an Aryan or a Jew. And within Tradition, the various warrior castes are compared side by side but that by no means implies he common-ed that warrior spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    Man has will.
    Man IS Will, as IS Life.


    Paganism is a dead-end street. Being is the key, not believing and/or worshipping. The gods die when the race (that created them) dies. The gods are not eternal. Paganism was a temporary manifestation of the Race's mood at a particular time. The Race willed Paganism into existence. It did not exist before it and is already dead while the Race still lives. The Race can be without ascribing its being to forces beyond itself.
    Wrong.

    Paganism from "pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (pact)."

    What is this pact? Around what is it fixed or fastened? ---

    "That your virtue is your Self, and not an outward thing, a skin, or a cloak: that is the truth from the basis of your souls... That your very Self be in your action, as the mother is in the child:let that be your formula of virtue!"

    - Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra/The Virtuous


    Paganism is the way of fixing or fastening- making a pact of the "I" with the "Self" - so that it stands as "I-AM".

    The Gods are not some eternal Beyond. The Pagan Gods are the Race's very own "Self", and not an invention 'in addition to-".

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Indeed, I would say that the problem with "secure existence" is that it brings about a laziness in thinking, a preference for entertainment instead and the flourishing of trivialities. There is always a lack of thought [and babies] in such periods ...
    Joseph Goebbels - who was raised as catholic - wrote in his diary that "...children are good thoughts of God."

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrian
    Evola advocated a step-by-step racial breeding process - three degrees, commencing materially with the Body first!

    A fair critique of Evola should be from a consideration of his views from this passage further:

    "Western civilisation has become spiritually Judaised in important sectors, and is thus affected by a forma mentis of a more or less Jewish type, even where no crossbreeding has taken place and, therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to speak of an influence by way of blood."

    He means to say if today an Aryan man has fallen down spiritually because his spirit has succumbed to a certain "jewish morality" and he behaves "like" one, he has cross-bred spiritually without any blood-mixing being directly involved. He's conveying the view that if the spirit slackens, the Body itself is attacked!
    Soul-mixing. Christianity.
    Somewhere I read that christianity in the old empire was considered as in the same degree of comunism today.
    As Darwin puts it, the habit is inherited if it is practiced over generations. Christianity is derived from judaism, was the vehicle by which the jewish "soul-genes" passed to the aryan race. Without christianity there was no capitalism. Feudalism was in origin pagan (the word is related to fehu, the name of a rune), but with the christian conversion it turned more suitable to open the way for capitalism through the division created by the feudal lords (divide to conquer). You can see an oppositon between the bourgueiose and the feudal lords, but this is only an appearance - in truth, what happened was a regression of castes (there is a text of Evola that treats this subject). The only thing in the way was the Renaissance. Evola rejected the Renaissance, saying that it was materialistic, but the Renaissance was a trying to bring back classical values. Nietzsche (who praised the Renaissance) said it failed because of Luther, the Reformation and the consequent Counter-Reformation by the church. Today calvinism, a type of protestantism, is related to capitalism more than catholicism.
    This all have to do with the soul, and the spirit. The soul is like the body, temporary and perishable, but the spirit pervades the soul and purify it, adapting it to some standards. Only the spirit, the sacred, the immanent, can solve the problem of soul-mixing. And the spirit can be understood though philosophical thinking. Philosophy cannot be neglected. Unfortunatelly, nothing will solve the problem of physical race-mixing, because the (living) physical body is more temporary and perishable than the soul. So, fucking only is not the solution, because you need to select first, and to select you'll need to recognize the race soul, not just the physical one.

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    Re: On The So-Called 'Race Soul' [Evola]

    Quote Originally Posted by fms panzerfaust
    Only the spirit, the sacred, the immanent, can solve the problem of soul-mixing. And the spirit can be understood though philosophical thinking. Philosophy cannot be neglected. Unfortunatelly, nothing will solve the problem of physical race-mixing, because the (living) physical body is more temporary and perishable than the soul. So, fucking only is not the solution, because you need to select first, and to select you'll need to recognize the race soul, not just the physical one.
    Exactly. It is no use to pick out ("select") a girl which is outwardly of the same "race" as you, but inside differs from you in every spiritual aspect. How can you come along with such wife? And how your children should and will be raised? What is the final aim of such relationship? Race must be strong and "pure" outside and inside.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fms panzerfaust
    Marxism, as capitalism (not just liberalcapitalism), is in it's essence materialist. The deprivation of spirituality and thought turns one into a slave to a machine
    Yes; the difference I have with Utopian is that I believe that Spirituality is a consequence of the Body, and is therefore also an expression of the Body [using Body in the widest sense of the word].

    Whereas Utopian seems to think that the Body is a product of Spirit, and is also separated from the Spirit.

    I believe conversely, not only that Spirit is a product of Body, but that Body & Spirit are inseparable.

    Because Utopian calls this position of mine "materialist" - which it most certainly isn't!, then Ogenoct jumps on the bandwagon and tries to assume that he has found common cause with Moody as a fellow 'materialist'!

    This could not be further from the truth!

    I too believe in Spirit - but only in the Order that I have described.

    I also think that this Order is necessary for the Race-Soul doctrine; the very 'spiritual' notion of Race is derived from the Body.

    "Think with your Blood!"

    Quote Originally Posted by fms panzerfaust
    Evola rejected the Renaissance, saying that it was materialistic, but the Renaissance was a trying to bring back classical values. Nietzsche (who praised the Renaissance) said it failed because of Luther, the Reformation and the consequent Counter-Reformation by the church. Today calvinism, a type of protestantism, is related to capitalism more than catholicism.
    This is one of the difficulties I have with Evola too.

    The Renaissance was very much a revival of Paganism!

    How could Evola get that so wrong?

    As Pennick & Jones point out in their must-read 'A Pagan History of Europe', in the 15th century, Pope Pius II excommunicated Sigismondo Malatesta, for example, after condemning the latter's temple of victory because it was "full of Pagan images".

    They go on;

    "The Renaissance ideal grew up in Italy at this time, as a deliberate continuation of the outlook of antiquity. It had nothing to do with Christianity, and it was seen by most people as something independent of & transcending religious affiliation".
    [ib., p. 201]

    And as you indicate, the swingeing [and Judaised] Reformation cut away at the Pagan survivals in Christianity;

    "The reform movements within Catholicism which crystallised into the Protestant Reformation in the early 16th century brought about a desire for simplicity of ritual & belief which rejected many of the compromises which the Church had made with Pagan practice.
    The veneration of the Virgin Mary & of the saints, the use of images & of incense, & the marking of holy sites with crosses & wayside shrines, disappeared under Protestant influence.
    Traditional practices such as Maying, carolling, wassailing, & the many Pagan practices incorporated into Christmas celebrations were also attacked".
    [ib., p. 203]

    Nietzsche has much to say about the effects of the Reformation in his The Antichrist, of course.
    http://www.hkshp.org/wclassic/nietzsche-antichrist.htm
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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