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Thread: How Germanic is France?

  1. #171
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    Canadians who are blended British Isles and French are part of an Anglocentric society, obvious by the coat of arms, which were the original ones devised for America, except for missing Holland and the Holy Roman Empire--America currently only has the German eagle and neither features the Belgic lion. Those French elsewhere, who followed the Capetian, Valois, Bourbon, Orléans and Bonaparte rulers, were tied with Navarre, Corsica, Milan, Naples, Haiti and even Poland. Also, the Dauphin Louis was proclaimed King of England during the Barons' Wars and Franēois II was made King of Scots, a joint pretender to the Anglo-Irish thrones alongside Mary, Queen of Scots.

  2. #172
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    If 23andMe have a hard time distinguishing Germans and Frenchies, I'd say that speaks to the notion of France as a whole at least being significantly Germanic in ancestry. And PCAs consistently show a greater overlap between the French and British/German clusters than the French and Iberian/Italian clusters. So if we divide France into three equal parts; North-Western, Southern and North-Eastern, I think it would be fair to assume that latter division is more Germanic than non-Germanic. While the other two probably are predominantly Celtic/N.W.European and Romance/Mediterranean, respectively, ancestrally speaking.

    Attachment 115193

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    If you look at the clusters I've encircled, they're not that much wider spread than the clusters between the Scandinavian countries, which generally is considered quite homogenous.
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  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    If 23andMe have a hard time distinguishing Germans and Frenchies, I'd say that speaks to the notion of France as a whole at least being significantly Germanic in ancestry. And PCAs consistently show a greater overlap between the French and British/German clusters than the French and Iberian/Italian clusters. So if we divide France into three equal parts; North-Western, Southern and North-Eastern, I think it would be fair to assume that latter division is more Germanic than non-Germanic. While the other two probably are predominantly Celtic/N.W.European and Romance/Mediterranean, respectively, ancestrally speaking.

    Attachment 115193

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    If you look at the clusters I've encircled, they're not that much wider spread than the clusters between the Scandinavian countries, which generally is considered quite homogenous.
    It's unfortunate that Patrick couldn't stay on the basis of pre-modern views of France. Frankenreich is still the name of the land in Deutsch, so it must be remembered that stem duchies existed for the Franks themselves in Paris, but also the Burgundians, Visigoths and Normans. Any aware of his roots who proclaims German rather than Roman identity, is a boon for Skadi. If someone is Scottish, counted Germanic already here, but also partly Irish and not whining about Germanic Englishness, also great, for not being a Celticist. It's not like Patrick was extolling the merits of the Bretons, Provenēals, Corsicans or Basques, although the Bretons aren't far removed from Welsh.

    Really, only Languedoc isn't much for compatibility with Germania, whereas l'Oil is more Germanic than Prussia and perhaps equal to Austro-Bavaria in this regard. Some may say that France's Germanic roots may be in name only, or that Bavaria (and Bohemia) is Celtic in name only, but what this means is, they're overlapping in a Celto-Germanic or Germano-Celtic manner, which is already unavoidable for all West Germanics.

    It's only an accident of history that France was hijacked by Latinists based in places like Marseilles, who've used Paris to suppress the natives on behalf of Rome. Should we not provide a safe haven for them to be comfortable in their own Germanic skin, or must we be complicit in their unconsenting Roman oblivion?

    Unfortunately, there are those who call themselves Germanic and yet worship Rome whilst demonising Germanic English, a Celticist mentality. Such was the case when Charlemagne butchered the Saxons. Logical inconsistencies are troubling when it comes to the type of moribund atmosphere plaguing Skadi. Alpinism seems to be held on a pedestal and it's a crying shame.

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  6. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    Really, only Languedoc isn't much for compatibility with Germania, whereas l'Oil is more Germanic than Prussia and perhaps equal to Austro-Bavaria in this regard. Some may say that France's Germanic roots may be in name only, or that Bavaria (and Bohemia) is Celtic in name only, but what this means is, they're overlapping in a Celto-Germanic or Germano-Celtic manner, which is already unavoidable for all West Germanics.
    I might like to stress that we do not generally discuss 'profiling questions' to the point that we heighten a country's supposed Germanic heritage by virtue of its long by-gone history and/or simple namings of a country. As far as I'm concerned - and I think I speak for most here - France's case isn't just an "accident of history turning Latinate". Little more than the ruling class was ever particularly Germanic for most parts of France. By that logic you would lead a pan-European forum and allow Turks because there once used to be Greeks, Celts and Hittites in that area.

    We traditionally do leave some leeway into allowing people who have some Norman ancestry and identify with being Germanic, because with that area of France there's quite some proof to give for wider parts of its historical society being all-Germanic. We've allowed the same for a couple of Longobards on a case-to-case basis in the past considering these were cases who very strongly identified with the Germanic heritage of their region to the point of in some cases being Folkish Heathens. We've turned people from the same extraction down for the sake of not identifying enough with the Germanic side.

    We're not however going to change our admittance policies because of speculation, though. What's next, allowing blond Spaniards for the Visigoths? Not going to happen. And it's definitely not going to happen if people in the exact same draw-of-breath decide to downplay the Germanic heritage of solidly Germanic places within Germanic countries.

    Also a gentle reminder that this isn't about liking or disliking certain ethnic groups. Many of us, including some Staffers have mutual respect for other European ethnicities and might even have friends coming from a Romance, Celtic, Baltic or Slavic country. Skadi is unique in being a safe haven by Germanics for Germanics though and going 'more exclusive' was the best decision we ever made over ten years ago, as it was also an immediate end to let's say Finns and Russians quarreling over their ethnic animosities on a Germanic country.
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  8. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    As far as I'm concerned - and I think I speak for most here - France's case isn't just an "accident of history turning Latinate". Little more than the ruling class was ever particularly Germanic for most parts of France. By that logic you would lead a pan-European forum and allow Turks because there once used to be Greeks, Celts and Hittites in that area.
    The comparison between Turkey and France is interesting. Why is the population in the former considered merely to be 'Turkic' today, while we are supposed to believe that the population of the latter received no great genetic input from their latest conquering tribe?

    Really, why don't we refer to modern-day Turks as a 'Greco-Turkic' people? While the French supposedly are 'Celto-Romanic'?

    Turkey is regarded has having experienced total population replacement, while France is regarded as having only experienced some influence in certain geographical areas and social positions.

    Is it merely because of the Franks adopting Latin culture and language that we see this difference in attitude towards their ethnic make-up? By the same token, the Normans should hardly be considered as Germanic either, as they culturally and linguistically assimilated to the local culture within a few generations.

    It's important to remember that Roman culture was considered very hip and trendy at the time, and everyone wanted to be seen as the torch-bearer of Rome's spiritual legacy. At least to the Christians. Hence the Germans establishing a 'Holy Roman Empire', and the Russians crowning their leader as 'Tsar'. If the people you conquered already spoke Latin, then that was just one less obstacle towards one's effort to be seen as a "son of Rome". So you adopt their language, instead of propagating your own.
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  10. #176
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    Everyone knows how Nordicist I have been about purity tests and how I hate double standards, but there are those here who complained about the issue of confessionalism being made important and I only think that if we're Germanic, it should be between Asgard and Protestantism, same as Gręcoromans choosing between Olympus and Catholic-Orthodox.

    Ethnolinguistics have never been based on hard and fast rules, but usually because someone is friends with someone else, like the Righteous Gentile bullshit. Either blended Germanic-Romance, Germanic-Celtic and Germanic-Uralic countrymen belong or they don't and it depends on how high a priority is placed on lebensborn and lebensraum ideals of a modern NS platform, yet are older than any of today's countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    The comparison between Turkey and France is interesting. Why is the population in the former considered merely to be 'Turkic' today, while we are supposed to believe that the population of the latter received no great genetic input from their latest conquering tribe?

    Really, why don't we refer to modern-day Turks as a 'Greco-Turkic' people? While the French supposedly are 'Celto-Romanic'?

    Turkey is regarded has having experienced total population replacement, while France is regarded as having only experienced some influence in certain geographical areas and social positions.

    Is it merely because of the Franks adopting Latin culture and language that we see this difference in attitude towards their ethnic make-up? By the same token, the Normans should hardly be considered as Germanic either, as they culturally and linguistically assimilated to the local culture within a few generations.

    It's important to remember that Roman culture was considered very hip and trendy at the time, and everyone wanted to be seen as the torch-bearer of Rome's spiritual legacy. At least to the Christians. Hence the Germans establishing a 'Holy Roman Empire', and the Russians crowning their leader as 'Tsar'. If the people you conquered already spoke Latin, then that was just one less obstacle towards one's effort to be seen as a "son of Rome". So you adopt their language, instead of propagating your own.
    Thanks for saying what I've always wanted to.

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  12. #177
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    The point of this thread was to ascertain what were the catalysts to diminish the Frankia of Charles the Bald from its Germanic cultural roots. My theory is that the Ottonian shift away from Gaul and the dual kingship of France with Navarre would have been evidence of different orientations. Furthermore, the difference between Crusades to Prussia and Jerusalem may have been due to priorities and proximities, but Baltic and Mediterranean focuses may have reflected Germanic and Italo-Celtic biases. Only Germanics went to Prussia, but all went to Jerusalem and down through the Reformation, that's obvious why one became the province of Protestantism and the other was still held onto by Catholicism.

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