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Thread: How Germanic is France?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    There was no migration of a huge tribe - that's the point here. There was a ruling elite.
    Spain was host of Germnaic tribes settling there (Visigoths ...) - still it s no Germanic country. And never has been.
    [Celts]
    Pardon me, but there was not only a migration of one tribe, but migrations of several Germanic tribes throughout France during the Early Middle Ages. Aside from the Franks, the Burgundians established a kingdom right here:



    Additionally, the Alemanni also established a kingdom bordering and overlapping with that of the Franks and Burgundians:



    Then we must contend with the formidable Visigoths, whose kingdom, at its peak, looked like this:



    And, finally, we can't forget the ever influential Normans:



    So, all things told, we have an area of land that we now call France. This land was originally inhabited by some type of Upper Paleolithic people who left us nifty cave paintings in Lascaux. Next up, the Gallic tribes invaded and were the dominant ethnic group for a while. After a bit, Caesar came in and killed off quite a bit of the Gallic population and changed their language into a Gallo-Roman hybrid. Over the next several hundred years five Germanic tribes conquer and inhabit various parts of this territory.

    Looking at this history, who are the primary contributors to the French people? We have a mixture of Gauls, Romans, Goths, Franks, Burgundians, Alemanni and Normans. The Germanic seems to outweigh the Gallo-Roman. In fact, I'd wager the only reason we're having this discussion about France (and not about Germany or Switzerland) is because the Franks decided to adopt the Catholic Religion and Latin language. It just seems strange to contend that an area of land that was conquered by five Germanic tribes is not predominantly Germanic ancestrally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    [...]An aristocracy ruling over natives does not make them the same ethnicity like their rulers.[...]
    You have said, en summa, that today's France is, by way of it's genesis, anagenesis, and ethnogenesis, a Gallo-Roman nation.

    Let's assume this to be true.

    You make the above admission of ruling elites.



    The question is begged: Who defines the character of a nation? - the rulers; or, the ruled....?


    Not so incidentally, today's France is obsessed with the (at least) nominal re-establishment of the noblesse de race.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

  3. #23
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Most Acadian ancestry stems from Normandie or Alsace-Lorraine.
    Normandy, certainly. But Alsace Lorraine ?
    The majority of Acadiens have Poitevins ancestors for sure, like Quebecois.

    It just seems strange to contend that an area of land that was conquered by five Germanic tribes is not predominantly Germanic ancestrally.
    Strange but it's like that.
    Just travel in the hexagon. In Lorraine, the difference is important between the Germanic and the Gallo-roman part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    With the French revolution. Which eventually replaced Germanic-Nordic aristocracy with Romanic-Alpinid plebeian rule.
    I suppose you got this from Hans Gunther. I read "Kleine Rassenkunde Europas" and there are many mistakes. Precisely on that you said. For exemple, the Bas-Poitevins (called "Vendéens" by Republicans) were the most anti-republican and the most pro-monarchy people of France and Poitevins are in good part Alpinid and Atlanto-Med.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    One must then factor in Norse influence from inter-marriage in Normandy and the surrounding area, German input from Alsace-Lorraine, and Brythonic presence in Brittany. Of course it is true that Romance blood is present in French, but it is mostly isolated in the south of the nation.
    Normandy have less viking blood comparing to Brittany. See my post.
    Alsace-Lorraine - or rather Elsass Lothringen - is not French, like South-Flanders or Brittany. It's just an expansion of the French empire who is not based on identity. And about the south, there are Occitania, north-Basque Country, north-Cataluna and Corsica. All of them are clearly Latin with of course, with more or less differences between them.

    The rest is the real France, la Francie, and they are Gallo-romans with Germanic influence on the boarders (Picardi, Artois, Champagne, Lorraine, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    Not so incidentally, today's France is obsessed with the (at least) nominal re-establishment of the noblesse de race.
    I don't know what do you mean but today's France is republican, anti-monarchic and atheist as hell.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    You're presenting your opinion as fact again. You have failed to provide any evidence it does, wheras history and common sense says otherwise.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

    I believe I asked you the same question.
    Then Spain and Portugal would be negroid countries. But they are not.
    Today's Germany or England are now more negroid than Spain ever was.
    Swarthyness =/=negroid.
    I had posted a genetic map of Europe and one showing the haplo-groups of Europe.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=98037&page=12
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Moors were Islamic Semites from North Africa, who were also likely to have a large degree of Negro blood (the numbers for Portugal and Sicily speak for themselves). They were not a lost tribe of Spaniards making their way home after a few centuries running around in Africa.
    Many Spaniards converted and became moors. It's mainly a cultural term.
    There was mixing too, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    There's a great deal of them, it seems.
    Explain?
    I can ensure you - if I had a hidden agenda you were the last one to detect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Who installed those Frankish aristocrats into power? Did they not bring legions of soldiers and commoners to conquer the land, build their empire, and populate the nation? Yes, they did, and it was this Germanic migration into France which inter-married with the indigenous populace. You're also completely ignoring the genetic contribution of the Normans and other Germanic tribes which migrated into the nation.
    No, they were a ruling class, there was no population replacement.
    Of course, mixing happened, most Germanics disappeared into the crowd so to speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Many are, and we've seen countless examples of "Nordic" Mongols; not all possess jet black hair or yellow complexions.
    There is a mixing, Yes, but most genes hail from Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    So your grandmother is a Germanic Frenchwoman?
    No, she was a true German.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    You asserted that French individuals from outside the "Germanic regions" would appear more Mediterranean, or at least visibly distinct, from their more Germanic countrymen. However, just two men of non-northeastern French ancestry have shown otherwise.
    There is an north-south divide within France. The northern Oil France differs from the more Mediterranean Occitania of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    So, as the various French kingdoms shifted and amalgamated, the Franks and their descendants never migrated to other parts of the nation? Neither did the Normans? How about the Alamanni? Yes, individuals of distinct meta-ethnicites remain in one place, and marry amongst one people, for all time.
    There is a difference between Germanic settlements, and Germanic kingdoms ruled by a Germanic aristocracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    I'm sure there's one or two Germanic Frenchmen in or around Marseille right now.
    Yes, can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    I know what you mean; why a forum exists where Slavs, Latins, and Balts are advising us on affairs pertinent to our group is beyond me.
    What do you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    The Normans were a ruling elite in England subsequent to 1066, yet virtually every English (and indeed, British Isles) individual would be hard pressed to not have a few Norman ancestors present in their family history. The number which migrated with William the Conqueror was probably equal to, or even smaller than, the Frankish migration into France, yet they had a massive genetic impact on the indigenous peoples of Britain and Ireland. I've found more Normans than Brythons or Anglo-Saxons in my own lineage, for example, and my family originates from a highly Brythonic region.
    Being of Norman stock does not automatically mean being of Germanic stock. The Normans of Normandy were highly frenchisized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut
    Pardon me, but there was not only a migration of one tribe, but migrations of several Germanic tribes throughout France during the Early Middle Ages. Aside from the Franks, the Burgundians established a kingdom right here:
    According to your logic we Germans are all Huns.


    Again: There are ethnic and non-ethnic kingdoms.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youen
    Normandy, certainly. But Alsace Lorraine ?
    The majority of Acadiens have Poitevins ancestors for sure, like Quebecois.
    I was basing my assumption off of my own ancestry, which has prominent lines springing from both Alsace and Baden. My family is quite typical of Acadians, so I extrapolated from my experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    According to your logic we Germans are all Huns.


    Again: There are ethnic and non-ethnic kingdoms.
    Are you contending that when one people conquer another they simply rule them for a time, then pick up shop and leave when the next batch of conquerers come in? I'm not saying at all that the modes French are the Franks, Burgundians, Normans, Alemanni or Goths. Rather, I am trying to point out that it would be nonsensical to assume that when a people conquer an area they don't leave behind a genetic legacy. This can be easily evidenced in Germany where there is some concentrations of East Baltids (a Mongoloid influenced morphological group) in the East.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youenn View Post
    I don't know what do you mean but today's France is republican, anti-monarchic and atheist as hell.
    The Association d'entraide de la Noblesse Française agrees with you...except for the inundation of over 20,000 inquiries per month it receives from republican, anti-monarchic and atheist as hell Frenchmen and Woman looking for personal geneaological linkage to the Old Nobility.

    ________________________________________ _______________________

    Which further begs the question that is being dodged.

    Aptrgangr: You have said, en summa, that today's France is, by way of it's genesis, anagenesis, and ethnogenesis, a Gallo-Roman nation.

    Let's assume this to be true.

    You make the admission of ruling elites.



    The question is begged: Who defines the character of a nation? - the rulers; or, the ruled....?
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youenn View Post
    I suppose you got this from Hans Gunther.
    From Arthur de Gobineau actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Youenn View Post
    I read "Kleine Rassenkunde Europas" and there are many mistakes. Precisely on that you said. For exemple, the Bas-Poitevins (called "Vendéens" by Republicans) were the most anti-republican and the most pro-monarchy people of France and Poitevins are in good part Alpinid and Atlanto-Med.
    Alpinids seem to be the most lazy for change, Günther describing them as frugal seems to be quite right
    However, the problem was not that Pleabian-Alpinids (don't forget the prefix, that there were good Alpinids I don't doubt) lead the crusade against the Germanic aristocracy, it was that with the downfall of the Nordic-Aristocracy, the plebs became a say in politics.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    The Association d'entraide de la Noblesse Française agrees with you...except for the inundation of over 20,000 inquiries per month it receives from republican, anti-monarchic and atheist as hell Frenchmen and Woman looking for personal geneaological linkage to the Old Nobility.
    Erm... you spoke about France ("today's France is obsessed with..."), now you speak about "personal geneaological linkage to the Old Nobility.". It's totally different.
    I don't know the percentage of nobles in France but it's certainly not the majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    From Arthur de Gobineau actually.
    Arthur de Gobineau influenced Hans Gunther anyway.

    Alpinids seem to be the most lazy for change, Günther describing them as frugal seems to be quite right
    Sometimes it's a good thing to be frugal, particurally in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youenn View Post
    Erm... you spoke about France ("today's France is obsessed with..."),
    As in the majority, the mob, the herd, the 'people', the rule as opposed to the exception. I.e. Quantity.

    now you speak about "personal geneaological linkage to the Old Nobility.". It's totally different.
    As in over 240.000 individuals out of a nation of 64 million seeking linkage to the afore mentioned exception each year. And each year the inquires rise.

    I hope I've made myself clearer.

    I don't know the percentage of nobles in France but it's certainly not the majority.
    Yes, and that is what the Association d'entraide de la Noblesse Française has to keep telling the 1 out of every 260+ people in the country each year that inquire.

    "The noble majority" is an oxymoron. - you seemed to have tripped-over one of the many implications of my original question. You also seem to have a pair; perhaps you will answer:

    Aptrgangr has said, en summa, that today's France is, by way of it's genesis, anagenesis, and ethnogenesis, a Gallo-Roman nation.

    Let's assume this to be true.

    He makes the admission of ruling elites.



    The question is begged: Who defines the character of a nation? - the rulers; or, the ruled....?

    Of course, if you disagree with Aptrgangr's conclusions, you can state as much.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    The question is begged: Who defines the character of a nation? - the rulers; or, the ruled....?
    The best exemple who contradict your view is the language who is Celto-roman and their political culture who is Roman - imperialist and assimilationist.
    There are a substratum in the east and there are an aristocracy with Germanic origine (What's the percentage of Germanic in French aristocracy ?) but that doesn't make France as a Germanic country.

    And to back on the French aristocracy... How many of them influence France today ? I wonder if you've lived in Hexagone to see they are inexistant comparing to England, Spain or Scandinavian countries.

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