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Thread: How Germanic is France?

  1. #11
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    Excellent summation

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    You're underestimating the presence of Germanic genes amongst the French. The main progenitors of the ethnic group today are the Franks and Gauls, Germanics and Celts respectively. One must then factor in Norse influence from inter-marriage in Normandy and the surrounding area, German input from Alsace-Lorraine, and Brythonic presence in Brittany. Of course it is true that Romance blood is present in French, but it is mostly isolated in the south of the nation. Even in this case, a good portion of that likely stems from Spanish and Italian migration long after the other aforementioned peoples came together to form what, today, is recognized as the French ethnicity. The fact that Latin culture prevailed in the nation over its Germanic and Celtic rivals tends to corrupt opinion of the country on an ethnic level. The French are thus, in my opinion, a Celtogermanic people, admittedly with various levels of Romance influence, the latter depending largely on region.

    Thank you for the summation. Pieces of what I'd read about the subject seemed to be pointing me towards a Germanic rather than Romantic genealogy for the French. Thanks for spelling it out. As far as that Celts, I always have a little trouble putting my finger on just where, when, and how they left their influences. Thanks for making it clear regarding France.

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    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    According to you, wheras I make no concrete (and in your case, false) assertions that my opinion is entirely correct and without error.
    The claim France was no Gallo-Romanic nation is erronous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    On the same note, many Italians and Spaniards are not such, as they descend from Moors and Semitic converts. The Portuguese are not Portuguese, as, aside from Moorish influence, there was a large injection of Negro blood from inter-mixture with slaves.
    The foreign genetic influence there is about at 10%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    The English simply don't exist, since they're an amalgamation of at least half a dozen major ethnic groups who arrived on the island in the last two thousand years,
    You seem to have no clue how ethnicity is defined. Of course do English exist, they are natives of England and can be of different native backgrounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    and don't even get me started on those Hungarians, being the descendants of a people who migrated from the Asian Far East which, by your connection of chronology to ethnicity, occured in relatively contemporary times (a few centuries isn't equal to a millenia when it comes to ethnic matters, after all).
    The Hungarians are predominantly of native european origin, they speak a non Indo-European language and adopted some Magyr customs though. There is no huge genetical influence of Mongols to be found there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Of course, this is all based off of Aptrgangr's personal view on time and the effect it has on matters of blood, integration, etc.

    What a joke.
    How many times have you been in France? And, where have you been?
    My maternal grandma was from Strasbourg, I can ensure you people from Reims or Bordeux or Paris look way different than Alsatians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Romanized by culture? Yes. Romanized by blood? No. The latter is far more important in determining the identity of a people; a Negro could be Romanized in a cultural sense.
    French overwhealmingly are of Gallo-Romanic origin (blood), with some Germanic influence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    France at the time wasn't Germanic simply by name, and saying their effect on the genepool of the people was either miniscule or entirely non-existent is supremely ignorant.
    Supremely ignorant you are - so far I haven't read one reasonable post from you.
    The Frankish aristocracy dominated a while, but most people of France never were Germanics but Gallo-Romanics. There are small areas where Germanic settlers once settled down.
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    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    I would like someone to explain to me just how Germanic or un-Germanic France is.
    I would have to agree with Aptrgangr here and say the French are of the same stock they were the day Julius Caesar clapped eyes on them.

    Of course they would have had some influences from Germanics to Moors, but on the whole the whole 'core' of the French people is Gallo-Roman.
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    Senior Member Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    The claim France was no Gallo-Romanic nation is erronous.
    Good thing I didn't make it.

    The foreign genetic influence there is about at 10%.
    Sources? Or is this more original Aptrgangr/Stirpes research? I've seen estimates of Negroid blood in the Portuguese as high as 30%, without taking into consideration input from Moors, Jewish Conversos, etc. It depends on where you're getting your information from, and whether or not the source is working under a hidden agenda.

    You seem to have no clue how ethnicity is defined. Of course do English exist, they are natives of England and can be of different native backgrounds.
    It seems it's actually you that doesn't. You explicitly stated French people of wholly or predominantly Norse or Germanic descent aren't true, ethnic French. Pot that called the kettle back, perhaps? I shouldn't be surprised; if one attempts to diminsh the Germanic ancestry of the Germans, then they obviously won't support such in a far more disputed people.

    The Hungarians are predominantly of native european origin, they speak a non Indo-European language and adopted some Magyr customs though. There is no huge genetical influence of Mongols to be found there.
    Again, I have to ask if you're serious? The Magyars are the primary ancestors of the modern Hungarians, not just a small portion of their genetic stock. Ethnically, linguistically, and, in many ways, culturally, Hungarians are far closer to their Asiatic cousins than European groups which don't descend from Asian nomads. Your own argument, displayed quite clearly in your previous post, calls for the exclusion of certain ethnic and meta-ethnic groups who arrived comparatively late from standard nation identity. Then again, maybe this only applies when it compliments your argument.

    How many times have you been in France? And, where have you been?
    My maternal grandma was from Strasbourg, I can ensure you people from Reims or Bordeux or Paris look way different than Alsatians.
    So you're part French now as well? In addition to Irish and American? This is becoming more laughable, and more hypocritical, by the minute.

    Never, nor do I need to for a picture of the modern French, but I live in a country with a huge ethnic French populace. Here are two examples of French-Canadians whose ancestors do not originate from the Franco-German border areas:



    Stephane Dion, whose mother is a born and bred Parisian.



    Gilles Duceppe, with roots in the west of France.

    Do these men appear physically closer to Northern Europeans or Mediterraneans? Of course there are swarthy French, but the same appearance amongst otherwise Nordish people can be found in England, the Netherlands, Norway, and elsewhere.

    French overwhealmingly are of Gallo-Romanic origin (blood), with some Germanic influence.
    According to you, wheras everything from history, to migration patterns, and so on suggests they are a primarily Celtic and Germanic group, with localized pockets of Romance blood.

    Supremely ignorant you are - so far I haven't read one reasonable post from you.
    Likewise, although you hail from an online home where ignorance permeates every word with your erroneous and laughable ideas of European nationalism and hatred of "outsiders". Before you scream ignorance again, keep one thing in mind; a native-born Englishman has more in common with an American of English ancestry than they do with a native-born Slovakian.

    The Frankish aristocracy dominated a while, but most people of France never were Germanics but Gallo-Romanics. There are small areas where Germanic settlers once settled down.
    The injection of Germanic blood provided by the migration of an entire Germanic tribe into a huge portion of the nation is one thing, without taking into consideration inter-marriage with Norse settlers who arrived later, and the Celts spanning the entire country thrown into the mix. Romance blood in the French is far outnumbered by Germanic and Celtic presence.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    French overwhealmingly are of Gallo-Romanic origin (blood), with some Germanic influence...

    The Frankish aristocracy dominated a while, but most people of France never were Germanics but Gallo-Romanics.
    First off, the Germanics ruled France for more than just "a while." The Merovingian Frankish dynasty lasted from the early 400s until 580. The Merovingian Franks followed from 580 until about 987. Finally, the Capetian Franks ruled from 987 until the French Revolution in 1789. So, in all that's about 1,400 years of Frankish rule, certainly more than a fleeting phenomena.

    Second, when estimating the Gallic input into the French gene pool, we must remember the level of decimation that they suffered under Caesar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    As many as a million people (probably 1 in 4 of the Gauls) died, another million were enslaved, 300 tribes were subjugated and 800 cities were destroyed during the Gallic Wars. The entire population of the city of Avaricum (Bourges) (40,000 in all) were slaughtered.[6] During Julius Caesar's campaign against the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland) approximately 60% of the tribe was destroyed, and another 20% was taken into slavery.
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    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    With all due respect, but Julius Caesar was renowned for exaggerating the numbers.
    It seemed to be a very Roman trait to beef up the numbers of the enemy.

    Indeed, in the battle of Watling Street, you had Tacitus quoting 100'000 Britons and Cassius Dio quoting over a 1/4 million fighting for Boudicca!

    I have always halved and then taken a third off every number given.
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  7. #17
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    France is a state which has subsumed varied peoples. It is partly why the French state is so centralised and prescriptive. "French" is a less useful ethnic term than "Danish" for example.

    How similar are Lille and Marseille for culture, temperament and race? It is common sense that North-eastern France is racially & culturally more Northern than the South bordering the Mediterranean. Same goes for Brittany sharing roots with the Cornish and British.

    I always thought of France as being not one thing or the other, but mostly Central & Southern European. Perhaps someone here can enlighten the forum as to where most French migration to the colonies originated from.

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    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    Perhaps someone here can enlighten the forum as to where most French migration to the colonies originated from.
    Man, this took me a long time to compile, so I hope you guys enjoy the fruits of my labor. Here's the deal; of the original 47 families that settled in Acadia based on the 1631 census, my genealogy springs from 30 of these. What follows is a break down of which families came from which regions of France based on my family's genealogy. These are not generalizations based on concentrations of names, rather this is where each family on the census migrated from:

    Normandie (Haute and Basse)
    There are eleven families from these regions: Cormier, Boudreaux, Aucoin, Breaux, d'Entremont, Robichaux, Brun, Pellerin, Comeau and Hebert



    Poitou-Charentes
    There are nine families from this region: Gaudet, Bourg, Gauterot, Le Blanc, Richard, Landry, Blanchard, Girouard and Savoie



    Bretagne
    There are two families from this region: Doucet and La Noue



    Aquitaine
    There are two families from this region: Petitpas and Bourgeois



    Pays de la Loire
    There are two families from this region: Thibodeau and Vincent



    Midi-Pyrénées
    There is one family from this region: Dugas



    Rhône-Alpes
    There is one family from this region: Martin



    Nord-Pas de Calais
    There is one family from this region: Pitre



    Centre
    There is one family from this region: Trahan



    Île-de-France
    There is one family from this region: de la Tour




    Note: the census information is sourced here
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    Senior Member Aptrgangr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Good thing I didn't make it.
    Of course it is true that Romance blood is present in French, but it is mostly isolated in the south of the nation.
    It's not only present, it overwhealms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Sources? Or is this more original Aptrgangr/Stirpes research? I've seen estimates of Negroid blood in the Portuguese as high as 30%, without taking into consideration input from Moors, Jewish Conversos, etc. It depends on where you're getting your information from, and whether or not the source is working under a hidden agenda.
    Where did you these numbers get from?
    Most moors were converted Spaniards anyway.
    You're always detecting hidden agendas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    It seems it's actually you that doesn't. You explicitly stated French people of wholly or predominantly Norse or Germanic descent aren't true, ethnic French. Pot that called the kettle back, perhaps? I shouldn't be surprised; if one attempts to diminsh the Germanic ancestry of the Germans, then they obviously won't support such in a far more disputed people.
    Two things happened:
    France was ruled by Frankish aristocrats for some years, but these had more a cultural than a genetical influence.
    France conquered German(ic) lands like Alsace, Lorraine and parts of Flanders.
    Who tries to diminish the Germanic ancestry of Germany? I just say it makes sense to add people to the meta-ethnic spectrum of Germanics without having been of pred. Germanic origin. It seems to me you accept anyone as Germanic who feels like to be one...
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Again, I have to ask if you're serious? The Magyars are the primary ancestors of the modern Hungarians, not just a small portion of their genetic stock. Ethnically, linguistically, and, in many ways, culturally, Hungarians are far closer to their Asiatic cousins than European groups which don't descend from Asian nomads. Your own argument, displayed quite clearly in your previous post, calls for the exclusion of certain ethnic and meta-ethnic groups who arrived comparatively late from standard nation identity. Then again, maybe this only applies when it compliments your argument.
    BS like the claim Finns were blonde Mongols...
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    So you're part French now as well? In addition to Irish and American? This is becoming more laughable, and more hypocritical, by the minute.
    Where did I say I was partly French? I never said this. My grandma had a scornful laugh for people claiming she was a Frenchwoman. She was Alamanni - and, for your amusement, partly Danish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Never, nor do I need to for a picture of the modern French, but I live in a country with a huge ethnic French populace. Here are two examples of French-Canadians whose ancestors do not originate from the Franco-German border areas:



    Stephane Dion, whose mother is a born and bred Parisian.



    Gilles Duceppe, with roots in the west of France.

    Do these men appear physically closer to Northern Europeans or Mediterraneans? Of course there are swarthy French, but the same appearance amongst otherwise Nordish people can be found in England, the Netherlands, Norway, and elsewhere.
    They are western-central Europeans. Of course these phenotypes can be found in these countries enumerated...
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    According to you, wheras everything from history, to migration patterns, and so on suggests they are a primarily Celtic and Germanic group, with localized pockets of Romance blood.
    Saw this map?
    Does this map mean Franks settled in the blue territory? It doesn't.
    And I even provided a link where it was clearly shown the people of the non-Germanic part of the Frankish empire spoke Old-French, a non-Germanic language, whereas the western... did so.
    There was a racial and cultural divide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    Likewise, although you hail from an online home where ignorance permeates every word with your erroneous and laughable ideas of European nationalism and hatred of "outsiders". Before you scream ignorance again, keep one thing in mind; a native-born Englishman has more in common with an American of English ancestry than they do with a native-born Slovakian.
    I just wonder why people having no real relation to Germanics are so interested in meddling in this affair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    The injection of Germanic blood provided by the migration of an entire Germanic tribe into a huge portion of the nation is one thing, without taking into consideration inter-marriage with Norse settlers who arrived later, and the Celts spanning the entire country thrown into the mix. Romance blood in the French is far outnumbered by Germanic and Celtic presence.
    There was no migration of a huge tribe - that's the point here. There was a ruling elite.
    Spain was host of Germnaic tribes settling there (Visigoths ...) - still it s no Germanic country. And never has been.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut
    First off, the Germanics ruled France for more than just "a while." The Merovingian Frankish dynasty lasted from the early 400s until 580. The Merovingian Franks followed from 580 until about 987. Finally, the Capetian Franks ruled from 987 until the French Revolution in 1789. So, in all that's about 1,400 years of Frankish rule, certainly more than a fleeting phenomena.

    Second, when estimating the Gallic input into the French gene pool, we must remember the level of decimation that they suffered under Caesar:
    An aristocracy ruling over natives does not make them the same ethnicity like their rulers.
    The Bourbons are kings of Spain until today - time to unblock Spanish IPs - no?
    France is no Germanic country, if ithad been, we would not call them Welsh/Welsche...[Celts]
    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.
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    Senior Member Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    It's not only present, it overwhealms.
    You're presenting your opinion as fact again. You have failed to provide any evidence it does, wheras history and common sense says otherwise.

    Where did you these numbers get from?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

    I believe I asked you the same question.

    Most moors were converted Spaniards anyway.
    Moors were Islamic Semites from North Africa, who were also likely to have a large degree of Negro blood (the numbers for Portugal and Sicily speak for themselves). They were not a lost tribe of Spaniards making their way home after a few centuries running around in Africa.

    You're always detecting hidden agendas.
    There's a great deal of them, it seems.

    Two things happened:
    France was ruled by Frankish aristocrats for some years, but these had more a cultural than a genetical influence.
    France conquered German(ic) lands like Alsace, Lorraine and parts of Flanders.
    Who tries to diminish the Germanic ancestry of Germany? I just say it makes sense to add people to the meta-ethnic spectrum of Germanics without having been of pred. Germanic origin. It seems to me you accept anyone as Germanic who feels like to be one...
    Who installed those Frankish aristocrats into power? Did they not bring legions of soldiers and commoners to conquer the land, build their empire, and populate the nation? Yes, they did, and it was this Germanic migration into France which inter-married with the indigenous populace. You're also completely ignoring the genetic contribution of the Normans and other Germanic tribes which migrated into the nation.

    BS like the claim Finns were blonde Mongols...
    Many are, and we've seen countless examples of "Nordic" Mongols; not all possess jet black hair or yellow complexions.

    Where did I say I was partly French? I never said this. My grandma had a scornful laugh for people claiming she was a Frenchwoman. She was Alamanni - and, for your amusement, partly Danish.
    So your grandmother is a Germanic Frenchwoman?

    They are western-central Europeans. Of course these phenotypes can be found in these countries enumerated...
    You asserted that French individuals from outside the "Germanic regions" would appear more Mediterranean, or at least visibly distinct, from their more Germanic countrymen. However, just two men of non-northeastern French ancestry have shown otherwise.

    Saw this map?
    Does this map mean Franks settled in the blue territory? It doesn't.
    And I even provided a link where it was clearly shown the people of the non-Germanic part of the Frankish empire spoke Old-French, a non-Germanic language, whereas the western... did so.
    There was a racial and cultural divide.
    So, as the various French kingdoms shifted and amalgamated, the Franks and their descendants never migrated to other parts of the nation? Neither did the Normans? How about the Alamanni? Yes, individuals of distinct meta-ethnicites remain in one place, and marry amongst one people, for all time.


    I'm sure there's one or two Germanic Frenchmen in or around Marseille right now.

    I just wonder why people having no real relation to Germanics are so interested in meddling in this affair.
    I know what you mean; why a forum exists where Slavs, Latins, and Balts are advising us on affairs pertinent to our group is beyond me.

    There was no migration of a huge tribe - that's the point here. There was a ruling elite. Spain was host of Germnaic tribes settling there (Visigoths ...) - still it s no Germanic country. And never has been.
    The Normans were a ruling elite in England subsequent to 1066, yet virtually every English (and indeed, British Isles) individual would be hard pressed to not have a few Norman ancestors present in their family history. The number which migrated with William the Conqueror was probably equal to, or even smaller than, the Frankish migration into France, yet they had a massive genetic impact on the indigenous peoples of Britain and Ireland. I've found more Normans than Brythons or Anglo-Saxons in my own lineage, for example, and my family originates from a highly Brythonic region.

    An aristocracy ruling over natives does not make them the same ethnicity like their rulers.
    The Bourbons are kings of Spain until today - time to unblock Spanish IPs - no?
    France is no Germanic country, if ithad been, we would not call them Welsh/Welsche...[Celts]
    See above.

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