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Thread: How Do You Feel About Psychedelic Drug Use?

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    You all ramble about spiritual insight and so on. You're not really open to any kind of discussion other than what is essentially a circle-jerk on these supposed 'benefits'. If I were an alcoholic, it'd be the same as if I convinced myself my alcoholism actually benefited me. No one would really be able to convince me otherwise if I'd conned myself into believing it was of spiritual significance.

    The worst part is that people who think this hold 'religious' beliefs that have no objective system of morality. You can just completely make up your own standards as you go along. And then it's not about a higher power, because the bar is set by the individual. It's ultimately pointless trying to convince anyone who thinks the trips caused by an unhealthy chemical reaction in his brain is a message from God.

    At the end of the day, history and personal experience is enough to say that drugs are an overwhelmingly negative influence on society, psychedelic or not. Industrious hard-working people who develop and advance our world do not engage in these frivolous activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    You all ramble about spiritual insight and so on. You're not really open to any kind of discussion other than what is essentially a circle-jerk on these supposed 'benefits'. If I were an alcoholic, it'd be the same as if I convinced myself my alcoholism actually benefited me. No one would really be able to convince me otherwise if I'd conned myself into believing it was of spiritual significance.
    While I am not pro-psychedelic use by any means, there is a qualitative difference between alcohol and psychedelics that doesn't invite compare. That said, there can be authentic spiritual insight from psychedelics, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread this is only useful for an initial insight:

    http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press.../07_11_06.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    At the end of the day, history and personal experience is enough to say that drugs are an overwhelmingly negative influence on society, psychedelic or not. Industrious hard-working people who develop and advance our world do not engage in these frivolous activities.
    I agree that the influence of drugs is overall negative and am myself against the use of intoxicants, but alcohol is a drug and two of the most successful civilizations in history (Western Europe and the Far East) were alcohol consuming cultures. The Indo-Aryan world is also a highly successful group of cultures which had not a small amount of cannabis consumption historically.

    That said, if someone does develop a spiritual attitude from the use of a substance such as psychedelics, then I wouldn't say it is entirely frivolous, especially since if one doesn't work on oneself spiritually in this life, even if one is greatly successful in all other areas, in the end one will leave this world empty handed and ultimately have achieved nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leliana View Post
    If you want to experience unknown layers of your consciousness with a moderate, harmless and non-addictive 'psychedelic' drug, try 300 to 600mg of Lyrica/Pregabaline.
    I have read about occasional signs of people reporting a form of physical dependence upon abruptly ending the use of the products. The idea behind recreational Pregabaline use is of course to mimick some of the effects of benzodiazepenes without having all the drawbacks.

    Personally I'd be careful about that with a new substance, and especially a prescription drug. When Heroine came out, it was marketed as a non-addictive derivate of Morphium and considered a 'safe Opioid'. Of course, we all know this isn't true and the easy availability contributed to its widespread use, and of course it wasn't pulled from German markets until 1978, even though Bayer AG was long making millions from its other invention, Aspirin.

    Mephedrone was a safe, legal high when it came out, too - and ended up implied in several deaths and banned within a few years. Not that the Jews who first synthesised it hadn't known long before...

    With Lyrica/Pregabalin you can save a lot of money as you don't need alcohol or a joint at all. About 600mg make up for three big beer and a moderate amount of grass.
    ...and whilst no one has had any adverse immediate health effects from Pregabaline, dual use with alcohol has been known to cause tachycardy and even coma. For each responsible user, there is always going to be ten irresponsible users that will dual-use with alcohol.

    (For me the fact a lot of recreational drug users are generally irresponsible in their consumption of the drug[s] of their choice reinforces my staunch belief that regulation - albeit hardly best administered by the current governement - of illegal drugs should be continued for as long as possible.

    Father Knows Best, and Father won't let his citizens poison themselves beyond reproach.

    When I go out, I take two Lyrica and have a great evening. And then I sleep well without any hangover on the next day.
    Drink Negers instead of wheat-beer, or drink glasses of water between shots. That'll kill the hangover too.

    That being said, all I need to have great evening out (they're become much rarer these days though, everyone's quicker in having kids!) is good company. It's been done before completely rat-arsed, and it's been done before sober as a judge.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    You all ramble about spiritual insight and so on. You're not really open to any kind of discussion other than what is essentially a circle-jerk on these supposed 'benefits'.
    Au contraire. I'm open to any discussion of psychedelics. In fact they are some of my favourite things to discuss.

    But for the discussion to continue you have to be able to add something to it. Outright rejection does not add much of anything. It is not a starting point for discussion, it's an end point. It closes down discussion.

    That's what the "Just say no" campaign was all about. Closing down discussion.

    However, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that for me at least there were benefits to taking psychedelic drugs and I have outlined those in my earlier posts.

    So far on this thread the sides are roughly split between those who have tried psychedelics and found at least some benefit in them and those who have not tried psychedelics and see no benefit in them. Which sides members do you think are on average more knowledgeable about psychedelics? Serious point.


    I'm not suggesting you or anyone take a psychedelic but if you have neither experienced psychedelics or studied them in detail then your knowledge of these drugs is only what you have gleaned from society. And a lot of it is urban myth, stories told by teenagers to impress their friends.

    I have used psychedelics and found them to be beneficial so if you want me or the others here who have also used them and found them beneficial to take your opinion seriously, you'll have to back your statements up with something more weighty than just your own opinion. Some scholarly reports perhaps.

    Otherwise you are just another naysayer with no experience and little or no knowledge of the subject.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    If I were an alcoholic, it'd be the same as if I convinced myself my alcoholism actually benefited me. No one would really be able to convince me otherwise if I'd conned myself into believing it was of spiritual significance.
    That statement shows that you don't know anything about psychedelics. Alcoholics have a measurably lower level of both physical and mental health than most non-alcoholics. The same cannot be said about the average psychedelics user. In fact if an alcoholic takes psychedelics they many times cut back on their alcohol intake or else quit altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    The worst part is that people who think this hold 'religious' beliefs that have no objective system of morality. You can just completely make up your own standards as you go along. And then it's not about a higher power, because the bar is set by the individual. It's ultimately pointless trying to convince anyone who thinks the trips caused by an unhealthy chemical reaction in his brain is a message from God.
    Well that's a whole other topic. Personally I don't believe there is a god as such, nor that psychedelics put one in touch with a higher power. What I believe is that they put you in touch with parts of you own mind that you don't usually have access to. And that they remove your ego from your thought process, which in turn allows you to see yourself as others see you.

    That is a valuable perspective to have on yourself, at least it is if you go on and make use of it in your life. Which really isn't that hard to do in small ways. You have opportunities to use what psychedelics have shown you every day of your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
    At the end of the day, history and personal experience is enough to say that drugs are an overwhelmingly negative influence on society, psychedelic or not. Industrious hard-working people who develop and advance our world do not engage in these frivolous activities.
    But you don't have personal experience of this. And "Drugs" is a mighty broad term... There are all sorts of drugs and they are taken for all sorts of reasons.
    But I challenge you to prove that all of the consequences are negative.

    Furthermore there are many industrious people who took psychedelics and found them useful. There are a few examples;

    “Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.”


    ― Steve Jobs

    There are others as well.

    Nobel prizing wining physicist Richard Feynman,

    Francis Crick the co-discoverer of DNA,

    Kary Mullis a nobel laureate in Chemistry.

    So LSD didn't harm their brains much.

    Buts that's just scientists. In the fields of music art and literature literally dozens of some of the most famous and creative people of he last 100 years have used psychedelics, and spoken positively about them.

    Psychedelics when used properly in the right amount and with the right intention really don't deserve the contempt in which you currently hold them.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    I have read about occasional signs of people reporting a form of physical dependence upon abruptly ending the use of the products. The idea behind recreational Pregabaline use is of course to mimick some of the effects of benzodiazepenes without having all the drawbacks.
    Oh yes, it creates a dependence for a certainty when used daily or at least quasi regularly. I forgot to add that in my prior post, meh. :/ But I'm not talking about regular usage, more like let's say every second month for a night out. It doesn't create dependency when used in a responsible manner.

    I had the joys of brief benzodiazepine usage in the 6-week test phase for my new job, with 'Alprazolam' to be exact, but I don't think the two meds can be compared. Benzodiazepines bring down the body and mind, they take fears away and relax but they don't have any propelling/energizing effect. They don't 'go forward', they bring you down instead. No party mood is the result but dizzyness, calmness and inactivity.

    It goes without saying that meds plus alcohol is always a vicious and potential dangerous combination! It has nothing to to with Pregabaline in particular, it's also debatable to use everyday trivial meds like e.g. Aspirine, Ibuprofen or Paracetmol with alcohol. Alcohol mutes the central nervous system and meds like Benzos or Pregabaline do the same so a combination could result in breathing arrest. And then alcohol amplifies the effects of meds in a unpredictable way.

    The effect of a high dosage of Pregabaline is seemingly that it inhibits the same receptors in the brain as alcohol and some other 'pushers', like the GABA receptors.
    Personally I'd be careful about that with a new substance, and especially a prescription drug.
    Yep, agreed! But again, I do think that I use it in a responsible way. The official package leaflet of Pregabaline speaks of a daily maximum dosage of 600 mg but in medical special cases it could be raised to 1200 mg.

    So my 'Going out, having fun' party dosage of max. 600 mg is not higher than the legal daily usage.

    Drink Negers instead of wheat-beer, or drink glasses of water between shots. That'll kill the hangover too.
    Oh I've tried all kinds of rotgut and beers, cocktails and longdrinks up and down the drink menu, I got too much of an expertise of their consequences the next day... Since I take Pregabaline I hadn't one single joint or a alcohol delirium. I save money and don't need to rely on other people's aid.

    I'm not thaaaat much of a party animal, I'm talking about two or three evenings every month or two. In winter more seldom than in the warm summer months.
    That being said, all I need to have great evening out (they're become much rarer these days though, everyone's quicker in having kids!) is good company. It's been done before completely rat-arsed, and it's been done before sober as a judge.
    The good times are over either way. Your old friends have other obligations, the new ones are not so close to you and you can't walk in a bar or club without groups of Asylrapefugees luring around in front of the entrance or inside. And the bars who keep out our 'precious refugees' and Turko-Arabs are often overcrowded. Damn, I think this summer will be the last one where you can go out without excessive worries. Next year we will all be fucked up, both in Germany and Austria btw.

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    http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandev...4-2016-17-21-2


    News: healthImperial College London
    HomeCollege and CampusScienceEngineeringHealthBusiness

    Search here...
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    The brain on LSD revealed: first scans show how the drug affects the brain
    by Kate Wighton
    11 April 2016
    main image
    The areas that contributed to vision were more active
    under LSD (right), which was linked to hallucinations


    Researchers from Imperial College London, working with the Beckley Foundation, have for the first time visualised the effects of LSD on the brain.

    In a series of experiments, scientists have gained a glimpse into how the psychedelic compound affects brain activity. The team administered LSD (Lysergic acid diethylamide) to 20 healthy volunteers in a specialist research centre and used various leading-edge and complementary brain scanning techniques to visualise how LSD alters the way the brain works.

    The findings, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), reveal what happens in the brain when people experience the complex visual hallucinations that are often associated with LSD state. They also shed light on the brain changes that underlie the profound altered state of consciousness the drug can produce.

    Scientists have waited 50 years for this moment - the revealing of how LSD alters our brain biology
    – Professor David Nutt
    Study author
    A major finding of the research is the discovery of what happens in the brain when people experience complex dreamlike hallucinations under LSD. Under normal conditions, information from our eyes is processed in a part of the brain at the back of the head called the visual cortex. However, when the volunteers took LSD, many additional brain areas - not just the visual cortex - contributed to visual processing.

    Dr Robin Carhart-Harris, from the Department of Medicine at Imperial, who led the research, explained: "We observed brain changes under LSD that suggested our volunteers were 'seeing with their eyes shut' - albeit they were seeing things from their imagination rather than from the outside world. We saw that many more areas of the brain than normal were contributing to visual processing under LSD - even though the volunteers' eyes were closed. Furthermore, the size of this effect correlated with volunteers' ratings of complex, dreamlike visions. "

    The study also revealed what happens in the brain when people report a fundamental change in the quality of their consciousness under LSD.

    Dr Carhart-Harris explained: "Normally our brain consists of independent networks that perform separate specialised functions, such as vision, movement and hearing - as well as more complex things like attention. However, under LSD the separateness of these networks breaks down and instead you see a more integrated or unified brain.

    "Our results suggest that this effect underlies the profound altered state of consciousness that people often describe during an LSD experience. It is also related to what people sometimes call 'ego-dissolution', which means the normal sense of self is broken down and replaced by a sense of reconnection with themselves, others and the natural world. This experience is sometimes framed in a religious or spiritual way - and seems to be associated with improvements in well-being after the drug's effects have subsided."

    This image shows how, with eyes-closed, much of more of the brain contributes to the visual experience under LSD than under placebo â?? and that the magnitude of this effect correlated with participantsâ?? reports of complex, dreamlike visions.








    This image shows how, with eyes-closed, much more of
    the brain contributes to the visual experience under
    LSD than under placebo. The magnitude of this effect
    correlated with participants reports of complex,
    dreamlike visions.

    Dr Carhart-Harris added: "Our brains become more constrained and compartmentalised as we develop from infancy into adulthood, and we may become more focused and rigid in our thinking as we mature. In many ways, the brain in the LSD state resembles the state our brains were in when we were infants: free and unconstrained. This also makes sense when we consider the hyper-emotional and imaginative nature of an infant's mind."

    In addition to these findings, research from the same group, part of the Beckley/Imperial Research Programme, revealed that listening to music while taking LSD triggered interesting changes in brain signalling that were associated with eyes-closed visions.

    In a study published in the journal European Neuropsychopharmacology, the researchers found altered visual cortex activity under the drug, and that the combination of LSD and music caused this region to receive more information from an area of the brain called the parahippocampus. The parahippocampus is involved in mental imagery and personal memory, and the more it communicated with the visual cortex, the more people reported experiencing complex visions, such as seeing scenes from their lives.

    PhD student Mendel Kaelen from the Department of Medicine at Imperial, who was lead author of the music paper, said: "This is the first time we have witnessed the interaction of a psychedelic compound and music with the brain's biology.

    The Beckley/Imperial Research Programme hope these collective findings may pave the way for these compounds being one day used to treat psychiatric disorders. They could be particularly useful in conditions where negative thought patterns have become entrenched, say the scientists, such as in depression or addiction.

    Mendel Kaelen added: "A major focus for future research is how we can use the knowledge gained from our current research to develop more effective therapeutic approaches for treatments such as depression; for example, music-listening and LSD may be a powerful therapeutic combination if provided in the right way."

    Professor David Nutt, the senior researcher on the study and Edmond J Safra Chair in Neuropsychopharmacology at Imperial, said: "Scientists have waited 50 years for this moment - the revealing of how LSD alters our brain biology. For the first time we can really see what's happening in the brain during the psychedelic state, and can better understand why LSD had such a profound impact on self-awareness in users and on music and art. This could have great implications for psychiatry, and helping patients overcome conditions such as depression."

    Amanda Feilding, Director of the Beckley Foundation, said: "We are finally unveiling the brain mechanisms underlying the potential of LSD, not only to heal, but also to deepen our understanding of consciousness itself."

    The research involved 20 healthy volunteers - each of whom received both LSD and placebo - and all of whom were deemed psychologically and physically healthy. All the volunteers had previously taken some type of psychedelic drug. During carefully controlled and supervised experiments in a specialist research centre, each volunteer received an injection of either 75 micrograms of LSD, or placebo. Their brains were then scanned using various techniques including fMRI and magnetoencephalography (MEG). These enabled the researchers to study activity within the whole of the brain by monitoring blood flow and electrical activity.

    -

    References:

    "Neural correlates of the LSD experience revealed by multimodal neuroimaging," by Robin L. Carhart-Harris et al., is published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 11 April 2016

    "LSD modulates music-induced imagery via changes in parahippocampal connectivity," by Mendel Kaelen et al. is published in the European Neuropsychopharmacology.

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    I disapprove of any kind of drug use. I speak from experience as my mother developed severe mental problems from such use. Aside from the many health and mental issues that can arise, I have no desire to mess around with my mind like that.

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    Thanks for digging that up renownedwolf it's very interesting. For the benefit of anyone who can't be bothered to click through to the original article, I've taken the liberty of leaching the images from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post

    The study also revealed what happens in the brain when people report a fundamental change in the quality of their consciousness under LSD.



    The image on the left shows normal brain activity as the highlighted area. The image on the right shows the extra activity caused by an LSD trip. [thg]

    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Englisc View Post
    I disapprove of any kind of drug use. I speak from experience as my mother developed severe mental problems from such use. Aside from the many health and mental issues that can arise, I have no desire to mess around with my mind like that.
    I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Psychedelics are certainly not for everyone.

    However, if psychedelic drugs actually caused severe mental illness, rather than than (as i believe) merely triggering it in individuals who were already destined to succumb to the illness, you would expect to have seen an increase in the numbers of people presenting with schizophrenia in countries like the U.S where use of psychedelics was common during the 60's and 70's.

    Instead, the rate of schizophrenia is fairly constant at around 1% of the population in all countries in the world. So it's doubtful if these drugs actually cause mental illness in those who are not destined to develop it at some point anyway.

    Obviously individuals who suspect they may be susceptible to schizophrenia or other sever mental illness, would still be advised to avoid these substances.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    We discuss drugs only as something physical, some chemical changes and you have funny experiences which are just like internal kino, like 3 D TV.

    But behind any drug is a spiritual entity which you invite. They might be beneficial or malevolent.

    They might be self-serving and invasive or healing and helpful.

    With drugs you lose control over yourself. For some it might sound good for me it is not so.

    I think the spiritual aspects is the more important one. The physical aspects recide after a time, the spiritual may or may not.

    As we are blind in that world you enter an area where you have no clue about.

    In general, in the ordinary consciousness you are mostly protected, though there are plenty of possessions most people even do not realize.

    In a good session with for example Ayahuasca you have a guardian assigned who protects the participants from attack.

    In ordinary drug use this is mostly not done, or even known how to do.

    Knowledge is also hidden from us, you have to fight for it, it is never given freely. To break the barrier you have to be some kind of warrior who does not give up on himself when he is plunged into the unknown. Many are not warrior types but people who want to escape the ordinary world because they do not get along with it.

    If you do not get along in this world, then certainly you will not get along in a more violent and difficult world outside the ordinary.

    When a hostile spirit takes over and settles inside you, they will influence and change your psychology. Their energy alone is changing you. If you think the change is beneficial think about whether you accomplished the change or it just so 'happened' to you. Any change should be your intend and caused by your efforts,

    Malevolent spirits cause change in your psychology which are then diagnosed as certain illnesses.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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