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Thread: Very Early Germans (for the Technically Inclined)

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    Post Very Early Germans (for the Technically Inclined)

    I don't know if this has been posted here before, but I know it will interest some of you. Several things have happened in European prehistory of late (one was the finding of a 30,000 year old grinding stone not too far from Florence - when for most of the rest of the history of the Italy, the earliest human cultural remains are much younger).

    But, there are far older sites near Kiev, Moscow and even Pskov. This is in keeping with the hypothesis that a northern Pontic route was the entry route for the first Europeans.

    Now, there is very old evidence from Germany and not just one bit of it - a substantial amount. For a long time, the oldest material from Germany was coming in at around 28,000BP, or it was Neanderthal. The linked article shows that Swabian artifacts may go as far back as 40,000BP:

    http://www.urgeschichte.uni-tuebinge...lus_JHE_03.pdf

    If this has already been posted here, I apologize for the repetition, but I think it a very interesting article. It's been well-accepted that by the Gravettian period (28-29,000BP) Swabia and other parts of what is now Germany or Austria was well-established but because no earlier culture was found, it was often said that either the Kievan/Crimean or the French population brought the Gravettian to Germany.

    Not so. Well developed cultural sequences, in situ, back to 40,000BP - making Swabia and the North Sea/Crimea corridors two of the early "culture pumps." (Not that southern France wasn't perking along nicely, but it is a little off the beaten path).

    It seems clear these three areas (North Sea/Crimea; Swabia; Loire Valley and southward) were in contact with each other throughout the period (and share similar physical characteristics; presumably the language they spoke was Proto-Boreal - at least, I think it should be called proto-Boreal and I think many European specialists agree that's the term that's going to be used).

    Proto-Boreal gave rise to many languages (and the North Sea people are going to turn to the East and become Altai people, etc), but the primary descendant of P-B is PIE.

    The article is not that recent (2002-3) but in standard textbooks on the peopling of Europe, even very recent ones, this data (since it's fairly new and somewhat scant) is often not included. Certainly, most historians don't grasp these newer archaeological findings and aren't usually trained to look in that direction. In fact, a lot of books are still using what they consider "very modern" dates that were achieved in the 1950's and early 1960's (because lots of scholars are really really old).

    Other nations with fewer findings (Georgia, I'm looking at you) make a Very Big Deal out of such findings, but since it's Germany, people in charge of archaeology are very sensitive about arousing any nationalistic pride.

    The article also gives a good chronology/summary of some of the Gravettian findings.

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    He starts with the presumption that there was a moving into that area without clearly stating that the argument for the moving in is the absence of modern human skeleton founds in that area.

    We also know today that modern white humans are the product of crossbreeding between Neanderthals and a human race which is not mentioned earlier (might be proto germanics or whatever, I haven't found a source for that).

    As it is sofar the earliest sign of art/civilization the assumption that the humans before didn't have it. Given the knowledge of the racial interbreeding one could also assume that the new product of the interbreeding is the source of the civilization.

    As the animals depicted were obviously not the ones they hunted it is to assume that they had magical/religious meaning. those finds are absent in Neanderthal artefacts (except a few showing fragments of what is believed to be flute and a cross on shell from about 100.000 BP which are clearly Neanderthal).

    In that one can assume that the new civilization there created those artefacts from a religious/magical background and that clearly indicates civilization. The lion-men (there are compelling arguments that it really is a lion-woman) shows a sophisticated symbology only to attribute to a higher form of religon/civilization as it contains evidence of abstract/symbolical thinking.

    As many of the artefacts contain the number 6 as well as 30 (pretty common in most religions ((6 rings of Stonehenge, 30 Gates, Jesus went into the temple at the age of 6 and started teaching with 30, the 6 pyramids of Gizeh ((3 big one, 3 small one)) Pharaos after 30 years in service got a special ceremony, Horus had 30 arrows in his quivver, same is with Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita, Shiva/Odin with 6 limbs ((and often with 30 flames on the rings)) in our own days we call a day Saturday, the day of saturn ((the 6th Planet, takes about 30 earthyear to make a turn around the sun)) and so and so on and so on) we can also assume that they created/possessed the original religion, the mother of all religions we know today.

    It seems sofar as Southern Germany was the cradle of modern religious men and thus of all civilizations which followed. They have been the real Titans of human history.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    He argues that the civilization was founded because of external changes as the beginning of an iceage and the competition between modern humans and neanderthals.

    That does not make sense to me, in case it would be so it might have been repeated somewhere else and as the different races lived for 100.000 years beside each other, it never happened before.

    Therefore I would argue that the developing of the civilization is an inherent feature of the people who lived there.Of course it would be political incorrect to say it has been germanic people they have to invent different names to obscure the fact.

    For my understanding germanics have always been on the forefront of civilization and religion.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    At present there is no evidence for the coexistence
    between Neanderthals and modern humans
    in Swabia, and no interstratification of Middle
    Paleolithic and Aurignacian finds has ever
    been reported in the region. At sites including
    Vogelherd, Hohlenstein-Stadel, Sirgenstein and
    Geißenklo¨ sterle, a sterile deposit often separates
    the uppermost Middle Paleolithic layers from the
    deepest Aurignacian deposits. Nevertheless, we
    continue to view at least short-term coexistence
    and interaction between Neanderthals and
    modern humans as probab
    Here he admits that his thesis is on shaky grounds. It is more reasonable to assume white people (germanic people) are as a race inclined to creating civilization and religion and thus are the most advanced human race on earth (hated for their abilities by every other race).

    The poor professor is simply not allowed to see it this way (though he does excellent research and is honest enough to put it on the table) and thus he has to come up with a political correct opinion.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    it is simply the old communist version that men is the product of his environment.

    Any inner independence and abilities (esp. racial) is anathema to those people.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Oh, the authors definitely know their theory is on shakey grounds when attempting to explain why art, music and other features of what will eventually be called civilization seem to only arise in one place at such an early time (personally, I do not believe the Phoenicians "invented" the alphabet at all - it was in use in Europe and the Phoenicians - who may well have been Indo-Europeans, although that is heresy to say in academia - simply exported the highly efficient phonetic system around the Mediterranean, thereby coming to the attention of non-European).

    Europeanists (including scholars who actually believe that Europe is the cradle of world civilization) keep on the down low in academia, due mostly to fear of being accused of either Eurocentrism or Nazism.

    You cannot have a career in academia if you appear in any way to prefer European ways (unless you are actually at a European university and even then...)

    Anyway, by 28.000 BP Swabia and the Aachen area are two nodal points out of several European points that are "culture pumps." When petroglyphs show up in North Africa at 28,000 (4,000-5,000 years later than in Europe), I believe they difused from Europe to Africa. It took even longer for this form of art/communication to reach sub-Saharan Africa.

    Europeans were not into the domestication of goats and sheep or grass as early as their Middle Eastern neighbors, and had a much freer, more mobile lifestyle (went further in their daily travels, encountered more materials, made use of a wider range of materials, etc.)

    Since this is an article by archaeologists and paleontologists (and not geneticists), they are certainly not going to make any claims whatsoever about genetic changes that might have facilitated the growth of these customs in Europe.

    However, everyone on the biological side now agrees there have been local specialized mutations that difuse outward from their origin because of their crucial power in updating survival skills; Symbolic Man appears first in Europe and although hardly anyone will say it, there's likely a set of mutations that facilitate symbol use, writing, mathematics, etc.

    In my view, the Sumerians were Indo-Europeans (poor Indo-Europeans, on the outer edges of European society, in dire straights when they took to domesticating goats and sheep in the Zagroz Mountains). Perhaps PIE speakers would be a better term, but I think there's been way too much said about the evolution of PIE and not enough said about its long continuity in Europe.

    Bottom line is that some people try to sell the idea that several completely different waves of Europeans came into Europe, so that modern Europeans are merely recent squatters on land held formerly by others. That's completely wrong.

    The first modern humans in Europe still have descendants there. As to Neanderthal lineage, it is indeed possible that the process of demelanization was aided by interbreeding with them - can't be ruled out. But the changes to Cro Magnon brains in terms of symbol use, artistic ability (they certainly had perspective - and a variety of techniques in which to render their art - before anyone else did). Long before, actually.

    Europe is called by one archaeologist a veritable "art factory" at 28,000BP, with more art found at each habitation site throughout what is usually called Europe (no one living in Spain or Italy or Greece yet) than in the rest of the world put together, for that time period.

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    the spread of their culture to the north-african area was also easier because of the Ice-Age the water level was about 180 m below that what it is now. As the strait of Gibraltar is about the same level deep there seem to have not been much influx of water from the Atlantik, thus one can expect the level of water was by far lower than today which means the crossing into northern Africa was fairly easy.

    also connect that with the spread of the cro-magnon race. It was on the northern african Atlantic coast, the spaniards and the french coastlines and from there always eastward.

    The signature of that race is also found in northern Africa which as that time was a fertile area.

    There is also the question why suddenly there was a high developement of art/culture and religion in southern Germany.

    If people brought it with them, coming from other places why is that not be found on their immigration routes? Obviously there is none though later they spread into southern France/northern Spain/northern Italy so the source of that culture was southern Germany.

    What happened there that a distinct and for that time a highly developed culture obviously appeared out of nowhere. Cro-Magnon was older than the development in southern Germany, so what exactly happened there?

    The article shows there have been overlayed strata with Cro-magnon and Neanderthal who 'simultaneously' used those caves. That is why I think that there has been an interbreeding.

    We know that Neanderthaler humans have not been the brutes as they are depicted. they had developed religion (burials with items suggest a belief in an afterlife), there are finds which suggest they had flutes and as such music, they had simple symbolism like the cross from Tara, Hungary and some artefacts which seemed to be art.

    Neanderthaler had a much bigger brain than modern people (intelligence has only indirectly to do with brain-size, it depends mostly on the synapsis) and way more robust muscular body (the daily intake had to be around 5,000 calories) and they were hunting big game, they had no gender-specific roles and they were extremely conservative and hardly changed things over the 400,000 years of existence. Their numbers were small, the biggest number of Neanderthales living at the same time does not exceed 20,000 individuals.

    Them getting isolated into pockets of small groups with no exchange to other Neanderthales might have led to interbreeding between the human races.

    It seems that the cross-breed had high advantages, big brain, robust body, creativity, mobility and thus most likely a higher rate of offsprings. My assumption is that this cross-breed is responsible for an extraordinary advancement of culture.

    It is a you would find a modern Mercedes 500 SEL driving in Palestine at Jesus's Birth. The culture came suddenly only visible developlement, it just appeared fully developed like a 'bang' and it was there, complete without developement.

    We find those things in History like the cathedral in chartres, the pyramides etc. It is most likely because of extraordinary people with an amazing capability to jump far ahead culturally/technologically.

    So we don't know who was responsible for that advancement as there are no human remains connected to it (why not?).

    I guess we have to wait for some honest DNA test of human remains from before and after that developement and see how that changed.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Well, I think every anthropologist agrees that it was "Cro Magnon" style (i.e., European-looking) people in Germany and in the other two culture regions.

    I have a reconstruction of a 30-32,000 year old skull from Europe done by a German sculptor/anthropologist about 1958. When I first started university, that particularly reconstruction was seen everywhere (but they are not seen these days; actual facial reconstructions seem to have disappeared - as they are not politically correct, I suppose, or for some other reason).

    When they threw them out at a college where I later taught, I kept them (so glad I did). But, if this Cro Magnon (who is quite a nice looking fellow, actually) were to enter the Skadi forum, he would be classified somewhere on the Nordic/Germanic/Atlantid scale (I should take a picture of him).

    Neanderthals look a little different (where I see people, currently, who look a bit more Neanderthal is in England - including some pictures of my own ancestors on my mother's side; more robust than is currently considered "attractive," but certainly the hypothesis that cross-breeding in Europe (or something else - such as self-selection for inventive people) should be entertained.

    But no such hypotheses will be broadly entertained when the main goal of undergraduate education is to inform everyone that we are all part of one family (we are) and there are no differences (there are differences, just as there would be with any family).

    The actual honest discussion of the differences among the existing branches of the human family will not take place in university classrooms, I don't think, within my lifetime. Even talk about nose size (and textbook chapters on cold vs. tropical adaptation) are downplayed or missing from current Bio Anthropology introductory courses which are usually the most that any college student will learn about the subject.

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