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Thread: Folkish Christianity

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    does anyone know a good book or some source about the influence of heathenism on to the christian belief?

    As the christian belief got heavily modified through heathenism and there has been beliefs/wisdom which have been shared between the two religions and then there is the tricky part where do they disagree?

    I think, at this point, there is a decision to make, where a christian wants to go.

    Mind you, that christianity today is heavily modified by the Jews of the NWO who try to mislead christians into defending them and serving them as their slaves (aka Zionism in the christian churches, (for ex. Mormon church)).
    Mormon leaders on "Zionism":
    http://latterdaycommentary.com/blog/...mons-zionists/

    Actually, Mormons are pretty neutral towards so-called "Zionism" at best. They call their lands of promise "Zion" because it means "Pure of heart" and predates any person going by the moniker "Jew". BTW, Mormons believe Native Americans and Polynesians are Israelites too. Of course the Book of Mormon describes them as indisguishable racially from people like Columbus and George Washington, but there is definitely enough self-hate to go around that many whiter-than-white Germanic Mormons believe that red and brown Northeast Asian "Native" Americans have more claim to Israel than they do, just because they live in so-called "Book of Mormon lands". My personal opinion is that the Jaredites (another, pre-Israelite, east Asiatic group) are the main source of the current natives. They followed a course described as similar to that of secular theories on Native American migration, but used primitive wooden submarines instead of a land bridge to get across the narrow northern strait.

    Yes, some are Zionists is used by the mainstream (ie Jewish Zionism), but it wasn't what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young set out for. I think the only "Jew" Joseph Smith had to do with was a rabbi to help him with translating Biblical Hebrew, and I have studied his history quite a bit. We are dealing with some farmers from upstate New York and New England here, not people from urban NYC or Philadelphia. They probably met less actual Talmudic Jews than they could count on both hands (okay maybe that's an exaggeration). They dealt with WASPs, WASPs, and more WASPs, making them WASMs by conversion. A lot of what he says about them in his personal records can go either way. Some parts of the Book of Mormon call them the chosen people, but others say they are sinners with a corrupt culture and even the early Nephites who had just escaped did not teach their children of the corrupt practices they were exposed to.

    The correct Mormon view on latter day gathering is that there will be two Jerusalems, one at Mt. Moriah/Salem (ie Jerusalem in it's Jebusite name) - the ancient crossroads of the old world - and the other in the modern Jackson Co., MO. The American Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be a city of grandeur and modeled after the great European cities like Paris and London (directly taken from a quote of an early church leader), and will be for Ephraim and the lost Ten Tribes, as well as any "Gentiles" that convert. The old Jerusalem will be the 2nd world capital and given to those descended from the true kingdom of Judah.

    Do not confuse Mormonism's view of "world capitals" with Globalism. Globalism and Zionism seek to destroy national sovereignty, while the God(s) that came down to Bab-el (what false "Zionism" truly is a reboot of) separated the nations and gave them all sovereignty. Most of the teaching about two Jerusalems is supported by the Old Testament and New Testament. Right now Mormons believe themselves to be the ones set up in the "tops of the Mountains" (book of Isaiah) "exalted above the hills". Mormons have interpreted most of the Old Testament to ways Jews probably never imagined. And the temple thing is something unique to Mormonism. What's a Jewish temple? Some place anyone can go inside if they have a friend that is getting married. Not even some Mormons get to go inside Mormon Temples.

    Mormons didn't get their religion from Jews. They got it from Gods and angels. I still believe this. A genuine article from the source can easily be confused with a passed-down attempt to propagate something ancients once knew. Just look at the cargo cults and their attempts to copy early 20th century aircraft, while 1st world countries (the gods in this analogy) produce working ones far better than the ones the cults propagate. We're dealing with advanced civilization / intelligence here. That's all it is. Make more or less of it than that, call it "religion" or "superstition", but it is what it is. Beings that live beyond our brief 100 year terms, and have technology that makes a stealth bomber or supercomputer look like a stone-age arrowhead or wooden club.

    However, there is plenty of humanity to go around and screw it up. That's how the knowledge of the Gods was lost before. So be it. Gods can come down and restore it again and again, until they see fit to settle here permanently again. This is the real message of the Bible (and any other scripture), not that of a sneaky desert tribe trying to steal your money and destroy your country. This is a pretty short-sighted view that only cares about day-to-day life in the here and now. If it were all up to us, this world would be toast a thousand times over by now. Humans need to evolve to the level where they can bear the presence of beings that are their senior in the development of intelligent life in the universe (we're talking billions x billions of stars here).

    My view on Mormonism and Christianity are not tied to the mainstream though. I don't express a lot of my views. They go beyond "milk" and "meat", and I wouldn't be surprised if some of my views would get me ex-communicated (I still think plural marriage is on hold). I also branch out into old mystic and pagan religions, trying to learn what I can of my ancestors' beliefs. To me Christ merely represents the Gods reaching out to mortals to "upgrade" humans to something more. Other spiritual questions still need answering, and I find Mormonism focuses on certain things and leaves out others.

    In my view, they handle what they cover well, but something tells me they are no better than Catholicism when it comes to leaving whole chunks of truth out. What does Mormonism have to say about things taught in Buddhism or Gnosticism, for example? (I know some Mormons will say it's all of the Devil...) What about the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi, or the Vedas or the Eddas? I think spirituality is too wide a subject for one "religion" to cover completely.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    does anyone know a good book or some source about the influence of heathenism on to the christian belief?
    This may be of some use to you. I haven't purchased it yet because I lack the funds, so I can't vouch for it. Looks intriguing enough.

    http://www.amazon.com/Germanization-...6628834&sr=8-1

  3. #33
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    Folkish Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgard View Post
    I agree it needs a fresh start but I would like I a breakaway ordained minister/priest from a Catholic Church (Church of England, Roman Catholic and Orthodoxes). This is necessaries as you get the spiritual transmission down the line form Jesus and such things have more power than people like to think.

    I totally agree about moving with Science. I do not think the world was made in 7 days, however I think we need to keep some rules like no homosexual ministers/priests. I don't think the priests should be celibate. That was a medieval innovation from Rome. It should be genuine Christianity but pure and in keeping with the Volk.

    I agree we could move to a more personal spirituality as I have found Christianity can be very authoritarian and neglect personal spirituality.
    Yes, it would be good to have ordained Priests with a genuine apostolic succession. Personally, I like the idea of a branch of Anglicanism that looks back to not just the pre-conquest Anglo Saxon Church, but to the pre-Roman British Church. There is a lot of milage in this, at least for english/british people.

    But this is not for everyone. Some people will have their own national religious traditions, Lutheran for instance. Others, will not accept priesthood in the way we have just referred to - the Reformed traditions for instance. Yet, they can play a huge role in developing folkish Christianity.

    Maybe what we need first of all is an umbrella group that simply strives to encourage the development of Germanic folkish Christianity without being too prescriptive as to what that is. That way, people can engage and develop the tradition be they Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Morman or whatever. I still like the idea of a new religious tradition as I can see problems for people sticking their necks out within the established Churches.

    I agree with you on the issue of homosexual priests and celebacy in the priesthood.

  4. #34
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    Folkish Christianity

    Picking up the issue over the role of the old Gods and the Elves, the Bible does offer support for the idea of national or folk gods. In Genesis 1:26, we read; "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Whilst some commentators explain this reference to God in the plural as a language device to emphasise His majesty, others (and more plausibly in my view) explain it as a ‘conversation’ between God and the heavenly assembly of celestial beings who helped in the creation.

    This interpretation is reinforced in Deuteronomy 32.8-9:

    “When the Most High gave the nations each their heritage, when he portioned out the human race, he assigned the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the sons (or angels) of God, but Yahweh’s portion was his people, Jacob was to be the measure of His inheritance.”

    And in Psalm 82;
    “God takes his stand in the divine assembly, surrounded by the gods he gives judgement.” 82:1

    And in Psalm 89: 7,
    “God, awesome in the assembly of the holy ones, great and dreaded among all who surround him.”

    And of course, in the first commandment (to the Israelites); “ I am the Lord thy God (Yahweh), thou shalt have no other gods but me (or to rival me)”.

    It seems to me that the early Hebrews accepted the existence of other national gods and may originally have recognised some of them as their own. But they saw their national god Yahweh as superior to all other gods. Over time, they came to see Yahweh as the one true God. But Jews today, do not necessarily dispute the existence of other national gods for other peoples. Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain, got into trouble on this point a few years ago in a book called ‘The Dignity of Difference’. In the first edition of this book, which he was forced to recall and amend, he suggested that other religions and national gods were valid paths to non Jews.

    I believe that the ancient Hebrews came to see their national god, Yahweh, as being synonymous with the divine wholeness I call Allfather (the Most High or AllRuler) much in the way our ancestors associated Tyr and then Odin with Him. Tribal gods are a window to Allfather and so in some respects it is understandable that various nations equate their main tribal god with Him. But they are not the same – maybe just the closest many peoples get to Him.

    In Christianity, we have the added revelation of Allfather God being born into our world as Jesus. We should see this as complementing the role (especially the pre-incarnation role) of our national or folk gods – rather than rendering them redundant.

    Thus, our ancient gods and goddesses would fulfil a role similar to the Devas of Hinduism and Buddhism. More than Angels in the strict meaning of that word – though this is perhaps a term most of our folk readily understand. Tolkein's epic describes something similar.

    Our folk gods and goddesses are not and should not be confused with the fallen angels – though we should recognise that some of them do fit into that mythology – Loki for instance. The two traditions (Christian and Heathen) cannot be precisely fitted together as they derive from different traditions/cultures. What we have here though is a common myth that teaches of a cosmic battle between those who are loyal to Allfather God and those who are disobedient to Him – the fallen ones. This myth lies at the heart of ancient Aryan religion and in modern Heathenry and Odinism. The cosmic battle between the forces of good (the gods) and those of chaos (the eotens) is much the same in essence as that of the Old Testament which teaches of the battle between God (and his loyal angels) and the fallen angels loyal to Satan. And in both cases, this cosmic battle is also being fought here and now in our own physical world.

    I do believe that in this mythos, we have the basis for a Germanic folkish Christianity – one that teaches us humans to take the side of Allfather and the folk gods and to help them in that battle here on earth.

    Folks may find the following link useful – and it includes downloads for two short podcasts on the subject.

    http://experimentaltheology.blogspot...angels-of.html

  5. #35
    Senior Member Edgard's Avatar
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    1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
    Genesis 6:1-8

    This is in line with what you were saying above. Even Beowulf is written to fit in with a Folkish Christian world.

  6. #36
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    It seems to me that what you are trying to achieve is nothing but traditional Christianity. Western Religion (i.e. Christianity) has always been the marriage of Germanic ethos and Greek nomos. The spirit of Christianity is already fundamentally Germanic - monasticism is an expression of the Odinnic Quest for knowledge and Truth, chivalry the old Germanic warrior ethos in service of both Lord and the Church. The Warrior Christ may have been a short-lived notion, but that is only because superior expressions of the Old Culture were preserved in other ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    What is Folkish Christianity?
    Folkish Christanity is not a new Christian denomination. It is not a revolutionary re-interpretation of the Bible. It is not a ‘creative’ effort to prove the Germanic people are the chosen people. It does not conflict with general Christian doctrine. It is best understood as a philosophical and artistic movement within the general Christian-Germanic population. One can be a folkish catholic, a folkish protestant or a folkish orthodox christian.
    What is "general Christian doctrine"? What is recognised as dogma? If a philosophy applies to all forms of Christianity, is it really taking into account the fundamentals of Christianity, or is it what has been called "Christianism"? I think these are worth questioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    The aim of Folkish Christianity is to restrengthen ethnic identity under the banner of Christianity, i.e. to re-establish the integral and cohesive Christian-Germanic nation.
    What is the "Christian-Germanic nation"? What of the over-arching influence that Germanic culture and Christian theology have had on shaping the identity of Western Civilisation as a whole? Does this conflict with or complement your cultural theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    Christianity was never here to replace or abolish ethnic, native culture. On the contrary, Christianity assumes existing ethnic, native culture. It is like the crown upon it and the cloak around it. It is the bridge between the particulars of place, time and blood on the one hand, and the universal truth and love of God on the other hand. There is mere Christianity, i.e. the gospel, yet there is no such thing as a mere Christian. We are christianised Germanics, we are sanctified heathens.
    Christianity claims to be the final religion - it is a fulfilment of all religions; God is a Totality and a Whole: He is The All. Therefore, when you speak of "ethnic, native culture", would you say that Christianity in the Coloured World is equally legitimate to European Christianity? If so, to what extent does Christianity shape and influence culture, and to what extent is Christianity itself shaped and influenced? Can we speak of a "shaped" or "influenced" Christianity, when it is meant to be an Ultimate Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    What is needed for Folkish Christianity?
    It is essential that we write a Christian narrative covering the time between the beginning of creation and the present from the perspective of the Germanic peoples and their Indo-European predecessors. We might for example mention the original Proto-Indo-European pantheon, which according to our ancestors was presided by *Diḗus Ph2tḗr, whose name literally and remarkably meant ‘God the Father’ or ‘Sky-Father’, and whom we find demoted in North-Germanic tradition to a status of secondary importance, in the form of Týr. We might say how Woden was imputed with qualities that were originally and verily those of *Diḗus Ph2tḗr, such as the title ‘Allfather’ and his self-sacrifice to the betterment of man. Thus we might imagine the following course:
    Now here's a question: how is this not in conflict with the present Christian doctrine? What you are talking about here is re-writing the Christian mythos and possibly questioning the authority of the Old Testament. If Christianity has not overcome the failures of the Hebrews to be the Light of Nations, why was Christ necessary? What is the role that the Christ plays, and why is the incarnation of the λογος necessary? These are questions that require answers before we can begin talking about anything you've mentioned above.

    Also, you write as if you view the Creation and the Fall as historical events. Is this a general Christian doctrine? The Roman Catholic Church does not recognise the historicity of the Fall as expressed literally in the Hebrew Scriptures. There seems to be a failure on the part of your theory to account for the difference between myth and history - the role of the Creation myth teaches us something about man's relationship with God and man's relationship with himself. The essence of The Fall is not as a historical, literal event, but in what it is saying about human beings as spiritual creatures. What does the myth of the Fall say about humanity that, for example, the myth of Prometheus does not? What do the similarities between the myths say, if anything? Can there truly be "comparative religion" when Christianity claims to be an Ultimate Religion? Can there be an Ultimate Religion when one refuses to recognise the failures of tribal religion?


    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To create and uphold strong Christian-Germanic icons and timeless imagery. E.g. the warrior with the inverted sword raised as a cross, the cross decorated with runes, the maid who is pure like Mary, whom was known by Germanics as 'the Beloved' in heathen times, etc.
    What you are talking about here is the artificial creation of symbols. It seems to me that this could present you with a problem: symbols that do not arise naturally have no meaning, they represent a facade. What of the already-existing Germanic symbols of Christianity? Do we need new symbols?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To germanise Christian phrases and literature. E.g. titles for God, names for angels, stories rewritten in alliterative verse (think of the Old Saxon Heliand), etc. Luckily the missionaries already used a lot of native Germanic words to describe Christian concepts. E.g. God, sin, heaven, hell, etc.
    Does alliterative verse actually mean anything any more? Also, why are other forms of poetry not Germanic? The French are a Germanic people, even if their language is heavily influenced by Latin. There is no denying their origin among the Franks, and that Frankish poetry was not necessarily the alliterative poetry popular among the Anglo-Saxons. Do Christians need old Jewish concepts like angels or new titles for God? Why does God need titles, when He has revealed Himself to us as Himself: The Almighty, The One, The Ultimate: "I AM", which is a poor way of saying ὁ ὢν, which is better brought into English from both Hebrew and Greek as "The Being" - a concept we see repeated in Revelation, which God is spoken of as Alpha and Omega (literally "that which was" and "that which has yet to be"). "The Self-Existent" is perhaps the best understanding we can have. Why, though, does the Self-Existent One need titles like were given to the heathen gods? Why call him "Lord of Hosts" or "All-Father" when in reality He is both all and none of these things? He is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To see if we can further fit elements of ancient Germanic mythology into a Christian framework. E.g.: Where do the elves fit in? Is there a Christian case for the sacred forest?
    Again, we seem to be trying to justify an out-dated mythos that is now unnecessary to identity, and in fact corrupts and interferes with Christianity. The Germanic ethos yet survives in Christianity, why do we need to preserve a heathen mythos to have a "Folkish" Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To exhibit past Germanic influences on Christianity. E.g. Western praying style, important Christian Germanics, Germanic church-architecture, etc.
    There is no "past Germanic influence" on Christianity: Germanic Christianity is alive and well in the practises of monastic living and chivalry, as well as in the pre-Vatican styles of worship laid out by the Council of Trent and earlier forms. Germanic Church-architecture? What is this, if I may ask? I do hope you don't believe that only the stave-churches of the North are Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To present a biblically sound case for ethnic nationalism.
    Why do you need one? God makes no declaration for or against the ethnic nation: it is below Him. This sounds like you are looking for justification for your political beliefs rather than seeking a means by which you can bring your culture together with your religion. God does not justify politics - Christ made that explicitly clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To work in harmony with neopagan Germanics.
    Not that I protest, since I do this myself, but what justification does it have? If we are Christians, our goal is to bring those still attached to the dead tribal religions into Christianity, and to show them that even their own religion leads only to the Ultimate Truth of God.

    All this is not to say I don't endorse this project of yours, but I do think that what I've said is worth consideration. We need to justify any such project fully and completely before tampering with ancient traditions or trying to invent new ones.
    οὐκ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογεῖν σοφόν ἐστιν ἓν πάντα εἶναί.
    Heraclitus

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    I am a folkish Christian on a cultural level, but on the other hand... The thing Christ says is mind over matter, through the Commandments, first to love God, and second to love mankind. Soul over flesh, and so no nation has a monopoly on perfect beliefs. This is no offence to local sentiments in the form of Paganism, unless we are prepared to pretend we are know-it-alls, filled with the conceit unbecoming of those in tune with the Holy Spirit.

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    I think Christianity should not be reduced to one nation's customs and traditions, but be universal for all humanity. It's fine to have differences, but I think those are more important for political and economic issues.

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