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Thread: 'Religion to Become Extinct'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Secondly, no one except a fringe element of society will take heathenism seriously, ...
    I guess that was the same with Christianity once. The masses just imitate anyways, you need only a few who take it seriously, those who are at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Without Christianity there would be no Western civilization, nor any incentive for the various European ethnicities and cultures to unite against foreign incursions throughout history.
    A mere unsubstantiated claim. There have been countless of incentives for alliances against common foes apart from religion, and who can say what we had gotten instead of "Western civilization" wouldn't have been better?
    Historical guess work should stay out of this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Yeah, those constitutions really did a whole lot to end bloodshed. Nevermind that the greatest inter-European bloodshed and destruction occurred in our modern, secular era--that being the Great War and World War II.
    velvet said "Europe-wide", Germany got its American dictated French-spirited constitution only after WW2.
    However, I don't agree with her either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I think the fact that Christianity has become corrupted and its modern adherents, much like their atheists counterparts, support universality and cultural relativism is not because of Christianity itself, but because of modern, post-Enlightenment values and beliefs being transplanted onto Christianity and society as a whole.
    Can you name a specific example of a corruption of Christian views? Like "before" and "after"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    As for religion not being a binding factor, from about the 9th century to the early 18th century Christianity was the major binding factor and civilization of Europe. Religion continues to be a binding factor in the non-European world to this day.
    You understand this is no argument, this is just the repetition of a claim.
    There are various reasons for bonding, religion itself is none, although it can carry those reasons in itself (e.g. symbolism like the cross), they have to be specifically utilized though.
    The proof for this assertion is the already established empiricism that Christians fight Christians at least as much as they fight non-Christians.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Without Christianity there would be no Western civilization, nor any incentive for the various European ethnicities and cultures to unite against foreign incursions throughout history.
    This is totally bullshit statement. Western Civilization wouldn't exist without heritage and achievements of the Ancient Greece, which christians later acquired and presented as theirs. You seem deliberately ignoring fact that before christianity existed advanced graeco-roman world, which was de facto "western civilization" and gave birth to all great ideas of the West. Christianity is only another chapter in the history of western civilization, and is a subject of many controversies - mainly becouse of its un-western origin.

    Christianity without greek philosophy, science and literature, roman law and art is NOTHING. It is then intelectually limited to a gang of jews telling themselves some desert fairy tales.

    Your deliberate manipulation of historical facts and blind devotion makes me wonder sometimes, if you're some catholic priest or pastor who's job is, to defend his parasitic institution from a rightful demise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Most spiritual systems have a belief in God, be it a theistic, deistic, or impersonal panentheistic conceptualization of God, so how is God the antithesis to spiritualism? That's like me saying the sun is the antithesis to daylight. Christianity can provide a spiritual environment and has done so in the West for centuries, and continues to do so for many people.
    Just because many people believe in something, doesnt mean that it is truth, and even less 'the' truth.

    Millions of people today believe in the multicultural society, they believe in the holohoax, and a reasonable number believe that steaks come from the supermarket.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Problem with this is any attempt to re-create heathenism in a modern era would be a reconstruction, and hence an entirely new spiritual system altogether and would only superficially resemble the heathenism of the past.
    You say that as if that would be automatically a bad thing. This however is not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Secondly, no one except a fringe element of society will take heathenism seriously, I'd say we would have a better chance at revitalizing Christianity and removing its lesser, corrupted, and anti-intellectual elements than ever seeing a Europe converting en masse to heathenism.
    As Jäger pointed out correctly, it is enough when a reasonable number of people take it serious, which is already the case and the numbers are growing too.

    And I must ask the question as well, name its "lesser, corrupted and anti-intellectual elements" and dont forget to explain what then remains from Christianity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Actually I'd say there would be a greater chance of Europe becoming Buddhist or Islamic rather than heathen, and both of those religions are far more foreign to Western identity than Christianity.
    You forget that Christianity has been on the very same level alien to Europe, and it remained that alien until Luther translated the bible in the 15th century. Until then there was absolutely no difference in the alienness of Islam and Christianity, and the level of alienness only decreased very slowly and more often than not, against the will of the church.


    The "Western Identity" moved to America as the heir of the Roman Empire and the later HRE.

    The fight for this "western identity" left Europe a burnt ground. I cannot and dont want to speak for America, keep your Western Identity, keep Christianity if you want, but Americans need to realise that the world is a different one in Europe, and that this topic cannot be answered by Americans for Europe, that there is no single answer from both entities to this question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Yeah, those constitutions really did a whole lot to end bloodshed. Nevermind that the greatest inter-European bloodshed and destruction occurred in our modern, secular era--that being the Great War and World War II.
    I said "more or less", I didnt claim that there have been no wars. I just say that one (of many) of the main driving forces for war, the church, lost influence. This of course is no guarantee for no wars, it only takes religion as a motivator for war out of the equation. And even this was not the case, as can be seen on the North-Ireland conflict that goes on to this day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    I think the fact that Christianity has become corrupted and its modern adherents, much like their atheists counterparts, support universality and cultural relativism is not because of Christianity itself, but because of modern, post-Enlightenment values and beliefs being transplanted onto Christianity and society as a whole. Really, Christianity is diametrically opposed to cultural relativism because it believes in an objective truth and objective morality in contrast to the modern relativist views.
    The implantation of christianity in Europe was an act of cultural relativism. It replaced the folk-centered belief and replaced it with a "god for all people".

    That christianity is intolerant against other beliefs is not due to it not being relativistic - as a precondition to its implantation - but due to that it is a political power tool.

    While you will deny this, that it was used as a political power tool, you continue to claim that it would have "united Europe". This is an impossible thing though when it was not used as a political power tool. In fact, Christianity is absolute fascist in its opinion of and dealing with people who believe something else.

    And as a "god for all people" it is by its very definition relativistic, because it denies the exclusivity of a god or gods for only one folk.

    These ideas are not a corruption of christian belief, sorry, they ARE Christianity.

    This making up of Europe means Christendom is complete nonsense. Christianity was not invented by Europeans, it does not base in European folklore, customs or traditions, it does not even contain one single mention of Europeans, it is Jewish through and through, and only makes sense in the environment of the Jewish conception of the world on top. The bible contains Jewish history, Jewish customs, Jewish tradition, Jewish world view, the messiah is a Jew, all Apostles are Jews.

    There is not a single word about Europeans in it, and if Gentiles are mentioned, only as the abhorrent barbarians, a despiseable lot and enemies of Jews.

    Why dont you realise that this has nothing to do with us as a people? That is it cultural relativism to implant this alien cult on us? How can you deny that this must have a damaging effect on us?


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Pagans also united to kill fellow Europeans in their self-righteous wars against Christendom. Pagan Europeans were slaughtering each other in the pre-Christian world and atheist Europeans were slaughtering each other in the post-Christian landscape of our modern era. Guess thats ok though.
    Holger Danske - Heathen - sided with Charlemagne - Christian - to kick out the invading Sarrazenes. Despite that Charlemagne also waged war against Denmark to include it into the HRE.

    A perfectly normal response to invading enemies: you fight back. Because if you dont, you lose your country, your homeland, your folk.

    There is no miraculous 'belief' required, only common sense.

    And the Heathens obviously also figured that Islam as such poses a threat, a so big threat that Holger put his rightful war against invading Charlemagne to rest to side with his enemy against the Islamists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    As for religion not being a binding factor, from about the 9th century to the early 18th century Christianity was the major binding factor and civilization of Europe. Religion continues to be a binding factor in the non-European world to this day.

    Look, I dont deny that a faith is an important sociological and cultural factor.

    But, cult and culture are the same. Our culture is Pagan through and through, while Christianity replaced the cult with something foreign. Just look into Russia or South America to see how different Christianity is there from European Christianity. Christianity does not possess culture or tradition or customs, it only has a "god for all people".

    But when you cut off the roots of culture, the cult, you also cut off the life-giving force of it. That is the reason why our culture is dying, because it is emptied out of any real value and replaced with platitudes.


    The problems we face, for why not only our culture is dying but also our folk, cannot possibly repaired by reingiting Christianity.

    Our folk needs pride in itself to withstand the tides, and recognising the role of cult ("religion") in this, this pride comes from the myths telling about the ethnogenesis of a people, the gods that played a role in this folk-creation and the need of this folk to thank these gods for protecting them against foes, the need of this folk to attribute all the precious gifts to the god/gods he/they gave them to become what they are and so on.

    A Jewish messiah CANNOT be the solution to this problem. A Jewish messiah and a Jewish god CANNOT offer this folk-centeredness, this is an oxymoron for all other peoples except for Jews.

    A "god for all people" is an absurd idea, unless ALL PEOPLE are the same.

    And a "god for all people" is also superfluous. Why should one have such a god? It fulfills absolutely no purpose FOR A FOLK, in fact such a god is an antithesis to the very idea of different folks.


    We need gods that chose us - as a folk - as his / her / their chosen people. We need these myths that tell about our ethnogenesis (not Jewish genealogy), the genesis of our nations (not Israel's), we need the gods to worship this genesis for us to take pride in our past, our history, our folk, our nations.


    In "Western Identity" we are not even mentioned. It is a Jewish god and a Jewish messiah who are worshipped, it is Greek (not Germanic) philosophy that is cheered, it is Roman Empire politics and bureaucracy that is the base for the structures of our countries.


    Where are WE in all this? Where is our folk supposed to take pride from when they are constantly told that before they were enlightened by all this foreign stuff, they were uncivilised barbarians and a worthless bunch of greedy warmongerers? Since more than a millenia we - Germanics - are told that we are worth nothing by ourselves, that everything we ever created and were was only and alone due to foreign enlightenment and merit.


    White selfhate anyone? It comes from the "Western Identity". It is absolutely not surprising that our people under these preconditions are gullible for race mixing, after all, this is the mantra of the last millenia throughout that everything good comes from the South, from foreign people, other people than our own.
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    I think we have more important things to worry about than wanting to recreate a Scandinavian lifestyle for Germanic europeans, time to be realistic. Our society is based on christianity and there was a germanisation of early christianity. Just look how it absorbed old customs like yule, easter, midsummer etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hersir View Post
    I think we have more important things to worry about than wanting to recreate a Scandinavian lifestyle for Germanic europeans, time to be realistic. Our society is based on christianity and there was a germanisation of early christianity. Just look how it absorbed old customs like yule, easter, midsummer etc.
    Something that is overlooked about Judaism 2,000 years ago (was it called Judaism back then ) is that there were different branches of Judaism. Roughly 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish (again not sure if that would have been the correct term at the time), around 8 million people. Besides Palestine, Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) had a significant population of Jews, as did Egypt & Asia Minor. Not all of these persons were descendents of Abraham, most were probably the result of proselytizing in the 3-4 hundred years before Christ. It was most common in those areas that had been part of the empire of Alexander the Great. Judaism had been heavily Hellenized in Asia Minor & even to an extend in Palestine & Egypt. So what some call a "desert faith" had already already undergone a significant Westernization (Hellenic) prior to Christ. Christianity continued to evolve under the Romans, Celts & Germanics (Protestant Reformation).

    Judaism has also evolved away from Christianity over the last 2,000 years, Tahmudic Judaism coming out of Mesopotamia which was the center of Judaica immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    As for Christianity going extinct in the West that is just wishful thinking among certain anti-Christian Secularist intellectuals. Christianity will have to adapt, the US sects will need to abandon pre-millenialism (which is the justification for pro-Israelism) & adopt a racial seperatism (that can be justified on Old Testament scripture) but it will survive.
    Last edited by Æmeric; Wednesday, March 23rd, 2011 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    I guess that was the same with Christianity once. The masses just imitate anyways, you need only a few who take it seriously, those who are at the top.
    Well good luck with that. We may never know but I am willing to bet its almost a 100% certainty that heathenism will not become a major religion or spiritual system in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    A mere unsubstantiated claim. There have been countless of incentives for alliances against common foes apart from religion, and who can say what we had gotten instead of "Western civilization" wouldn't have been better?
    Historical guess work should stay out of this discussion.
    The only historical guess work involved would be guessing as to what would have or could have happened aside from the Christian Western Civilization uniting various European ethnic groups and cultures, which is actually what occurred historically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    You understand this is no argument, this is just the repetition of a claim.
    There are various reasons for bonding, religion itself is none, although it can carry those reasons in itself (e.g. symbolism like the cross), they have to be specifically utilized though.
    The proof for this assertion is the already established empiricism that Christians fight Christians at least as much as they fight non-Christians.
    I think the fact that Christians fought other Christians more than non-Christians is due to regional politics more than anything. Take France for example, they were entirely surrounded by Christian kingdoms/states throughout their history, and thus its quite obvious that their enemies, most of the time, would be other Christians. This has more to do with regal and national interests rather than religious interests. However, what incentive would there be for Polish, German, Italian, French, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Danish, Byzantine, Georgian, and other people to unite together against Islam if it were not their common religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenjäger View Post
    This is totally bullshit statement. Western Civilization wouldn't exist without heritage and achievements of the Ancient Greece, which christians later acquired and presented as theirs. You seem deliberately ignoring fact that before christianity existed advanced graeco-roman world, which was de facto "western civilization" and gave birth to all great ideas of the West. Christianity is only another chapter in the history of western civilization, and is a subject of many controversies - mainly becouse of its un-western origin.
    Yes, Greco-Roman heritage is one of the foundational cornerstones of Western Civilization. No one is denying that. However, the other cornerstone is that of Christianity. When most people speak of Western Civilization, they are speaking of the Europe of the post-ancient world into the modern era. During that time, Christianity was the dominant culture and religion, and influenced nearly every domain of European civilization.

    Concepts of what is the West arose out of legacies of the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Later, ideas of the west were formed by the concepts of Christendom and the Holy Roman Empire. What we think of as Western thought today is generally defined as Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian culture, and includes the ideals of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.
    With the rise of Christianity in the midst of the Roman world, much of Rome's tradition and culture were absorbed by the new religion, and transformed into something new, which would serve as the basis for the development of Western civilization after the fall of Rome. Also, Roman culture mixed with the pre-existing Celtic, Germanic and Slavic cultures, which slowly became integrated into Western culture starting, mainly, with their acceptance of Christianity.
    Much of the basis of the post-Roman cultural world had been set before the fall of the Empire, mainly through the integrating and reshaping of Roman ideas through Christian thought. The Greek and Roman paganism had been completely replaced by Christianity around the 4th and 5th centuries, since it became the official State religion following the baptism of emperor Constantine I. Roman Catholic Christianity and the Nicene Creed served as a unifying force in Western Europe, and in some respects replaced or competed with the secular authorities. Art and literature, law, education, and politics were preserved in the teachings of the Church, in an environment that, otherwise, would have probably seen their loss. The Church founded many cathedrals, universities, monasteries and seminaries, some of which continue to exist today. In the Medieval period, the route to power for many men was in the Church.
    The West actively encouraged the spreading of Christianity, which was inexorably linked to the spread of Western culture.
    The sense of unity among these Germanic states was institutionalized in a federation of increasingly independent states, some of them very small, called the Holy Roman Empire, which fused Germanic aristocratic political traditions, Roman Catholic Christianity, and the traditions of imperial rule inherited from the Romans (even though the Holy Roman Empire was never as tightly knit administratively or as militarily powerful as the Roman Empire).

    In looking at this slow emergence of a distinctive civilization, it’s impossible to overestimate the importance of Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church which, in effect, created the unique mix of traditions which enabled Western Europe to emerge at all.
    Among scholarly interpreters of the West, it has been widely understood that Western civilization was formed from three distinct traditions: (1) the classical culture of Greece and Rome; (2) the Christian religion, particularly Western Christianity; and (3) the Enlightenment of the modern era.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenjäger View Post
    Your deliberate manipulation of historical facts and blind devotion makes me wonder sometimes, if you're some catholic priest or pastor who's job is, to defend his parasitic institution from a rightful demise.
    No, I am not even a Christian, but I do wish to defend historical fact from untruth, revisionism, and error.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Just because many people believe in something, doesnt mean that it is truth, and even less 'the' truth.

    Millions of people today believe in the multicultural society, they believe in the holohoax, and a reasonable number believe that steaks come from the supermarket.
    This has no bearing on the statement you made about God being the antithesis to spirituality.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    You forget that Christianity has been on the very same level alien to Europe, and it remained that alien until Luther translated the bible in the 15th century. Until then there was absolutely no difference in the alienness of Islam and Christianity, and the level of alienness only decreased very slowly and more often than not, against the will of the church.
    I am sorry velvet, but what you are saying here has no basis in history, and no scholar, or even amateur historian, would ever accept what you are stating. I suggest reading some history books and re-thinking your fiery anti-Christian bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    I said "more or less", I didnt claim that there have been no wars. I just say that one (of many) of the main driving forces for war, the church, lost influence. This of course is no guarantee for no wars, it only takes religion as a motivator for war out of the equation. And even this was not the case, as can be seen on the North-Ireland conflict that goes on to this day.
    The complexity of these religious conflicts extend into the non-religious realm and often have a multitude of reasons, mostly secular and purely political, for these conflicts to erupt in the first place. Its never quite is simple as, "Hey! You are a Protestant! I'm a kill you now." or "Stupid Papal pawn. Lets fight to the death." This is not to say that conflicts between the religions did not happen, because of course they did. However, often the major religious wars are far more complex than simply Catholic vs Protestant.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    This making up of Europe means Christendom is complete nonsense. Christianity was not invented by Europeans, it does not base in European folklore, customs or traditions, it does not even contain one single mention of Europeans, it is Jewish through and through, and only makes sense in the environment of the Jewish conception of the world on top. The bible contains Jewish history, Jewish customs, Jewish tradition, Jewish world view, the messiah is a Jew, all Apostles are Jews.

    Why dont you realise that this has nothing to do with us as a people? That is it cultural relativism to implant this alien cult on us? How can you deny that this must have a damaging effect on us?
    Which became, through the adoption of Christianity by European people, part of the religious-cultural tradition of Europe from the time of Constantine until close to our modern era. Read the quotes I posted above in response to Schattenjäger.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    A Jewish messiah CANNOT be the solution to this problem. A Jewish messiah and a Jewish god CANNOT offer this folk-centeredness, this is an oxymoron for all other peoples except for Jews.

    A "god for all people" is an absurd idea, unless ALL PEOPLE are the same.

    And a "god for all people" is also superfluous. Why should one have such a god? It fulfills absolutely no purpose FOR A FOLK, in fact such a god is an antithesis to the very idea of different folks.

    We need gods that chose us - as a folk - as his / her / their chosen people. We need these myths that tell about our ethnogenesis (not Jewish genealogy), the genesis of our nations (not Israel's), we need the gods to worship this genesis for us to take pride in our past, our history, our folk, our nations.

    In "Western Identity" we are not even mentioned. It is a Jewish god and a Jewish messiah who are worshipped, it is Greek (not Germanic) philosophy that is cheered, it is Roman Empire politics and bureaucracy that is the base for the structures of our countries.

    Where are WE in all this? Where is our folk supposed to take pride from when they are constantly told that before they were enlightened by all this foreign stuff, they were uncivilised barbarians and a worthless bunch of greedy warmongerers? Since more than a millenia we - Germanics - are told that we are worth nothing by ourselves, that everything we ever created and were was only and alone due to foreign enlightenment and merit.

    White selfhate anyone? It comes from the "Western Identity". It is absolutely not surprising that our people under these preconditions are gullible for race mixing, after all, this is the mantra of the last millenia throughout that everything good comes from the South, from foreign people, other people than our own.
    Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps a person religious beliefs, which deal with questions such as "Why am I here? Where am I going? What is the nature of man? What is life and its purpose? What is death and what lies beyond death?" might have nothing to due with folkish nationalism? That if Taoism were the Truth, for example, though it is totally alien to Western culture and history, it would be the wise choice for someone looking for spiritual truth to adopt it on its basis of truth? Not everything has to do with folkish nationalism. Should I never eat pizza again because it is non-Germanic?

    In any case, I don't think Western man has hated himself and admired the Jews for the past 1000 to 1700 years, in fact the opposite seems to have been the case. Actually, it would seem to me that Western man has more self-hatred today, when Christianity is dying and atheistic secularism is replacing it, than any other time in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Roughly 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish (again not sure if that would have been the correct term at the time), around 8 million people.
    Could you come up with a source for that? I have never heard of this claim before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Could you come up with a source for that? I have never heard of this claim before.
    Judea was under Roman rule, but I doubt there were was many as 8 million jews in that time.

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