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Thread: Are the English People Really Germans?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroBro View Post
    England is only Germanic due to the language classification.

    The Anglo-Saxon-Frisian-Jute invasion gave them a Germanic tongue and left behind some Germanic settlements. I believe most Germanic blood, in the Briton England comes from enclaves of Germanic settlements.

    The English throne is quasi-Germanic, as they do have a bit more German blood than the general populace.
    No offence, but everything you've ever said about the genetics of the English or Britons, be it estimations of Negroid admixture or assessments of our Germanicness, have been unfounded and quite demonstrably false.

    I made a thread here about the genetic connections between the English and Dutch, so it looks as though your own people must also be only linguistically Germanic.

    ----------------

    I've seen a whole bunch of contradictory studies on Germanic influence in Britain. Some say pretty much 100%, others say pretty much 0%. I don't pay much attention, since there's a world of political motive behind such statements. 'We're all mixed and we're all immigrants!' is the favoured position ofr morons. The BNP and such, conversely, like studies, regardless of quality, that suggest the opposite. Yes, they should be free to do so. There's no shame in cheating in an already-rigged game. But both angles should be taken with a pinch of salt by intelligent minds.

    Most studies on Britons that I've seen have us fall somewhere between the Irish (probably the most genetically-native Isles population -- as long as we define 'native' as pre-Germanic and not pre-Celtic, of course --, considering the English influence in Wales) and continental Germanics, and it seems a reasonable position to conclude we're the descendants of both insular and Germanic invasion populations. Exactly how much is hard to determine by myself (since I don't trust most studies, at least not ones with any media attention), especially since the Irish, as a secluded population, have likely had their genetic distance from us increased through inbreeding (not in a bad sense). Then on the flip side of that, a portion of this distance may have been reduced through various waves of English, Scottish and Welsh settlement (the Welsh, while not Germanic, may be a common element to both Irish and British populations, and may cloud any model that attempts to use the Irish and not the Welsh as the best example of an unmixed insular population).

    There are many other considerations too which I won't bore you with, but suffice it to say, it's a tricky business to pin down a precise percentage of Germanicness without some advanced technique, which, if available, is available only to dishonest, media-sensitive professionals.

  2. #32
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCP3 View Post
    British military historian R.Grenfell estimated the Germanic blood share (Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norse---in that order) inside the English population (Wales, Scotland, Ireland exculded) to 70% ---in 1953 (!)---when the UK was 98% "White British".

    The official numbers however have changed: As of 2007 only 81,7% of the English population are "White British" (=English, Welsh, Scots, Irish) nowadays.

    Even the most optimistic calculation considering that NO mixing (just the opposite is true) had occurred between Germanic, Celtic and Romano-British elements would then reduce the Grand Total of Germanic people to below the 50% figure of the total population.

    This makes England to a country where people of Germanic stock are a minority, thus it is you that is right:
    England is not a Germanic nation.
    There's no point in taking recent immigration into account. Those immigrants are obviously not representative of the original English nation.


    You furthermore assume that there was no pre-Anglo-Saxon Germanic element in the population of ancient Britain, which likely was there(Belgae; Roman auxiliary/foederati/slaves).

    On the other hand there were certainly Brythonic(which in turn had already absorbed the above mentioned examples) groups absorbed into the Anglo-Saxon population. But it was far less than you make it out to be for the settlement of the Anglo-Saxons was a violent one, as is evidenced by the records of Bede, the myths about Arthur and the fact that there are next to none Celtic influences in the English language or in place names.
    The majority of Brythonics either fled to the remote area of Wales, Brittany and as far as northern Spain or were killed(obviously this is more true for the male than for the female population).
    You also assume that the Irish, Scottish or Welsh that migrated to England in later times had no Germanic component, which they had by way of English and Scandinavian influence.

    But obviously in an ethnogenesis there will always be certain substrates assimilated into the body of a people, there's also no doubt about this. It was no different in Germany regarding Celts and Slavs.

    Likewise it was no different for the earliest groups of Germanics who dominated and absorbed different(but racially and probably culturally reasonably close) groups if you go back far enough. You have to make a cut-off at one point in time, otherwise you’ll be left with very few “genetical” Germanics. I’ve long given up to trust genetic studies in regards to the British Isles because they regularly contradict each other, with the amount of Germanic genetical elements varying between 5 to 80% percent.

    This is no subscription to any form of “White” policies because once the ethnogenesis is effectively completed, which is the case if no numerically important groups as a whole have been absorbed anymore for a long time, you have whole nations whose integrity is threatened by the absorption of new elements, especially by elements as foreign as we receive today.


    So the English are obviously not “German” but they’re by all means Germanic.
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  3. #33
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    The English are Celto-Germanic. We know that the celts wern't driven away by immigrating tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    No offence, but everything you've ever said about the genetics of the English or Britons, be it estimations of Negroid admixture or assessments of our Germanicness, have been unfounded and quite demonstrably false.

    I made a thread here about the genetic connections between the English and Dutch, so it looks as though your own people must also be only linguistically Germanic.

    ----------------

    I've seen a whole bunch of contradictory studies on Germanic influence in Britain. Some say pretty much 100%, others say pretty much 0%. I don't pay much attention, since there's a world of political motive behind such statements. 'We're all mixed and we're all immigrants!' is the favoured position ofr morons. The BNP and such, conversely, like studies, regardless of quality, that suggest the opposite. Yes, they should be free to do so. There's no shame in cheating in an already-rigged game. But both angles should be taken with a pinch of salt by intelligent minds.

    Most studies on Britons that I've seen have us fall somewhere between the Irish (probably the most genetically-native Isles population -- as long as we define 'native' as pre-Germanic and not pre-Celtic, of course --, considering the English influence in Wales) and continental Germanics, and it seems a reasonable position to conclude we're the descendants of both insular and Germanic invasion populations. Exactly how much is hard to determine by myself (since I don't trust most studies, at least not ones with any media attention), especially since the Irish, as a secluded population, have likely had their genetic distance from us increased through inbreeding (not in a bad sense). Then on the flip side of that, a portion of this distance may have been reduced through various waves of English, Scottish and Welsh settlement (the Welsh, while not Germanic, may be a common element to both Irish and British populations, and may cloud any model that attempts to use the Irish and not the Welsh as the best example of an unmixed insular population).

    There are many other considerations too which I won't bore you with, but suffice it to say, it's a tricky business to pin down a precise percentage of Germanicness without some advanced technique, which, if available, is available only to dishonest, media-sensitive professionals.
    I am not Dutch.

    I am Frisian.

    Frisians are one of the oldest Germanic tribes. Frisia is divided between Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands.

    I stand by every word I said.

    I believe that England is Germanic in language group classification.Outside of enclaves where Germanic settlers lived, very little is Germanic in England of today.

    So, stop calling me Dutch, because I am Frisian and Sachsen, with a bit of Bavarian. I only live in the Netherlands.

    England received its Germanic influence from the Anglos, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians. Frisians even had some settlements there, and some desecndants of those Frisians live there today.

    However, the majority of people and blood of England is not Germanic. Sure, some people have German bloodlines there. The Queen has a great deal of German ancestry.

    Britons are Britons.

    Germanic bloodlines do exist there to this day. English has a Germanic language classification. But, The majority of the blood of England is not Germanic blood.

    Britons, Welsh, Celts, etc., these are not Germanic tribes.

    Do I say no English are Germanic? Certainly not. What I say is the Germanic tribes did not give birth to all of England, only small genetic enclaves exist there.

    I would have to know someone's bloodline to know if they were of Germanic descent or not.

    Today, even 12 to 20% people living in Germany are not Germanic.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroBro
    I am not Dutch.

    I am Frisian.
    Oh, OK. I'm sure that Frisians are vastly genetically different from the Dutch. Btw, I was using 'Dutch' in the sense of 'Netherlands native', since 'Netherlandsish' isn't a word. The study I referred to didn't make any internal distinctions within NL, as far as I know, so it may well have included Frisians or people with partial Frisian heritage. I'm sure that you feel genetic studies on 'Germans' equally can't be extrapolated to Bavarians, Thuringians, Prussians etc. either, and would therefore be entirely redundant.

    Frisians are one of the oldest Germanic tribes. Frisian is divided between Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands.
    So is it your position that neither the English nor their relatives, the Dutch, are Germanic, but Frisians (who presumably you don't think are related to the English) are?

    I stand by every word I said.

    I believe that England is Germanic in language group classification.Outside of enclaves where Germanic settlers lived, very little is Germanic in England of today.
    I'm guessing, since you also 'strongly believed' in spite of all evidence that, IIRC, 30% of Britons have significant Sub-Saharan ancestry, this mostly derives from some personal issues of yours, and not from any sober appraisal of available research on either topic.

    So, stop calling me Dutch, because I am Frisian and Sachsen, with a bit of Bavarian. I only live in the Netherlands.
    This reminds me of that time Hevneren had a little sulk with me for saying something about how he was similar to a Dutchman. I never knew being called Dutch was so offensive to so many people

    England received its Germanic influence from the Anglos, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians. Frisians even had some settlements there, and some desecndants of those Frisians live there today.

    However, the majority of people and blood of England is not Germanic. Sure, some people have German bloodlines there. The Queen has a great deal of German ancestry.

    Britons are Britons.

    Germanic bloodlines do exist there to this day. English has a Germanic language classification. But, The majority of the blood of England are not Germanic blood.

    Britons, Welsh, Celts, etc., these are not Germanic tribes.
    I'm a little offended that you felt you needed to give me a nursery school level education on the history of my own people. None of the above was a compelling argument as to the lack of Germanic blood in England either. I don't know why you think saying, 'Britons, Welsh, Celts, etc., these are not Germanic tribes' says anything about Germanic contribution to the modern English gene pool. But it seems that you do, so maybe you could fill me in on that.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroBro View Post
    I believe that England is Germanic in language group classification.Outside of enclaves where Germanic settlers lived, very little is Germanic in England of today.

    England received its Germanic influence from the Anglos, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians. Frisians even had some settlements there, and some desecndants of those Frisians live there today.

    However, the majority of people and blood of England is not Germanic. Sure, some people have German bloodlines there. The Queen has a great deal of German ancestry.

    Britons are Britons.

    Germanic bloodlines do exist there to this day. English has a Germanic language classification. But, The majority of the blood of England is not Germanic blood.

    Britons, Welsh, Celts, etc., these are not Germanic tribes.

    Do I say no English are Germanic? Certainly not. What I say is the Germanic tribes did not give birth to all of England, only small genetic enclaves exist there.

    I would have to know someone's bloodline to know if they were of Germanic descent or not.

    Today, even 12 to 20% people living in Germany are not Germanic.
    I'm wondering how these small enclaves could almost fully displace the Celtic linguistical and cultural influence and shape the future of England on their own then. Especially since the Romano-Britons supposedly had better weaponry(and if following your theory, also much higher numbers) than the Germanic invaders.

    If you compare it to the Norman conquest following 1066 it's clear that a determined, military potent and well organised but (comparatively) small group can indeed dominate a numerically superior group but on the other hand, it was mostly a political influence and French never replaced English as the language of the common people nor did England acquire a French culture. Although it was of course influenced in both aspects.
    An analogous example of this would be the fate of the Franks in Gaul.

    By the way, assuming you were talking about ethnic Germans what would you consider these '''non-Germanics'' to be then? Crypto-Celts and crypto-Slavs?
    If we're talking about mere citizenship "Germans", I doubt anyone here would mistake them for actual Germans. In that case it's highly irrelevant to the topic.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    Oh, OK. I'm sure that Frisians are vastly genetically different from the Dutch. Btw, I was using 'Dutch' in the sense of 'Netherlands native', since 'Netherlandsish' isn't a word. The study I referred to didn't make any internal distinctions within NL, as far as I know, so it may well have included Frisians or people with partial Frisian heritage. I'm sure that you feel genetic studies on 'Germans' equally can't be extrapolated to Bavarians, Thuringians, Prussians etc. either, and would therefore be entirely redundant.



    So is it your position that neither the English nor their relatives, the Dutch, are Germanic, but Frisians (who presumably you don't think are related to the English) are?



    I'm guessing, since you also 'strongly believed' in spite of all evidence that, IIRC, 30% of Britons have significant Sub-Saharan ancestry, this mostly derives from some personal issues of yours, and not from any sober appraisal of available research on either topic.



    This reminds me of that time Hevneren had a little sulk with me for saying something about how he was similar to a Dutchman. I never knew being called Dutch was so offensive to so many people



    I'm a little offended that you felt you needed to give me a nursery school level education on the history of my own people. None of the above was a compelling argument as to the lack of Germanic blood in England either. I don't know why you think saying, 'Britons, Welsh, Celts, etc., these are not Germanic tribes' says anything about Germanic contribution to the modern English gene pool. But it seems that you do, so maybe you could fill me in on that.
    I don't see why you are so sensitive.

    You seem to twist everything I say around.

    I don't need to keep up on this ridiculousness.

    Bloodlines are what make us what we are.

    To say anyone is German, would require that they have significant German Bloodlines.

    Not all British people have the same bloodlines, and as you know Britain contains many different Ethnic groups.

    I have never said anything regarding the Dutch, only that I am not Dutch, but Frisian. I live in the Netherlands, but I am not Dutch. Just because I clarify to you that I am not Dutch, does not mean I am insulting people that are Dutch.

    What makes a Germanic person? Germanic bloodlines.

    A German Shepard is not a German Shepard, if he has a labrador retriever for a mother, or border collie for a father.

    I believe some people in England do come from Germanic bloodlines, but not all have significant German ancestry. But, before you bet on the horse, you have to know the bloodlines.

    The Welsh, etc, and other groups living in England are not Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroBro
    I don't see why you are so sensitive.
    Well, let's do a thought experiment: 'Frisians aren't Germanic, and a large percentage are part Negroid. I have no evidence to support those claims, but I believe them!' Did you enjoy reading that? Of course not. You can also infer that, since people only believe what they believe without evidence when they want something to be true, the person who'd make such a statement wants to exclude your group or tarnish it in some way, presumably because they don't like it.

    But, look, I have no problem with you, only with what you said. If you had evidence, that's another story, but you've made some ridiculous claims about Britons in the past, and I felt now was the time to put a stop to it. If casual browsers read your claims and take you as some kind of authority, isn't that something I should try to correct? Wouldn't you do the same if Frisians were equally slandered (and while being called 'almost wholly indigenous' doesn't amount to much of a slander in my eyes, on Skadi it can be perceived to be intended as such, and the SSA thing you talked about in other threads is an obvious slander).

    To say anyone is German, would require that they have significant German Bloodlines.
    German? I know this thread's title is worded that way, but we've been talking about Germanics for most of the thread, and you were talking about Germanics too.

    I have never said anything regarding the Dutch, only that I am not Dutch, but Frisian.
    My point was this: I was making the argument that if the English and Dutch are related, and the Dutch have no significant Celtic component, then the English must have a significant Germanic component in order to be related to them. The fact that you ignored this and instead talked about how Germanic Frisians were and how not-Dutch they were, I had to conclude this was your counter-argument, meaning: 'Frisians are Germanic. Dutch are just so different from us, so any affinity they have with the English means nothing'. I knew that wasn't your actual argument, but I was highlighting how your response was skirting the main point of what I'd said in the previous post.

    What makes a Germanic person? Germanic bloodlines.

    A German Shepard is not a German Shepard, if he has a labrador retriever for a mother, or border collie for a father.

    I believe some people in England do come from Germanic bloodlines, but not all have significant German ancestry.
    Well, we do have significant North German ancestry, but we're probably equally or even more related to the Dutch and Southern Danes.

    The Welsh, etc, and many groups living in England are not Germanic.

  9. #39
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    To clarify more of my position:

    France, is not a Germanic country.

    However, France has people of Germanic descent that are Germanics. Even some areas in Italy, an even less Germanic country, have Germanic enclaves with significant Germanic contributions.

    Many Countries that are not German countries, have areas that received significant Germanic influence and have Germanics living there. Although, the countries themselves are not Germanic.

    The English language itself is not even very German, although it is very loosely grouped amongst Germanic languages.

    Yes, Anglos are Germanic, but not all Britons are Anglo, nor have all Britons an Anglo enough bloodline to say they are Germanic tribesmen.

    In a Germany not so long ago, 1930's and 40's, even German's themselves had to prove they were real Germans. Germans themselves had to prove that their blood was significantly German. Why should we assume all English are Germanic without individual phenotyping, and ancestral lineages?

    It must all be taken on an individual, case by case basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    No offence, but everything you've ever said about the genetics of the English or Britons, be it estimations of Negroid admixture or assessments of our Germanicness, have been unfounded and quite demonstrably false.
    Can you back up that my sister BroBro ever made such a claim?
    Or are you just saying it without a shred of evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    I made a thread here about the genetic connections between the English and Dutch, so it looks as though your own people must also be only linguistically Germanic.
    No surprise here because the 'Dutch' (Frisians) and the Anglo-Saxons were once "neighbours" so to speak. The Dutch (and the Anglo-Saxons) are not only linguistically German, they are ethnically German. Both are literally 'siblings', and offspring of the German mother nation.



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