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Thread: The Dresden Holocaust: Lest We Forget

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    Exclamation The Phosphorus Bombings of Dresden, February 13, 1945 - Paying Our Respects

    IN MEMORY OF DRESDEN 14th FEBRUARY 1945. THE WORST SINGLE ATROCITY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND - COURTESY OF AMERICA AND THEIR BRITISH LAPDOGS (AS ALWAYS)



    "Will there be room for [the German refugees, fleeing before the Red army] in what is left of Germany? We have killed six or seven million Germans and probably there will be an other million or so killed before the end of the war."
    -- Winston Churchill
    (picture) according to James F Byrnes' shorthand note of Plenary Session at Yalta, Feb. 7, 1945 (H S Truman Libr., Independence


    That's how Germany's cities looked after the "liberation" by the "knights of democracy". The German "democratic" elite effusively thanks the murderers for "liberating" the Germans the "democratic" way.

    Between 1940 and 1945, nearly one-hundred German cities with a total population of 25 million souls were destroyed or devastated in a bombing campaign initiated by the British government. Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible quite regardless of their civilian status. It led to retaliatory bombing resulting in 60,000 British dead and 86,000 injured.


    "It is one of the greatest triumphs of modern emotional engineering that, in spite of the plain facts of the case which could never be disguised or even materially distorted, the British public, throughout the Blitz Period (1940 - 1941), remained convinced that the entire responsibility for their sufferings rested on the German leaders." --Advance to Barbarism, F.J.P Veale


    "It may be Inconvenient History but England rather than Germany initiated the murderous slaughter of bombing civilians thus bringing about retaliation. Chamberlain conceded that it was 'Absolutely contrary to International law'. "It began in 1940 and Churchill believed it held the secret of victory. He was convinced that raids of sufficient intensity could destroy Germany?s morale, and so his War Cabinet planned a campaign that abandoned the accepted practice of attacking the enemy?s armed forces and, instead made civilians the primary target. Night after night, RAF bombers in ever increasing numbers struck throughout Germany, usually at working class housing, because it was more densley packed."
    --The Peoples? War, Angus Calder. London, Jonathan Cape, 1969.


    "Hitler only undertook the bombing of British civilian targets reluctantly three months after the RAF had commenced bombing German civilian targets. Hitler would have been willing at any time to stop the slaughter. Hitler was genuinely anxious to reach with Britain an agreement confining the action of aircraft to battle zones. Retaliation was certain if we carried the war into Germany. There was a reasonable possibility that our capital and industrial centres would not have been attacked if we had continued to refrain from attacking those of Germany. We began to bomb objectives on the German mainland before the Germans began to bomb objectives on the British mainland. Because we were doubtful about the psychological effect of propagandist distortion of the truth that it was we who started the strategic bombing offensive, we have shrunk from giving our great decision of May,11th, 1940, the publicity it deserves."
    -- J.M Spaight., CB., CBE., Principle Secretary to the Air Ministry, Bombing Vindicated


    "The attack on the Ruhr was therefore an informal invitation to the Luftwaffe to bomb London. The primary purpose of these raids was to goad the Germans into undertaking reprisal raids of a similar character on Britain. Such raids would arouse intense indignation in Britain against Germany and so create a war psychosis without which it would be impossible to carry on a modern war." -- The Royal Air Force, 1939 - 1945, The Fight at Odds.p.122. Dennis Richards, Her Majesty's Stationery Office.



    THE MOST UNCIVILISED FORM OF WARFARE


    The eminent British war historian and strategist, Captain Sir. Basil Liddell Hart declared that through this strategy victory had been achieved "through practising the most uncivilised means of warfare that the world had known since the Mongol invasions." The Evolution of Warfare. 1946, p.75:


    "Was absolutely contrary to international law."
    --Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain


    "The inhabitants of Coventry (Liverpool), for example, continued to imagine that their sufferings were due to the innate villainy of Adolf Hitler without a suspicion that a decision, splendid or otherwise, of the British War Cabinet, was the decisive factor in the case." - F.J.P Veale. Advance to Barbarism, P.169.



    THE TERROR TARGETING OF WORKING CLASS CIVILIANS

    "I am in full agreement (of terror bombing). I am all for the bombing of working class areas in German cities. I am a Cromwellian - I believe in 'slaying in the name of the Lord!" --Sir. Archibald Sinclair, Secretary for Air.



    WIVES AND CHILDREN TARGETTED

    "They (the British Air Chiefs) argued that the desired result, of reducing German industrial production, would be more readily achieved if the homes of the workers in the factories were destroyed; if the workers were kept busy arranging for the burial of their wives and children, output might reasonably be expected to fall. It was concentrated on working class houses because, as Professor Lindemann maintained, "A higher percentage of bloodshed per ton of explosives dropped could be expected from bombing houses built close together, rather than by bombing higher class houses surrounded by gardens." --Advance to Barbarism, F.J.P Veale.



    SO COWARDLY IT HAD TO BE HIDDEN

    "One of the most unhealthy features of the bombing offensive was that the War Cabinet - and in particular the Secretary for Air, Archibald Sinclair (now Lord Thurso), felt it necessary to repudiate publicly the orders which they themselves had given to Bomber Command." R.H.S Crossman, MP. Sunday Telegraph, Oct.1st,1961



    PERSPECTIVES


    During the war, more bombs by weight were dropped on the city of Berlin than were released on the whole of Great Britain during the entire war.

    All German towns and cities above 50,000 population were from 50% to 80% destroyed. Dresden, an unprotected city, was incinerated with an estimated 500,000 civilian inhabitants burned and buried in the ruins. Hamburg was totally destroyed and more than 100,000 civilians died in the most appalling circumstances whilst Cologne was likewise turned into a moon-scape. As Hamburg burned the winds feeding the three mile high flames reached twice hurricane speed to exceed 150 miles per hour. Trees three feet in diameter on the outskirts of the city, were sucked from the ground by the supernatural forces of these winds and hurled miles into the city-inferno, as were vehicles, men, women... and children.

    Between 1940 and 1945, nearly one-hundred German cities with a total population of 25 million souls were destroyed or devastated in a bombing campaign initiated by the British government. Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible quite regardless of their civilian status. It led to retaliatory bombing resulting in 60,000 British dead and 86,000 injured.



    CHILDREN MACHINE-GUNNED


    The strafing of columns of refugees by both American and British fighter planes was par for the course: ".... it is said that these (zoo) animals and terrified groups of refugees were machine-gunned as they tried to escape across the Grosser Garten by low-flying planes and that many bodies riddled by bullets were found later in this park." Der Tod von Dresden, Axel Rodenberger, February, 25th, 1951. In Dresden, "Even the huddled remnants of a children's' choir were machine-gunned in a street bordering a park." David Irving, The Destruction of Dresden. "I think we shall live to rue the day we did this, and that it, (The bombing of Dresden) will stand for all time as a blot on our escutcheon." Richard Stokes, M.P. "What we want to do in addition to the horrors of fire is to bring the masonry crashing down on the Boche, to kill Boche and to terrify Boche." --'Bomber' Butch Harris, Sunday Times, January, 10th, 1993.



    THE FIRESTORM OF HAMBURG

    "Its horror is revealed in the howling and raging of the firestorms, the hellish noise of exploding bombs and the death cries of martyred human beings as well as the big silence after the raids. Speech is impotent to portray the measure of the horror, which shook the people for ten days and nights and the traces of which were written indelibly on the face of the city and its inhabitants. No flight of imagination will ever succeed in measuring and describing the gruesome scenes of horror in the many buried air shelters. Posterity can only bow its head in honour of the fate of these innocents, sacrificed by the murderous lust of a sadistic enemy...." --The Police President of Hamburg.


    "Three-hundred times as many people died in Hamburg during the ten-day blitz as died in Coventry during the entire course of the war. "Not even Hiroshima and Nagasaki, suffering the smashing blows of nuclear explosions, could match the utter hell of Hamburg." --Martin Caidin, The Night Hamburg Died, Ballantyne Books.



    THE CHILDREN


    "Of the children these dreadful nights, what can be said? Their fright became horror and then panic when their tiny minds became capable of grasping the fact that their parents could no longer help them in their distress. They lost their reason and an overwhelming terror took over. Their world had become the shrieking centre of an erupting volcano from which there could be no physical escape. Nothing that hell offered could be feared more.

    By the hand of man they became creatures, human in form but not in mind. Strangled noises hissed from them as they staggered pitifully through the streets in which tar and asphalt ran as streams. Some of these tiny creatures ran several hundred feet. Others managed only twenty, maybe ten feet. Their shoes caught fire and then their feet. The lower parts of their legs became flickering sticks of flame. Here were Joans of Arcs.... thousands of them. All who had perished unjustly on the fires of the Middle Ages were as nothing when compared with what was happening that night.

    The sounds of many were unintelligible and undoubtedly many more called for their parents from whom they were parted by death or by accident. They grasped their tortured limbs, their tiny burning legs until they were no longer able to stand or run. And then they would crash to the ground where they would writhe in the bubbling tar until death released them from their physical misery."
    --Martin Caidin.



    DRESDEN


    "The long suppressed story of the worst massacre in the history of the world. The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted." --Rt. Hon. Richard.H.S Crossman, M.P., Labour Government Minister



    AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW: PHOSPHOROUS

    "Men, women and children too, ran hysterically, falling and stumbling, getting up, tripping and falling again, rolling over and over. Most of them managed to regain their feet and made it to the water. But many of them never made it and were left behind, their feet drumming in blinding pain on the overheated pavements amidst the rubble, until there came one last convulsing shudder from the smoking 'thing' on the ground, and then no further movement." --Martin Caidin, The Night Hamburg Died.


    "Phosphorous burns were not infrequent."
    --U.S Strategic Bombing Survey


    "Phosphorous was used 'because of its demonstrated ability to depress the morale of the Germans'."
    --Official British source


    "Even the senseless and highly culture-destroying terror acts, against for example, Lubeck and Dresden, carried out by the Allied pilots, should have been investigated and brought before a proper court of justice."
    --Major General H. Bratt, Royal Swedish Army


    "A nation which spreads over another a sheet of inevitably deadly gases or eradicates entire cities from the earth by the explosion of atomic bombs, does not have the right to judge anyone for war crimes; it has already committed the greatest atrocity equal to no other atrocity; it has killed - amidst unspeakable torments - hundreds of thousands of innocent people."
    --Hon. Lydio Machado Bandeira de Mello, Professor of Criminal Law; author of more than 40 works on law/philosophy

    "As for crimes against humanity, those governments which ordered the destruction of German cities, thereby destroying irreplaceable cultural values and making burning torches out of women and children, should also have stood before the bar of justice." --Hon Jaan Lattik. Estonian statesman, diplomat and historian.
    [Source]



    NIEMALS NICHTS VERGESSEN!
    NEVER FORGET ANYTHING!
    GLÖMMA ALDRIG INGENTING!


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    Account Inactive bocian's Avatar
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    All of these things happened at the hands of the Germans in Poland first.

    It is horrifying to see the loss of life on all sides... but who do we have to thank?
    The Poles of course, they started the war, they wanted to destroy German culture and exterminate the German race.

    It's amazing that the Germans today have the audacity to claim land and property in Poland.
    Oh yes they have every right because they were the victims.

    I do not mean to belittle the slaughter that happened in Dresden and other places in Germany.

    However, you only have yourselves to thank.

    German cities were destroyed, as were Polish. Germany was pumped full of American money, Poland was pumped full of Lenin.

    It is no surprise really that our Allies the " knights of democracy " were just as bad as the Germans.

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    Post Re: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    All is fair in love and war.

    When you fight a war, you fight to win it, not lose.
    Whatever tricks and tactics the Allies used against Axis forces, I'm sure that the axis didn't hold back in retaliation ( if it ever was retaliation, because it's obvious who started the war ).

    During the WWI 25% of Serbian population was killed, similar happened during WWII, half a million Serbs were killed in concentration camps by Germans and Croats. Rest assured that Serbia had absolutely no plans to invade Germany, so why was Serbia invaded? Why were thousands of Serbian children shot or gassed.

    I live in a city where there is an ex concentration camp, until 10-15 years ago thousands were still alive to tell what they saw.
    Jews never lived in Serbia in great numbers. Serbia was a kingdom, not a communist state, Serbia was attacked on april 6th 1941 by Germans, WITHOUT an official announcement of war.

    I'm truly apalled at the extent of damage and sorrow politicians are prepared to bring upon their own people. Civillians are the ones who suffered the most, and they suffered because of someone's sick ambitions.

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    A Fatal Assumption

    by Robert W. Martin

    "Wer das Weinen verlernt hatte, der lernte es wieder beim Untergang Dresdens" (They who had lost the ability to weep, learned it again at the destruction of Dresden)
    -- Gerhart Hauptmann


    On the evening of February 13, 1945, one of the most controversial air-raids of all time commenced over the skies of Dresden, Germany. Within two days, over 1,300 allied bombers had completely destroyed the medieval city with a massive firestorm, killing well over 200,000 people. However, a storm still rages in academic circles as to the true results of the bombing and the necessity of the attack.

    In early 1945, the population of Dresden had more than doubled due to the massive influx of refugees fleeing the advancing Russians. Due to the lack of housing, many of these people were living in the streets. However, people continued to pour into the overwhelmed city because many concluded that since Dresden was primarily a hospital city, it had virtually no military value and would escape the area bombing campaigns of the allies. This idea, coupled with the rumor that a niece of Churchill lived in the city and that Dresden was to be spared as an administrative center for the Allies after the war, left the residents and administrators of the city with a strong sense of security and safety. In fact, the impression of the safety of Dresden was so pervasive, the German general staff had the city?s flak batteries transferred to the Eastern front and air-raid shelters were not strengthened. These assumptions were to have fatal consequences unmatched in the history of warfare - a death toll that was significantly higher than the 71,879 at Hiroshima.

    On the evening of August 24, 1940, German bombs fell on London for the first time. Twenty-four hours later, forty-three aircraft from the RAF Bomber Command retaliated by bombing Berlin ? an event that was considered to be impossible by the German High Command. The Blitz was on. In response to this massive German air campaign, the Allied Air Force developed a permanent policy, proposed by Charles Portal of the British Air Staff and approved by Air Marshall Arthur Harris, to pursue the constant bombing of all German cities and towns. Known as area bombing, it was the opinion of the RAF that these incessant attacks would shatter the morale of German population, thus bringing an end to the war. Successful attacks were launched against hundreds of targets including Berlin, Hamburg, Nuremberg, and Cologne. However, when the Bomber Command turned towards Dresden, the stage was set for the largest, single event massacre in military history.


    Operation Thunderclap


    Operation Thunderclap was devised to not only support the advancing Russian army, but to also break the spirit of the German people. In order to enhance the overall effect, the bombers were to focus their efforts on Dresden. This city, with its medieval architecture and wooden structures, would best reproduce the effect that was stumbled upon during the bombings of Hamburg in July and August 1943, when firestorms caused the deaths of some 50,000 people.

    A firestorm is created when hundreds of fires are simultaneously lit, causing the air above a particular area to become super-heated. As this air rises, cold air rushes in along the ground with tremendous force to fill the vacuum. Anything caught within this wave is pulled into the fire and immediately incinerated.

    Shortly after 10:00 p.m. on February 13, 1945, 773 Avro Lancaster bombers began unloading hundreds of thousands of incendiary bombs on Dresden. Just as at Hamburg, this first wave succeeded in creating a firestorm which uprooted trees, ripped the roofs off of houses, and sucked the air out of the air-raid shelters. According to R. H. S. Crossman, "Most of those who remained below ground were to die painlessly, their bodies first brilliantly tinted bright orange and blue, and then, as the heat grew intense, either totally incinerated or melted into a thick liquid sometimes three or four feet deep."

    With the raid seemingly over, emergency units and survivors clogged the streets. However, at 1:22 a.m., the second wave struck. This attack was intended not only to fuel the fire storm, but also to destroy the units trying to extinguish the blaze. Approximately 10,000 people fled to the Grosse Garten, the royal park of Dresden, which, from the air, looked like a one and a half square mile black rectangle. It was this rectangle that the much larger second wave targeted. Within minutes, the fire storm raged though the park ripping up trees and tearing apart people.

    In The Destruction of Dresden, David Irving states that: ??the firestorm was undoubtedly the most devastating that had ever been experienced in Germany. All the signs observed in Hamburg were repeated in Dresden multiplied in scale many times. Giant trees were uprooted or snapped in half. Crowds of people fleeing for safety had suddenly been seized by the tornado and hurled along whole streets into the seat of the fires; roof gables and furniture that had been stacked on the streets after the first raid were plucked up by the violent winds and tossed into the centre of the burning inner-city."

    From the effects of the second wave, the hospitals began to burn. Doctors, nurses, and volunteers began to evacuate the wounded from the burning buildings and began to lay them along the banks of the Elbe. Then the third wave hit. This attack consisted of 211 American Flying fortresses and many Mustang fighters providing escort. Some have speculated that these Mustangs dove over the survivors on the Elbe and strafed those fleeing from the city.


    Casualty Figures


    As the flames subsided, the residents of Dresden discovered that 24,866 out of the 28,410 houses in the inner city were destroyed - an area of total destruction extending over eleven square miles. As for the death toll, German authorities gave up trying to work out the precise total after some 35,000 bodies had been recognized, labeled, and buried while hundreds of cellars and air raid shelters remained unopened.

    There was far too great a risk for the spread of disease to allow the proper identification of the dead. So, a massive funeral pyre was constructed in the Altmarkt where thousands more were burned.

    With such a large amount of undocumented refugees in the city, coupled with the number of people who were outright incinerated or ripped apart by the violent winds, it is impossible to come up with an exact casualty figure. Some scholars have claimed that approximately 30,000 perished, but this estimate is far too low. Even the German authorities who, a few days after the attack, put the total somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000 could have underestimated the final amount. By way of clarification, on the night of the raid, there were approximately 1,250,000 people in the city. After the fire storm subsided, there were just under 370,000. Certainly, the majority of the 800,000 refugees were successful in fleeing Dresden. However, it is entirely justifiable to assume that approximately one quarter of these individuals actually perished in the flames. Therefore, an amount which was closer to reality, which according to American historians was mere propaganda, was provided by Dr. Goebbels -- 260,000.


    Source: http://militaryhistory.about.com/cs/worldwar2/a/dresdenfirestor.htm









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    Post Re: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    Well Germany started the war so who is to blame? On the very first day of the war the Germans sunk a British civilian luxury cruiser, followed a few days later by sending the luftwaffe in to carpet bomb central Warsaw. The idea that the Germans were blameless is silly, its a manifestation of the victim culture that i despise so much.

    We (the British) have done bad things and had bad things done against us. So have the Germans. Thats life my friend.
    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
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    Post Re: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    Does the saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" mean anything?

    The killing of innocent civilians is abhorrent. But, surely we must not forget the horrific crimes inflicted on the civilain population by the Germans? Surely these crimes far outweighed the bombings of German cities?.....
    Let them hate as long as they fear.

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    Post Re: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    Allied Terror was the only appropriate answer to German Aggression.

    I am sure Hitler had in mind German Civilian casualties before he decided to imbark on his plans of European Conquest. The German people for going along with Hitler only paid a "Fair" Price for their ambitions to be the Masters of Europe.

    Those Extreme measures were necceary to take Hasten the End of WWII. And get people to feel a repugance for War.

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    Post AW: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    Wasn´t WWI started by a Serb nationalist?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Member Awar's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Allied Terror is Marching Proud: The BLITZ. Who really started it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    Wasn´t WWI started by a Serb nationalist?
    Just as much as the war in Iraq has to do with 9/11.
    If by 'Serb nationalist' you mean a misguided youth, the member of an obscure organization whose funding was traced to the court in Vienna...

    http://faculty.ucc.edu/egh-damerow/world_war_i.htm

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    Post AW: Yet another thread split thanks to Dr.Brandt.

    Up to this day, the Balkans always have been the powder keg of Europe and were the detonator of WWI.
    Without WWI there wouldn´t have been any sequel.
    You had your share.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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