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Thread: The Dresden Holocaust: Lest We Forget

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    THE DRESDEN RAIDS From Mr. David Irving


    Allied Forces in Dresden


    The professional liars who act on behalf of the official historiography of the Federal Republic of Germany shamelessly reduce the death toll of the Dresden holocaust by several hundreds of thousands.



    On the other hand, nobody disputes that more than 12.000 houses in the center of the city were reduced to dust during the hellish firestorm. In view of the fact that, in addition to the 600.000 inhabitants of Dresden, another 600.000 people (refugees from Breslau) had found shelter in the overcrowded city, one can safely assume that each of these 12.000 houses contained no fewer than 50 people.


    But of these houses virtually nothing remained, and the people who had been dwelling in them were transformed into ashes due to a heat of 1600 degrees Celsius. The deniers of the German Holocaust brazenly claim that only 35.000 persons perished in Dresden. Considering that a superficies of 7 x 4 kilometers, to wit 28 square kilometers, was completely destroyed, this "politically correct” figure would imply that less than 1, 5 persons died on each thousand square meters! In February 2005 a commission of "serious” historians further reduced this figure, claiming that only 24.000 Germans had been killed in Dresden. But anybody familiar with the character of the political system of Germany knows that these "serious historians” are nothing but vulgar falsifiers of history who are paid for preventing the breakthrough of the truth with more and more bare-faced lies.


    The figure of 35.000 dead only represents the small part of the victims who could be fully identified. Erhard Mundra, a member of the "Bautzen committee” (an association of former political prisoners in the GDR), wrote in the daily newspaper Die Welt (12.2. 1995, page 8): "According to the former general staff officer of the military district of Dresden and retired lieutenant colonel of the Bundeswehr, D. Matthes, 35.000 victims were fully and another 50.000 partly identified, whereas further 168.000 could not be identified at all.” It goes without saying that the hapless children, women and old people whom the firestorm had transformed into a heap of ashes could not be identified either.


    In 1955 former West German chancellor Konrad Adenauer stated: "On 13 February 1945, the attack on the city of Dresden, which was overcrowded with refugees, claimed about 250.000 victims.” (Deutschland heute, edited by the press and information service of the federal government, Wiesbaden 1955, page 154.)


    In 1992, the city of Dresden gave the following answer to a citizen who had inquired about the death toll: "According to reliable information from the Dresden police, 202.040 dead, most of them women and children, were found until 20 March. Only about 30% of them could be identified. If we take into account those who are missing, a figure of 250.000 to 300.000 victims seems realistic.”(letter by Hitzscherlich, Sign: 0016/Mi, date: 31 - 7 - 1992.)


    At the time of the attack, Dresden had no anti-aircraft guns and no military defense. It possessed no military industry at all. The city served as a shelter for refugees from the East. The roofs were marked with a red cross.


    The German cities became huge crematoria


    In that horrible night from 13 to 14 February 1945, the biggest war criminal of all time, Winston Churchill, had almost 700.000 incendiary bombs dropped on Dresden – in other words, one bomb for two inhabitants. On 3 March 1995, Die Welt commented this fact: "When the cities became crematoria… Professor Dietmar Hosser from the institute for construction material, massive construction and fire prevention deems it highly probable that the temperatures above ground reached up to 1600 degrees Celsius.” The deadly "liberation” came from the skies.


    The genocide of the German nation destroyed "80% of all German cities with more than 100.000 inhabitants”. The air forces of the Allied war criminals dropped "40.000 tons of bombs in 1942, 120.000 tons in 1943, 650.000 tons in 1944 and another 500.000 tons in the four last months of the war in 1945” (Die Welt, 11 February 1995, page G1).


    The Germans did not begin the bombing war!


    It should be reminded that Great Britain and France declared war on the German Reich on 3 September 1939, and that England began the terror bombing against the German civilian population as early as two days after its declaration of war. On 5 September 1939 the first raids took place against Wilhelmshaven and Cuxhaven; on 12 January 1940, Westerland/Sylt was bombed. Two weeks later, on 25 January, the Supreme Command of the Wehrmacht forbade air raids against Britain, including her ports, an exception being made for the docks of Rosyth. On 20 March, Kiel and Hörnum/Sylt were attacked with 110 explosive and incendiary bombs, which hit and destroyed a hospital. In April 1940, British bombers attacked further towns devoid of military importance. On 11 May 1940, one day after being named Prime Minister and Minister of Defence, Winston Churchill decided to order a massive air offensive against the German civilian population; however he did not inform his own people of his decision. On 18 May 1940, the Supreme Command of the Wehrmacht reported more meaningless British attacks on non-military aims and warned Britain of the consequences.


    Not before 14/15 November 1940 did the Luftwaffe first attack a British city – Coventry with its important military industry. This happened several months after the start of the British terror bombing against civilian targets in Germany. The raid claimed about 600 victims.


    Air-warfare expert Sönke Neitzel concludes: "Indisputably during the first years of the war all heavy attacks of the German Luftwaffe against cities were planned as military blows and cannot be defined as terror raids.” (Darmstädter Echo, 25 – 9 – 2004, p. 4)


    Historians: "The British and American peoples share the burden of guilt for the genocide of the Germans”


    In September 1988, military historians from five countries met at a conference in Freiburg. The event had been organized by the Institute for Military Research of the Bundeswehr. During a week, American, British, German, French and Italian specialist discussed various aspects of air warfare in the Second World War. After the conference, the daily newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine published a detailed and highly interesting article. Under the headline "Bombing the Cities”, the author, Professor Günter Gillessen, wrote: "It is a remarkable fact that the Wehrmacht stuck to the traditional principles of moderate warfare until the very end, whereas the two Western democracies resorted to a revolutionary, radical and reckless type of air warfare.” Another interesting conclusion the historians arrived at was the following: "It cannot be disputed that the principles of international law forbade total carpeting bombing … The historians considered the indiscriminate bombing as an abomination, but refused to lay the whole guilt on Air Marshall Sir Arthur Harris or the Bomber Command. According to them, the entire staff of the RAF, but even more the political leaders, especially Churchill and Roosevelt, plus the majority of their peoples shared the burden of guilt.”


    Churchill wanted to roast German refugees


    On 13 February 1990, forty-five years after the destruction of Dresden, British historian David Irving spoke at the Dresden "Kulturpalast". In his speech, Irving quoted the war criminal Winston Churchill: "I don't want any suggestions how to destroy militarily important targets around Dresden. I want suggestions how blasting the Germans in their retreat from Breslau." (Minute by A.P.S. of S. - Air Chief Marshal Sir Wilfrid Freeman- Jan 26, 1945 in "Air Historical Branch file CMS.608") But for Churchill, roasting the Germans was not enough. On the morning after the firebombing, he ordered his "Tiefflieger" (strafers, low-flying planes) to machine-gun the survivors on the beaches of the river Elbe.Churchill’s systematic war of extermination against the German people included plans for the destruction of every house in every German city. "’If it has to be, we hope to be able to destroy nearly every house in every German city.’… In March 1945 Churchill began to doubt the wisdom of bombing German cities ‘simply for the sake of increasing the terror’, but the terror continued.” (Die Welt, 11 February 2005, p. 27)



    The German elite accuses the victims


    Whereas the butcher Churchill actually felt some belated remorse for his war of extermination against the civilian population of Germany, the despicable German post-war elite awarded him the Karlspreis (Charlemagne prize) of Aachen. Churchill accepted this prize in Aachen, one of the countless cities his air-force had devastated, thereby burning alive countless human beings.


    Since then, the elite of the German vassal state has not changed. They continue to praise the murderers and to revile the victims. On the eve of the fiftieth anniversary of the destruction of his city, the mayor of Dresden, Ingolf Rossberg, did not shrink from heaping abuse on the German holocaust victims; he practically justified the murder of hundreds of thousands (most of them women, children and wounded soldiers in the hospitals) plus the annihilation of irreplaceable cultural treasures: "60 years after the devastating bombing, which claimed tens of thousands of victims, mayor Ingolf Rossberg warned against misunderstanding Dresden as an ‘innocent city’.” (Die Welt, 12 February 2005, Internet version).


    Thus spoke the mayor of a city which had received streams of people, animals and carriages like a caring mother. The streets and squares of Dresden were filled with refugees, the meadows and parks had been transformed into huge camps. When the fatal hour approached, about 1.130.000 people were living in Dresden. The result of the attacks was even more murderous than the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.



    Only the German victims are guilty, not their murderers!



    As American, British, German, French and Italian historians ascertained at the Freiburg conference in 1988, not only the main war criminals Churchill and Roosevelt bear the guilt for history’s worst atrocity. The majority of the British and the American population were not blameless either.


    The German weekly Der Spiegel stated in its 1/1995 issue: "About six million Germans were killed." As a matter of fact, the actual figure was about fifteen million. But although even the anti-German Spiegel admits that six million Germans were put to death, the German elite only bemoans Jewish victims.



    On 12 February 1995, Ernst Cramer wrote in Die Welt (page 12): "When commemorating the victims, we should stop asking about guilt.” And what had the politically super-correct former German president, Roman Herzog, to say about who was guilty of the German genocide? Speaking in Dresden on 13 February 1995, Herzog chose to insult the victims by stating: "It is meaningless to discuss if the bombing war, the inhumanity of which nobody disputes, was legally justified or not. What are such discussions good for, considering that fifty years have elapsed?” (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 14 February 1995, p. 1)


    But when it comes to monstrously exaggerating the Auschwitz death toll (according to the well-known journalist Fritjof Meyer, three and a half million Auschwitz victims were simply invented in order to denigrate the German people) the professional hypocrites and liars never say: "It is meaningless to discuss this… What are such discussions good for, considering that so and so many years have elapsed?” As a matter of fact, all leading German politicians claim that Germany is guilty in all eternity. Even the unborn Germans are guilty!



    Two measures


    Let us resume: Not even those responsible deny that the German cities were transformed into crematoria during World War Two. The total amounts of bombs dropped on the German cities has been confirmed by the criminals themselves and is therefore credible. That six million Germans were killed, was confirmed by the anti-German Spiegel and by official statistics, although the real figure is about 15 million. Nevertheless every liar under the sun apparently has the right to affirm that the allied terror bombings claimed only a handful of victims. These brazen falsifiers of history have nothing to fear from the German justice.



    The biggest mass murder in history


    The "democrats”, who claim to have "liberated” the German people from Hitler, brought nothing but terror and destruction. In Dresden, they murdered several hundreds of thousands people in one single hellish night and destroyed countless cultural treasures. Women who were giving birth to children in the delivery rooms of the burning hospitals jumped out of the windows, but within minutes, these mothers and their children, who were still hanging at the umbilical cords, were reduced to ashes too. Thousands of people whom the incendiary bombs had transformed into living torches jumped into the ponds, but phosphorus continues to burn even in the water. Even the animals from the zoo, elephants, lions and others, desperately headed for the water, together with the humans. But all of them, the new-born child, the mother, the old man, the wounded soldier and the innocent animal from the zoo and the stable, horribly perished in the name of "liberation".



    Source: 13 February 1945: Approximately 500,000 German...
    whiteresister.com›…german-refugees…allied…dresden


    The real figure is at least 500,000.
    Lest we forget
    , 2019.

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  3. #222
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    75 Anniversary of the annihilation of Dresden.

    Firestorm Bombing Over Dresden Germany






    13 February 1945, the first RAF planes appeared in the cloudless skies above.

    There were 630,000 inhabitants in Dresden. Refugees fleeing the Red Army swelled the population of Dresden to 1,300,000.


    Up to 21 minutes the great old classic city of Dresden.
    29 minutes the bombing begins.
    43 minutes Churchill planned to roast the Germans.
    107 & 113 Dresden after the bombing
    108 & 109 look at some of the funeral Pyres and consider what was left of Dresden and ask what does more than 25,000 mean?
    1hr 13 40 figure for dead 202,040. Real estimate 350,000 to 500,000.


    If ever there was a War Crime the annihilation of Dresden was it. Every year the MSM say 25,000 died. Recently MSM have changed this to ‘more than’ 25,000. Remember DRESDEN.





    One newspaper account published in a German paper, Eidgenosse, (1-3-86) lists 480,000 dead. That count looks like this:

    37,000 babies and toddlers
    46,000 school age children
    55,000 wounded and sick in the hospitals, including their doctors,
    nurses and other personnel
    12,000 rescue personnel
    330,000 dead simply described as "men and women."

    Just think of Hiroshima. That city's atom casualties were 71,879.

    During the entire war, England suffered less than 50,000 casualties from bombings.

    380 persons died in bombing raids on the British munitions and aircraft producing town of Coventry, England - a raid which was declared a "German war crime".

    The clean-up crews flowing in after the Allied murderers were gone could not bury all of the dead. So they took railroad ties, made an emergency grid, piled the dead on top of each other and burned them in the open air - soldiers, young and old women, boys in short pants, girls with long braids, Red Cross nurses. Babies. While all of Germany shivered for lack of fuel, these pyres burned day and night. Even concentration camp inmates helped in this macabre ritual for weeks.

    Dresden - The Worst War Crime Of WWII - 600,000 Dead

    https://rense.com/general85/ddes.htm
    Dresden - The Worst War Crime Of WWII - 600,000 Dead ... Dresden was one of the most beautiful cities in Germany, dubbed the "Florence of the Elbe" because of its world-renowned collection of Baroque architecture. It was known as a showplace of culture. It had no military bases, no major communication centers or heavy industry.


    The holocaust was just a cover up fable for:

    (1) the establishment of the jewish state of israel in Palestine and

    (2) the war crimes of the Allies: Russians, Americans, British, French and others;

    (a) The only real holocaust in Europe was against Germans in their firebombed cities. The minimum estimate of 1 to 2 million women and children murdered in the civilian bombing of Germany – Dresden, Hamburg, etc. The worst war criminals [1941-1945] were the American Air Force fire bombing squadrons. There is better and more proof for the Trojan War than for the holocaust.

    (b) The ethnic expulsion of 13.5 million Germans from East Prussia, Danzig, Silesia, Pomerania and the Sudetenland as being " A tale of murder and horror, old men starving on the roads, young girls raped in boxcars". The unbelievable brutality and atrocities during the expulsion and deportation of a defenceless German civilian population of 13 million, most of them women and children because their men between 16-60 years were in Allied POW camps, from the territory of todays Poland between 1945-55. In fact it was clearly the largest "ethnic cleansing" of all times.

    (c) The systematic elimination and murder of 1.5 million German soldiers / POWs by starvation, thirst, no sanitation and no medical provision in Eisenhower’s open enclosure DEATH CAMPS
    600,000 more under the French.

    (d) The continuous mass rape by the Russians after the war of 10 million German women aged 8 to 80

    (e) The post war starvation of the remaining German population – kept for years on a starvation diet of 400 -700 calories.

    (3) There was no 6,000,000. The 6 million Holocaust was nothing but forced labour. What about 6 million NAMES... if there was a holocaust.

    13 II 2020.

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    Don't care about this or that other Hollowco$t. Is that quite alright with you? Christians and Yids both cry too much about their problems and want everyone to feel sorry for them, then there are the "Righteous" like Irving who try to kiss up to them by shaming the other side, to look edgy taking potshots at Churchill and Roosevelt. I hated that my high school curriculum wasted my time with Negroid and Yehudoid sob stories. I'm no more impressed by Aryan tears, than any other war or its conduct has moved me to care, unless it's about my own nation state. Since my ancestors were on the other side of the conflict, I won't virtue signal about it. Feel free to go Stormfront on me, because you already are conflating issues about loyalties and betrayals. I hate WWII and everything to do with it.

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  7. #224
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    Photos of Dresden



    The bombing of Dresden created a firestorm that destroyed the centre of the city

    Dresden was not unique. Allied bombers killed tens of thousands and destroyed large areas with attacks on Cologne, Hamburg and Berlin, and the Japanese cities of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


    Dresden: The World War II bombing 75 years on, in pictures ...





    AfD co-leader Tino Chrupalla told Der Spiegel weekly that his grandmother and father recalled seeing 'mountains of bodies' after the firebombing.


    He said he believes the victims numbered 'around 100,000', prompting critics to accuse him of historical revisionism.




    As the noise of the planes died away, people started to appear from the few houses that were still intact, while other survivors clawed their way up through huge mounds of rubble. Dead bodies are burned at the Altmarkt near the Victory Monument (Germaniadenkmal). 25th February 1945







    People gather in front of the Frauenkirche for the opening event of the human chain on the occasion of the 75th anniversary of the destruction of Dresden in the Second World War, in Dresden today






    People stand in a human chain demonstration in front of Frauenkirche, Church of Our Lady, to remember the victims of bomb attacks at the end of WW2 in Dresden, Germany today




    People standing along the Elbe River across from the historic Dresden city center link hands to create a human chain in commemoration of the 75th anniversary of the Allied firebombing of Dresden today in Dresden, Germany.


    Germans gather to remember the 25,000 victims of Dresden ...13 II 2020.




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  9. #225
    Senior Member Nordic Angel's Avatar
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    Now, exactly 75 years ago, my grandma, her little brother and their mother (my great-grandmother) were standing in their small village 30 kilometers away from Dresden. They were crying and screaming as they saw the whole nightsky over Dresden was illuminated and burning red - knowing that my grandma's older brother and his wife were in the middle of the city as they lived there. My grandma always cried when she told me about this, even decades after it happened, as she loved her brother very much.

    A candle for my great-uncle and his wife and for all the other ca. 250.000 people who died in this hellfire and became the victims of this barbaric anglo-american warcrime and genocide of the German people. Never forgive, never forget.


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    Dear Nordic Angel,
    I am really sorry for what your family went through. I wish there was never a war between our countries.
    You are right to never forgive, never forget. What happened was unimaginable horror.

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    Dresden Police Report March 22 1945 202 040 mostly women and children








    A website visitor in North Wales has donated fifty dollars for our website this morning. That's nice. "Keep up the good work," He encourages me: "You will be proved right in the end."

    Back at the Public Record Office I continue to turn the pages of the immense volumes of decoded SS and police messages, released from top secret files only a few years ago. I have now read nearly fifty volumes and I have reached the year 1945. This particular volume has over 2,000 pages of flimsy paper, with ten or fifteen much-abbreviated decoded German messages typed on each page: the contents are madly out of sequence, bound into the volume in the order they were decoded weeks or months after the war.


    I methodically read each one, and type a copy of those messages I may need for my Heinrich Himmler biography. Hard sledding, but it is worth it. Their value as a source is immense -- nothing here has been written just for post-war window-dressing (as some 1944 and 1945 documents clearly have been): nobody guessed that we would ever be reading these secret code messages.



    AS THE day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. In 1961, when I was writing my first book "The Destruction of Dresden", I was confidentially approached by a German schoolteacher, Hanns Voigt; he said that after the horrific British air raid, he was put in charge of Dresden's Missing Persons Bureau, Abteilung Tote - the Deceased Section. He built an immense card index, and he kept a diary; and he estimated for me that the final death toll in Dresden would have reached 135,000. This was the figure that I, and after me Kurt Vonnegut and others, always used.

    Other city officials gave the same kind of estimates. (Later this year I shall post on my website a full dossier on the Dresden death toll.)

    Voigt's estimate was a thorn in the side of both German Governments -- both east and west. They had always played down, even trivialised, the air raid casualty figures caused by the British saturation bombing (even as they hyped the numbers killed in the Jewish tragedy).

    Only last year a German Government commission consisting of, not just conformist but kow-towing, line-toeing, bowing-and-scraping historians and Nickeseln, agreed that the death roll in the two hour man-made 1945 holocaust in Dresden was far lower, "only 25,000" (or, if possible, even less).

    Without doing any in-depth research -- such scholars are far too important for that -- they relied on the police chief's early March 1945 report (which in fact I was the first to find), because it indicated lower figures than Hanns Voigt's for dead and missing.

    In the Deborah Lipstadt Trial, her highly-paid chief expert Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans (left) vilified Voigt; he implied that Voigt was a liar, he questioned whether the Missing Persons bureau had ever existed, and he called him a Nazi with an agenda. (Voigt had, we now know, been given a good post-war position in the Soviet Zone before emigrating legally to the West, so the "Nazi" allegation seems unlikely.) Aping Evans, Mr Justice Gray accused me in his 333-page Judgment of falsifying history.

    I was not invited to make any submissions to the Dresden Commission. No surprises there. This afternoon, my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.




    http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dr... de_600.jpg

    At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 -- the day in fact when I turned eight, I remember it vividly -- the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in code to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs:

    Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

    The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.


    So Voigt was telling the truth.

    Even the "hundred thousand" figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as "missing".

    Another thing seems brutally clear: those listed as "missing" -- in addition to those bodies formally identified and buried or incinerated by this date -- were never going to return. To use the words of the telegram I found yesterday (see above) they were dead, "carbonised," and unidentifiable.

    What do these decoded messages tell us about our own lazy and conformist historians, and about "Skunky" Evans in particular? He, and they, would never have found them. It has taken me these many years. Go the extra mile. Eventually, as this morning's Welshman said, "You will be proved right in the end".



    So Irving is right that at the very least even the British figured the toll was into six figures.



    THE JUSTFICATION OF THE BOMBING OF DRESDEN? - CODOH
    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=921&start=15
    25/10/2013 · With the 1st Army, May 3 (Delayed) -- The Allied air raid on Dresden on Feb. 13-14 killed 300,000 persons, according to a report by Dresden police to a group of 600 -- British and French -- prisoners who were given passes by the Germans to enter the American lines.





    The Destruction of Dresden by David Irving


    P105- 6

    1,600,000 Silesians fled into the German Reich. Silesians represented 80% of the displaced people crowding into Dresden on the night of the triple blow; the city which in peacetime had a population of 630,000 citizens was by the eve of the attack so crowded with Silesians, East Prussians and Pomeranians from the Eastern front, with Berliners and Rhinelanders from the West, with Allied and Russian prisoners of war, with evacuated children’s settlements, with forced labourers of many nationalities that the increased population was now between 1,200,000 and 1,400,000 citizens, of whom not surprisingly, several hundred thousand had no proper home and of whom none could seek the protection of an air-raid shelter. The Dresden city authorities had issued a total of 1,250,000 ration cards to the city’s population and refugees by the time of the air-raids.



    P225- 6

    Immediately after the war, for sound political reasons, the Russian occupation authorities published an announcement that the raids on Dresden had cost the lives of 35,000 people, and the first post-war Lord Mayor of Dresden. Walter Weidauer, supported them. In fact the documentation suggests very strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum of 100,000 and a maximum of 250,000. Hans Voigt himself estimated that the final number could have been 135,000, but it now appears that there were other offices working parallel to him on the registration of the victims, for example a police unit with an office just behind the Zwinger. All the evidence is that the figure was much higher.

    Shortly after the raids a competent authority in Berlin for air-raid relief and welfare services accepted an estimate of between 120,000 and 150,000, while according to records in the Federal Ministry of Statistics at Wiesbaden immediately after the attacks the local authorities in Dresden were estimating the figure at 180,000 to 220,000. On the 22 February 1945, nine days after the attacks, during a tour of Allied P.o.W. camps in the Dresden area, Mr Walter Kleiner, the Swiss leader of the International Red Cross delegation, was in the presence of witnesses informed by the Dresden city commandant, General Karl Mehnert, that the current death-toll was 140,000 and some days later Professor R. Fetscher , a civil defence medical expert later shot by the S.S. told a senior medical officer that the number was 180,000. After the war Mehnert was ‘amazed’ at the low figure of 35,000 published in the centre German press by the authorities.

    A further piece of evidence is a confidential Dresden police report signed by Colonel Grosse and dated 22nd March 1945, according to which the death toll was already 202,040 and was expected to rise to 250,000 by the time all the victims had been recovered. The East German historian, Professor Max Seydewitz also obtained a copyof this document, but quoted only a couple of sentences from it, suggesting it was a forgery.

    Colonel Grosse himself died in French captivity in 1949, but he frequently mentioned the quarter of a million death-toll to his widow.

    Remarkable how obsessive British Justice is with admission of guilt and wrong
    then there must be regret with an apology.


    As regards Dresden, Churchill was the one to blame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagdmesser View Post













    Remarkable how obsessive British Justice is with admission of guilt and wrong
    then there must be regret with an apology.


    As regards Dresden, Churchill was the one to blame.


    I joined facebook to connect with my paternal relatives. I wrote a little about Dresden, Germany. My aunt replied that it happened all because "of one very evil man", she means Hitler. I responded with your quote, "As regards Dresden, Churchill was the one to blame".

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    My aunt responded favorably. Instead of arguing with me she says she is reading up on Dresden. She said she doesn't know much about history.

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    War on the lies, liars and ww2






    The Dresden raid was the perfect execution of the Bomber Command theory of the double blow: two waves of bombers, three hours apart, followed the next day by a massive daylight raid by more bombers and escort fighters. Only a handful of raids ever actually conformed to this double-strike theory, and those that did were cataclysmic…


    …The fires from the first raid alone had been visible more than 100 miles from Dresden…


    …many historians estimate that temperatures reached 1,500° Centigrade (2,732° Fahrenheit). Since temperatures in a cremation chamber normally reach only 1,400 degrees to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit, large numbers of people in Dresden would have been incinerated from the extreme heat generated in the firestorm.







    Lying About Hitler Book Review




    British historian Richard J. Evans wrote a 740-page report to help defend Deborah Lipstadt and her publisher, Penguin Books, against a libel suit filed by David Irving in London. Evans’s book Lying About Hitler is based on this report and attempts to show that David Irving has repeatedly engaged in the falsification of the historical record. Evans writes that much material from his report had to be omitted to keep his book to a reasonable length[1]



    In order to keep my analysis to a reasonable length, I will focus solely on Chapter Five of Lying About Hitler concerning the Allied bombings of Dresden.


    David Irving in front a poster titled ‘Apocalypse 1945, The Destruction of Dresden’.




    POPULATION OF DRESDEN DURING BOMBINGS



    Many conflicting estimates have been made concerning the number of deaths during the raids of Dresden on February 13-14, 1945. Richard Evans estimates that approximately 25,000 people died during these bombings.[2]


    While exact figures of deaths in the Dresden bombings can never be obtained, some historians estimate a death toll at Dresden as high as 250,000 people. A major reason for the discrepancies in the estimates of deaths in the Dresden bombings is that the estimate of refugees in Dresden on the night of the bombings varies widely among historians.


    Marshall De Bruhl writes in his book Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden:


    Nearly every apartment and house [in Dresden] was crammed with relatives or friends from the east; many other residents had been ordered to take in strangers. There were makeshift campsites everywhere. Some 200,000 Silesians and East Prussians were living in tents or shacks in the Grosser Garten. The city’s population was more than double its prewar size. Some estimates have put the number as high as 1.4 million.

    Unlike other major German cities, Dresden had an exceptionally low population density, due to the large proportion of single houses surrounded by gardens. Even the built-up areas did not have the congestion of Berlin and Munich. However, in February 1945, the open spaces, gardens, and parks were filled with people.

    The Reich provided rail transport from the east for hundreds of thousands of the fleeing easterners, but the last train out of the city had run on February 12. Transport further west was scheduled to resume in a few days; until then, the refugees were stranded in the Saxon capital.[3]



    David Irving writes in The Destruction of Dresden:


    “Silesians represented probably 80% of the displaced people crowding into Dresden on the night of the triple blow; the city which in peacetime had a population of 630,000 citizens was by the eve of the air attack so crowded with Silesians, East Prussians and Pomeranians from the Eastern front, with Berliners and Rhinelanders from the West, with Allied and Russian prisoners of war, with evacuated children’s settlement, with forced laborers of many nationalities, that the increased population was now between 1,200,000 and 1,400,000 citizens, of whom, not surprisingly, several hundred thousand had no proper home and of whom none could seek the protection of an air-raid shelter.”[4]


    A woman living on the outskirts of Dresden at the time of the bombings states:


    “At the time my mother and I had train station duty here in the city. The refugees! They all came from everywhere! The city was stuffed full!”[5]


    Frederick Taylor writes in his book Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 that Dresden had been accepting refugees from the devastated cities of the Ruhr, and from Hamburg and Berlin, ever since the British bombing campaign began in earnest. By late 1943 Dresden was already overstretched and finding it hard to accept more outsiders. By the winter of 1944-1945, hundreds of thousands of German refugees were traveling from the east in an attempt to escape the Russian army.[6]



    The German government regarded the acceptance of Germans from the east as an essential duty. Der Freiheitskampf, the official German organ for Saxony, urged citizens to offer temporary accommodation:


    There is still room everywhere. No family should remain without guests! Whether or not your habits of life are compatible, whether the coziness of your domestic situation is disturbed, none of these things should matter! At our doors stand people who for the moment have no home—not even to mention the loss of their possessions…[7]



    Alexander McKee writes in regard to Dresden: “Every household had its large quota of refugees, and many more had arrived in Dresden that day, so that the pavements were blocked by them, as they struggled onwards or simply sat exhausted on their suitcases and rucksacks”. For these reasons, no one has been able to put a positive figure to the numbers of the dead, and no doubt no one ever will.[8]


    However, Frederick Taylor writes that it was general policy in Dresden to have refugees on their way to the west within 24 hours. Fleeing the Russians was not a valid justification for seeking and maintaining residence in Dresden. Taylor writes that the best estimate by Götz Bergander, who spent time on fire-watching duties and on refugee relief work in Dresden, was that approximately 200,000 nonresidents were in Dresden on the night of February 13-14, 1945. Many of these refugees would have been living in quarters away from the vulnerable center of Dresden.[9]


    Richard Evans also refers to the Dresden historian Friedrich Reichert, who estimates that only 567,000 residents and 100,000 refugees were in Dresden on the night of the bombings. Reichert quotes witnesses who state that no refugees were billeted in Dresden houses and that no billeting took place in Dresden’s parks or squares. Thus, Reichert estimates that the number of people in Dresden on the night of the bombings was not much greater than the official figure of Dresden’s population before the war.[10]


    Reichert’s estimate of Dresden’s population during the bombings is almost certainly too low. As a RAF memo stated before the attack:


    “Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also [by] far the largest unbombed built-up area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees and troops alike, but also to house the administrative services displaced from other areas…”[11]


    The report prepared by the USAF Historical Division Research Studies Institute Air University states that

    “there may probably have been about 1,000,000 people in Dresden on the night [of] the 13/14 February RAF attack.”[12]


    I think the 1 million population figure cited in this report constitutes a realistic and conservative minimum estimate of Dresden’s population during the Allied bombings of February 13-14, 1945.



    DID ONLY 25,000 PEOPLE DIE IN THE DRESDEN BOMBINGS?



    If the 25,000 death toll figure at Dresden estimated by Richard Evans is accurate, we are left with the very odd result that Allied air power, employed for exemplary purposes to its full measure and with no restrictions, over an especially vulnerable large city near the end of the war, when Allied air superiority was absolute and German defenses nearly nonexistent, was less effective than Allied air power used to be in previous more difficult operations such as Hamburg or Berlin. I think the extensive ruins left in Dresden suggest a degree of utter destruction not seen before in Germany.


    The Dresden bombings created a massive firestorm of epic proportions, and were not a botched mission with only a fraction of the intended results achieved. The fires from the first raid alone had been visible more than 100 miles from Dresden.[13] The Dresden raid was the perfect execution of the Bomber Command theory of the double blow: two waves of bombers, three hours apart, followed the next day by a massive daylight raid by more bombers and escort fighters. Only a handful of raids ever actually conformed to this double-strike theory, and those that did were cataclysmic.[14]


    Dresden lacked an effective network of air raid shelters to protect its inhabitants. Hitler had ordered that over 3,000 air raid bunkers be built in 80 German towns and cities. However, not one was built in Dresden because the city was not regarded as being in danger of air attack. Instead, the civil air defense in Dresden devoted most of its efforts to creating openings between the cellars of the housing blocks so that people could escape from one building to another. These openings exacerbated the effects of the Dresden firestorm by channeling smoke and fumes from one basement to the next and sucking out the oxygen from a network of interconnected cellars.[15]


    The vast majority of the population of Dresden did not have access to proper air raid shelters. When the British RAF attacked Dresden on that fateful night, all the residents and refugees in Dresden could do was take refuge in their cellars. These cellars proved to be death traps in many cases. People who managed to escape from their cellars were often sucked into the firestorm as they struggled to flee the city.[16]

    The British were fully aware that mass death and destruction could result from the bombing of Germany’s cities. The Directorate of Bombing Operations predicted the following consequences from Operation Thunderclap:

    “If we assume that the daytime population of the area attacked is 300,000, we may expect 220,000 casualties. Fifty per cent of these or 110,000 may expect to be killed. It is suggested that such an attack resulting in so many deaths, the great proportion of which will be key personnel, cannot help but have a shattering effect on political and civilian morale all over Germany….”[19]


    The destruction of Dresden was so complete that major companies were reporting fewer than 50% of their workforce present two weeks after the raids.[20] By the end of February 1945, only 369,000 inhabitants remained in the city. Dresden was subject to further American attacks by 406 B-17s on March 2 and 580 B-17s on April 17, leaving an additional 453 dead.[21]



    HOW WERE THE DEAD BODIES DISPOSED?



    Richard Evans asks:
    “And how was it imaginable that 200,000 bodies could have been recovered from out of the ruins in less than a month? It would have required a veritable army of people to undertake such work, and hundreds of sorely needed vehicles to transport the bodies. The effort actually undertaken to recover bodies was considerable, but there was no evidence that it reached the levels required to remove this number.”[28]


    Evans does not recognize that the incineration of dead bodies on the Dresden market square, the Altmarkt, was not the only means of disposing dead bodies at Dresden. A British sergeant reported on the disposal of bodies at Dresden:


    They had to pitchfork shriveled bodies onto trucks and wagons and cart them to shallow graves on the outskirts of the city. But after two weeks of work the job became too much to cope with and they found other means to gather up the dead. They burned bodies in a great heap in the center of the city, but the most effective way, for sanitary reasons, was to take flamethrowers and burn the dead as they lay in the ruins. They would just turn the flamethrowers into the houses, burn the dead and then close off the entire area. The whole city is flattened. They were unable to clean up the dead lying beside roads for several weeks.[29]



    Historians also differ on whether or not large numbers of bodies in Dresden were so incinerated that they could no longer be recognized as bodies. Frederick Taylor mentions Walter Weidauer, the high burgomaster of Dresden in the postwar period, as stating


    “there is no substance to the reports that tens of thousands of victims were so thoroughly incinerated that no individual traces could be found. Not all were identified, but—especially as most victims died of asphyxiation or physical injuries—the overwhelming majority of individuals’ bodies could at least be distinguished as such.”[30]


    Other historians cite evidence that bodies were incinerated beyond recognition. Alexander McKee quotes Hildegarde Prasse on what she saw at the Altmarkt after the Dresden bombings:


    What I saw at the Altmarkt was cruel. I could not believe my eyes. A few of the men who had been left over [from the Front] were busy shoveling corpse after corpse on top of the other. Some were completely carbonized and buried in this pyre, but nevertheless they were all burnt here because of the danger of an epidemic. In any case, what was left of them was hardly recognizable. They were buried later in a mass grave on the Dresdner Heide.[31]



    Marshall De Bruhl cites a report found in an urn by a gravedigger in 1975 written on March 12, 1945, by a young soldier identified only as Gottfried. This report states:


    I saw the most painful scene ever….Several persons were near the entrance, others at the flight of steps and many others further back in the cellar. The shapes suggested human corpses. The body structure was recognizable and the shape of the skulls, but they had no clothes. Eyes and hair carbonized but not shrunk. When touched, they disintegrated into ashes, totally, no skeleton or separate bones.

    I recognized a male corpse as that of my father. His arm had been jammed between two stones, where shreds of his grey suit remained. What sat not far from him was no doubt mother. The slim build and shape of the head left no doubt. I found a tin and put their ashes in it. Never had I been so sad, so alone and full of despair. Carrying my treasure and crying I left the gruesome scene. I was trembling all over and my heart threatened to burst. My helpers stood there, mute under the impact.[32]


    The incineration of large numbers of people in Dresden is also indicated by estimates of the extreme temperature reached in Dresden during the firestorm. While no one took the actual temperature reached during the Dresden firestorm, many historians estimate that temperatures reached 1,500° Centigrade (2,732° Fahrenheit).[33] Since temperatures in a cremation chamber normally reach only 1,400 degrees to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit[34], large numbers of people in Dresden would have been incinerated from the extreme heat generated in the firestorm.


    Historians also differ on whether or not bodies are still being recovered in Dresden. For example, Frederick Taylor writes:


    “Since 1989—even with the extensive excavation and rebuilding that followed the fall of communism in Dresden—no bodies have been recovered at all, even though careful archaeological investigations have accompanied the redevelopment.”[35]


    Marshall De Bruhl does not agree with Taylor’s statement. De Bruhl notes that numerous other skeletons of victims were discovered in the ruins of Dresden as rubble was removed or foundations for new buildings were erected. De Bruhl writes:


    One particularly poignant discovery was made when the ruins adjacent to the Altmarkt were being excavated in the 1990s. The workmen found the skeletons of a dozen young women who had been recruited from the countryside to come into Dresden and help run the trams during the war. They had taken shelter from the rain of bombs in an ancient vaulted subbasement, where their remains lay undisturbed for almost 50 years.[36]


    CONCLUSION



    The destruction from the Dresden bombings was so massive that exact figures of deaths will never be obtainable. However, the statement from Richard Evans that an estimated number of 25,000 people died in the Dresden bombings is almost certainly too low. Based on a comparison to the Pforzheim bombing and the other available evidence, a death toll in Dresden of 250,000 people is easily possible. Evans’s book Lying About Hitler does nothing to discredit David Irving as a Dresden historian.






    To learn more about the Origins, Atrocities and Aftermath of WWII discover ‘Germany’s War’.




    ENDNOTES

    [1] Evans, Richard J., Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, pp. xi-xii.
    [2] Ibid., p. 177.
    [3] DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, p. 200.
    [4] Irving, David, The Destruction of Dresden, New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1964, p. 98.
    [5]Ten Dyke, Elizabeth A., Dresden: Paradoxes of Memory in History, London and New York: Routledge, 2001, p. 82.
    [6] Taylor, Frederick, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, New York: HarperCollins, 2004, pp. 134, 227-228.
    [7] Ibid., p. 227.
    [8] McKee, Alexander, Dresden 1945: The Devil’s Tinderbox, New York: E.P. Dutton, Inc., 1984, p. 177.
    [9] Taylor, Frederick, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, New York: HarperCollins, 2004, pp. 229, 232; see also Evans, Richard J., Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, p. 174.
    [10] Evans, Richard J., Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, p. 174.
    [11] Taylor, Frederick, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, New York: HarperCollins, 2004, pp. 3, 406.
    [12]http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/facts-about-dresden-bombings.html.
    [13] Cox, Sebastian, “The Dresden Raids: Why and How,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, pp. 44, 46.
    [14] DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, pp. 204-205.
    [15] Neitzel, Sönke, “The City Under Attack,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, pp. 68-69.
    [16] Ibid., pp. 69, 72, 76.
    [17] Cox, Sebastian, “The Dresden Raids: Why and How,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, pp. 52-53.
    [18] Davis, Richard G., Carl A. Spaatz and the Air War in Europe, Washington, D.C.: Center for Air Force History, 1993, p. 557.
    [19] Hastings, Max, Bomber Command, New York: The Dial Press, 1979, pp. 347-348.
    [20] Cox, Sebastian, “The Dresden Raids: Why and How,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, p. 57.
    [21] Overy, Richard, The Bombers and the Bombed: Allied Air War over Europe, 1940-1945, New York: Viking Penguin, 2014, p. 314.
    [22] Ibid., p. 158.
    [23] Friedrich, Jörg, The Fire: The Bombing of Germany, New York, Columbia University, 2006, p. 94.
    [24] Ibid., p. 91. See also DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, p. 255.
    [25] Neitzel, Sönke, “The City Under Attack,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, p. 77.
    [26] DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, p. 210. See also McKee, Alexander, Dresden 1945: The Devil’s Tinderbox, New York: E.P. Dutton, Inc., 1984, p. 112.
    [27] Russell, Alan, “Why Dresden Matters,” in Addison, Paul and Crang, Jeremy A., (eds.), Firestorm: The Bombing of Dresden, 1945, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2006, p. 162.
    [28] Evans, Richard J., Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial, New York: Basic Books, 2001, p. 158.
    [29] Regan, Dan, Stars and Stripes London edition, Saturday, May 5, 1945, Vol. 5, No. 156.
    [30] Taylor, Frederick, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, New York: HarperCollins, 2004, p. 448.
    [31] McKee, Alexander, Dresden 1945: The Devil’s Tinderbox, New York: E.P. Dutton, Inc., 1984, p. 248.
    [32] DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, pp. 253-254.
    [33] Alexander McKee cites estimates of 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit (McKee, Alexander, Dresden 1945: The Devil’s Tinderbox, New York: E.P. Dutton, Inc., 1984, p. 176).
    [34]http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.html#hot.
    [35] Taylor, Frederick, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, New York: HarperCollins, 2004, p. 448.
    [36] DeBruhl, Marshall, Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden, New York: Random House, Inc., 2006, p. 254.



    Written To Discredit David Irving: ‘Lying About Hitler’ By ...

    https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2018/11/17

    16 II 2020.



    Those using the cellars as Air-raid Shelters were roasted alive and then they melted. Horrendous.


    Germany remembers Allied firebombing of Dresden 70 years on

    https://sg.news.yahoo.com/germany-re...esden-70-years...
    Germany remembers Allied firebombing of Dresden 70 years on. By Michelle Martin. ... unleashing an inferno that melted people and reduced vast areas of the "Jewel of the Elbe" to ash and rubble. Helga Skoczowsky was nine at the time. When alarms sounded, she took refuge in the cellar of their apartment building, where they listened as the ...

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