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Thread: The Dresden Holocaust: Lest We Forget

  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth View Post
    I joined facebook to connect with my paternal relatives. I wrote a little about Dresden, Germany. My aunt replied that it happened all because "of one very evil man", she means Hitler. I responded with your quote, "As regards Dresden, Churchill was the one to blame".
    I've seen this trick pulled at times. While the Anglo-American Air-Forces have bombed Dresden to create a fire storm, Adolf Hitler and by implication the Germans were to blame for it. Classical example of Victim-Perpetrator inversion. Of course also an attempt to deflect to other debates like the origins of the war, "The Holocaust", who started bombing on cities, etc. If this all gets soberly analysed with the facts, it still doesn't look to good for the blame-shifting, but most people can't or won't do that.

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  3. #232

    Don't Believe the Lies About the Dresden Casualties - At Least 250K Were Incinerated Alive - Mike Walsh.

    It is ironic that those who screech loudest about holocaust denial are 6 million times guiltier of being in denial of confirmed holocausts. It is because Allied holocausts are so undisputed that their only recourse is censorship ~ and denial.

    Across Europe, especially in France, Germany, Italy and the Low Countries, thousands of cities and their unfortunate civilian populations was fireball incinerated. Dresden and hundreds of other cities and towns in Europe were literally turned into horrific crematories.

    Many metropolis never recovered from the Allied infernos. Whatever city and town landscapes you see in Germany today is alien to what it was in our lifetime.

    In respect of Dresden, the Federal Republic of Germany put the figure of dead at 35,000. This is still not enough to fill any small city’s football arena. On February 14, 1945, the Saxon city’s population, similar to that of say Liverpool, was teeming with refugees fleeing the ravishing Red Army then being urged on by Winston Churchill.

    It is reasonable to assume that Dresden was host to 1,500,000 doomed souls when the first of the RAF and USAAF carpet bombing raids commenced on St Valentine’s Night 1945.

    Shortly after reunification, the Dresden city administration at that time also represented the survivors’ point of view. COMPACT presents an original document of the Landeshauptstadt Dresden / Stadtverwaltung from July 31, 1992, signed by the Area Manager Karin Mitscherlich. It clearly states:

    In a vain attempt to provide more credible figures a document was eventually produced that appeared to concede that 202,000 people, mostly civilians had died in the Allied crematoria:

    ‘According to reliable information from the Dresden police, 202,040 dead, mostly women and children, were recovered by March 20, 1945. Only 30% of these could be identified. Including the missing, a figure of 250,000 to 300,000 victims is likely to be realistic. Appalling, many of the hillocks of corpses were later misrepresented by the Allied media as victims of German internment camps.’

    However, scholarly revisionism has proved that this document was fake. The false document was yet another vain attempt to sidestep the true figure of those incinerated, which could be set at four times that number who perished.

    ‘Dresden 1945’, has compiled a large number of sources
    in the chapter ‘Facts and Figures’ original documents, extracts from contemporary press releases, finds in Soviet encyclopaedias, plus testimonies from SED politicians, and in Issue published that the overwhelming majority assume over 100,000 victims of the terrorist attack.

    An exact number is simply impossible because during the holocaust many of the victims were burned to ashes or literally evaporated in their cellars. The ludicrous spin on the allied spun casualty figures spurred historians on to further investigations: Corresponding new research has not yet been completed.

    Concerned voices were raised about the incineration not just of this great Saxon city but of the satanic-like scale of the holocaust that was rained down on Germany, France, Italy and the Low Countries by the USAAF and RAF.

    ‘One of the most unhealthy features of the bombing offensive was that the War Cabinet – and in particular the Secretary for Air, Archibald Sinclair, felt it necessary to repudiate publicly the orders which they themselves had given to Bomber Command.’ ~ R. H. S Crosman. Labour Minister of Housing. Sunday Telegraph, October 1 1961.

    ‘Kassel suffered over three-hundred air raids, some carrying waves of 1,000 bombers; British by night, American by day. When on April, 4, 1945, Kassel surrendered, of a population of 250,000, just 15,000 were left alive.’ ~ Jack Bell, Chicago Daily News Foreign Service, Kassel, May 15 1946.

    ‘Countless smaller towns and villages had been razed to the ground or turned into ghost towns, like Wiener Neustadt in Austria, which emerged from the air raids and the street fighting with only eighteen houses intact and its population reduced from 45,000 to 860.’ In the Ruins of the Reich, Douglas Botting. George, Allen & Unwin. London. 1985.

    OTHER CITIES incinerated with most of their populations: Berlin, Hamburg, Dortmund, Essen, Dresden, Frankfurt, Nuremberg, Dusseldorf, Hanover, Bremen, Wuppertal, Vienna, Duisburg. Munich, Magdeburg, Leipzig, Mannheim, Stuttgart, Kiel, Gelsdenkirchen, Bochum, Aachen, Wurzburg, Darmstadt, Krefeld, Munster, Munchen Gladbach, Braunschweig, Ludwishafen, Remscheid, Pforzheim, Osnabruck, Mainz, Bielefeld, Gieben, Duren, Solingen, Wilhelmshaven, Karlsruhe, Oberhausen, Heilbronn, Augsburg, Hamm, Knittelfeld, Luneburg, Cuxhaven, Kulmback, Hagen, Saarbrucken, Freiburg, Graz, Koblenz, Ulm, Bonn, Bremerhaven, Wanne-Eickel, Worms, Lubeck, Schweinfurt, Kleve, Wiener Neustadt, Wiesbaden, Paderborn, Bocholt, Hanau, Hildesheim, Emden, Siegen, Pirmasons, Hale, Bayreuth, Kreuznach, Witten, Aschaffenburg, Kaiserlautern, Gladbeck, Dorsten, Innsbruck, Neumunster, Linz, Klagenfurt, Reutlingen, Recklinghausen, Reuel, Regensburg, Homberg, Elmshorn, Wetzel, Villach, Hamelin, Konigsberg, Moers, Passau, Solbad Hall I. T, Coburg, Attnang-Puchheim, Friedrichshafen, Frankfurt-Oder, Danzig, Bozen, Chemnitz, Rostock, Schwerte, Plauen, Rome, Bad Kreuznach, Neapel, Genoa, Mailand, Turin.

    London Times reviewer on the British Official History of the Strategic Air Offensive: ‘One closes these volumes feeling, uneasily, that the true heroes of the story they tell are neither the contending air marshals, nor even the 58,888 officers and men of Bomber Command who were killed in action.

    They were the inhabitants of the German cities under attack; the men, women and children who stoically endured and worked on among the flaming ruins of their homes and factories, up till the moment when the allied armies overran them.’

    ‘A sense of national embarrassment about the dark side of a virtuous war’ may be the explanation for the British Bombing Survey Unit’s silence. Such a sentiment may account for the disdain in which ‘Bomber Harris’ was sometimes later held. Perhaps it even explains the near silence about area bombing in the six-volume war history by Winston Churchill.’ ~ Are We Beasts? Churchill and the Moral Question of World War 11 ‘Area Bombing’ Christopher C. Harmon, Naval War College Newport, Rhode Island. The U.S.

    Don't Believe the Lies About the Dresden Casualties - At Least 250K Were Incinerated Alive

    Mike Walsh

    Feb 13 2020

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  5. #233

    How George Orwell justified killing German civilians in the second world war

    Eric Blair (better known as George Orwell) in characteristic pose.

    During the second world war, Britain’s national daily newspapers usually supported the government’s portrayal of the national war effort as flawlessly heroic. This was a just war – and supported as such even by many Britons who, until 1940, had supported pacifist organisations such as the Peace Pledge Union.

    But Tribune, the weekly newspaper founded by wealthy Labour MPs Sir Stafford Cripps and George Strauss and edited by Aneurin Bevan, was bolder. Promoting itself as “Fresh and Fearless” Tribune relished controversy. In September 1943, it celebrated the recruitment of an expert controversialist as its literary editor: George Orwell.

    Orwell soon seized upon a topic the wartime coalition had worked assiduously to conceal: the deliberate killing of German civilians in
    colossal RAF raids on German cities. His pretext was the publication by Vera Brittain, the feminist andpre-war pacifist, of Seed of Chaos, her pungent denunciation of obliteration bombing. Supporting her case with eyewitness accounts by neutral Swiss and Swedish newspaper correspondents, Brittain recounted tales of corpses “all over streets and even in the tree-tops” and women “demented after the raids, crying continuously for their lost children”.

    Influential voice for Pacifism: Vera Brittain.

    Detecting sanctimony, Orwell attacked head on with a piece entitled “As I Please”. There was, he wrote, “something very distasteful in accepting war as an instrument and at the same time wanting to dodge responsibility for its more obviously barbarous features”.

    Talk of “limiting or humanising” total war was “sheer humbug”, Orwell insisted. Warming to his theme, he condemned Brittain’s “parrot cry” against “killing women and children” and insisted: “It is probably better to kill a cross section of the population than to kill only the young men.” If allied raids had killed 1.2 million German civilians, “that loss of life has probably harmed the German race somewhat less than a corresponding loss on the Russian front”.

    Tribune’s readers were not unanimous in their support for Orwell. A flow of critical letters arrived but the literary editor did not budge. He “did not feel that mere killing is all important”. There was, he suggested, a moral case for killing German civilians. It brought home the nature of modern war and might make such conflict less likely.

    Hard truths

    Orwell’s stance was in stark opposition to government policy. This was to pretend that civilian deaths were rare collateral damage in raids meticulously targeted at German industrial and military infrastructure. In fact, Orwell’s defence challenged the Air Ministry as directly as Brittain’s moral outrage. Orwell recognised that area bombing was intended to cause mass civilian casualties and routinely did so.

    Military historian and author Martin Middlebrook describes the British government’s statements about area bombing between 1942 and 1945 as “a three-year period of deceit on the British public and world opinion”. The areas attacked were “nearly always city centres or densely populated residential areas”. Britain had invested vast resources to build a fleet of heavy, four-engine bombers among which the Avro Lancaster was king. Mass raids against cities including Cologne, Essen and Hamburg soon demonstrated that the Lancaster’s brave, vulnerable crews could not hit targets with any precision.

    Air Marshall Sir Arthur Harris pleaded with the prime minister to admit that raids involved the deliberate murder of civilians. In October 1943, he wrote to Churchill’s friend, the air minister Archibald Sinclair, demanding bombing tactics be “unambiguously and publicly stated”, writing:

    That aim is the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers and the disruption of civilised community life throughout Germany.

    Harris wanted ministers to tell the public that the deaths of women and children were not a “byproduct of attempts to hit factories”. Such slaughter was one of the “accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy”.

    Even when the Associated Press described Allied raids on Dresden as deliberate “terror bombing, the government continued to deploy bland euphemisms. By recognising that RAF Bomber Command killed civilians as a conscious act of policy, Orwell and Tribune were playing with fire. They were not censored or condemned because it suited ministers to tolerate dissent in small circulation weekly titles. Such robust debate burnished Brittain’s democratic credentials and reassured her American allies.

    The last word

    Brittain was not reassured. Writer Richard Westwood has shown that she resented Orwell’s attacks so intensely that she would revisit their dispute years after his death in order to “win her argument with Orwell in retrospect and when he could not respond”. This she attempted in Testament of Experience by quoting selectively from a report Orwell sent from Germany for The Observer in April 1945.

    Brittain suggests he retracted his support for obliteration bombing. In fact, Orwell described damage done by allied bombs and argued that the Allies should not impose harsh reparations. A punitive approach would leave Germans dependent on international aid. He did not apologise for the RAF’s work. Instead, he repeated his defence that “a bomb kills a cross-section of the population whereas the men killed in battle are exactly the ones the community can least afford to lose”.

    Orwell’s candour about area bombing was a robust example of dissenting wartime journalism. It demonstrated Tribune’s editorial courage and that the wartime coalition understood it could not reconcile defence of democracy with suppression of free speech.

    Brittain was wrong to misrepresent him. His work illustrates how intelligent publications with thoughtful readers upheld Britain’s democratic tradition in wartime. Such journalism was not restricted to the left. The Spectator and The Economist played comparable roles on this and other subjects.

    How George Orwell justified killing German civilians in ...

    24 V 2020.

    Every year British MSM give the death toll for Dresden as 25,000, and occasionally 'about 25,000' or even less occasionally 'more than 25,000'. So that the bombing of Dresden and 25,000 are synonymous.

    Still to this day no honesty from the British MSM about the death toll resulting from ‘the deliberate killing of German civilians in colossal RAF raids on German cities’.

  6. #234
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    Its difficult to fathom how the UK with its pro German attitudes for much of the 1800s could develop such a toxic level of animosity by the early 1900s.

    "Our English race is the German race; for though our Norman fathers had learned to speak a stranger’s language, yet in blood, as we know, they were the Saxon's brethren both alike belonging to the Teutonic or German stock - Thomas Arnold

    "For it was in the free forests of Germany that the infant genius of our liberty was nursed" - Henrey Bulwer, 1st Baron Fallin and Bulwer.

    How these sentiments gave way to the prevailing attitudes of the early half of the 20th century are beyond me.

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  8. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corbie View Post
    Its difficult to fathom how the UK with its pro German attitudes for much of the 1800s could develop such a toxic level of animosity by the early 1900s.
    How these sentiments gave way to the prevailing attitudes of the early half of the 20th century are beyond me.
    I see the Anglo group as hyper-competitive, jealous powers who must lead first and dominate over others based on "cultural fittest." Much of the colonization showed the extreme competitiveness as the royal courts came to power or eventually lost important wars. Many US Germans cringe at the Anglo wars and hoped to escape the brutality and wrath on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean by lobbying against the entrance of European conflicts over land and dynasties. Hitler overestimated the Germanic tribes to unite and never really developed peaceful models to support a true Germanic EU like a United Germania (not an EU today) to compete on a global level. It may be our dream to have peace and unite our tribes, but the various German tribes have spoken differently. Now, Germanic identities have been reduced to tax- slave laborers toward foreigners, soccer painted faces, and bickering over two devastating wars. You have a second layer of administrative bureaucracies- the EU now. It is obvious that Germany was "over-punished" since the Allies had no idea how to "discipline" or treat the non-combating German citizens in a humane manner. Ike was the worst in handling the matters of postwar. I won't even start that conversation of de-Nazification by starving 10,000 babies under his food blockade. Ike did warn us at least about the rising industrial complex that beg for war production. At the end, Britain and US will not allow Germany to take a top position for better or worse. German culture was almost lost after WW2 completely as I have spoken with a few survivors from Berlin.

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