View Poll Results: Scottish independence?

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  • Yes

    141 67.79%
  • No

    44 21.15%
  • Undecided

    23 11.06%
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Thread: Should Scotland Be Independent?

  1. #131
    Senior Member Angelcynn Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    That article you're using to support the idea against Scottish independance is using a poll that is five years out of date.

    Use something more recent, eh?
    Where on Earth are you getting those figures from?

    For something recent, this article is from August 11th, 2011.

    The gulf in state spending between Scotland and England has hit a record £1,600 per head.

    Government spending in Scotland averaged £10,212 per person last year – £1,624 per head more than in England.

    The staggering figures, buried in Treasury documents, reveal the gap increased by more than 15 per cent in only a year.
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1kxGpzpTH

    Scotland is heavily subsidised by England and would be on a headlong journey to join the ranks of the PIGS if it left England and had to pick up it's own bills.
    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn
    Yes, it's quite cowardly to desert England like that. However, I'm fairly sure Scotland is not doing this because England is a wreck from multicultural decay and too much Third World immigration.
    They're doing it because there's nothing whatsoever awe-inspiring about modern Britain, nothing grandiose, nothing regal, nothing brilliant enough at all to inspire pride, much less identification and cohesion. Modern Britain is an incompetently-governed, identityless joke, and it's this modern husk of its former self that some Scots wish to extricate themselves from. But instead of admitting this, they re-invent history (and probably even believe their own reinvention), and in this revisionism they project their current attitude toward modern Britain into an erroneous understanding of the past.

    From what I've seen of the Scottish independence party, they have a leftist slant and even want Scotland to be a multicultural society (basically giving themselves the "victim label" by placing Scots in the ranks of Asians and negroes who have also been "oppressed" by evil England). So I don't think Scotland is leaving the UK because of the reasons you're saying.
    I wasn't talking about the SNP, but the psychology of the average Scot who supports independence. I'd wager very few share the leftist politics of the SNP, but their contempt for 'Britain' (read: modern Britain) trumps all.

    Britain's patheticness transcends racial issues alone. And at any rate, this lack of identity with something inarguably crappy occurs on a fundamental, unconscious level, so many Scots probably either can't articulate or mis-articulate the actual reasons for their disidentification with Britain. They revile against the 'package' of modern Britain, which in part includes its multiculture, but they probably don't understand that fact, because it's unconscious and expresses itself only on a gut level, so they reject Britain for reasons they don't understand while naively accepting the SNP's designs to recreate those same conditions in a new Scotland. The above doesn't describe most members of the SNP, but it does sum up the perspective of the average not-really-leftist SNP supporter.

    It's not as if Britain of that time would've allowed them to leave.
    But there was no reason whatsoever a middle-class Scot would want to leave the British Empire any more than a middle-class Norfolkian would. Internal divisions in Britain for the last few centuries ran purely along class boundaries. Scotland was easily as middle-class in percentage of population as England was (and as large a chunk of its working-class population today is descended from Irish immigrants as England's working-class). A middle-class Scot identified more with a middle-class Englishman than with a lower-class Scot (and certainly more than with a working-class Irishman), which is why the social foundation for even conceiving of a breaking up of Britain was for the longest time non-existent.

    -------

    To put it another way: Nobody sells their shares when the market shows no signs of going anywhere but up. The Scots were heavily invested in the British Empire. To speak of 'Britain vs Scotland' (as is so common) is to prejudice the discussion: Scotland was Britain, as much as was England. Only after the 'market crash' do different mentalities begin to form, the blame game opens up, people cash in, check out, break up formerly healthy business relationships etc. etc. That analogy sums up the results of the death of the British Empire pretty flawlessly.

  3. #133
    Senior Member Linden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    According to a YouGov poll conducted in May 2007, Scottish support for Independence remains low, at 28% – with 57% against the idea. Votes for the SNP in Holyrood elections don’t seem to have translated into votes for Independence. Recent polls suggest that enthusiasm for the proposal is actually higher in England, with support reaching as high as 43%.
    Thank you for sharing these statistics. As one Scottish member has so eloquently stated (), these statistics are aging slightly and the support for Scottish independence is growing rapidly on both sides of the border. However, they are still valid in the sense that a greater percentage of the English population wish to oust the Scots, whilst a large percentage of the Scottish population wish to preserve the union and retain strong links with the English.

    If I may refer to the results of a survey titled ‘Should Scotland remain in the UK?’ which was conducted in Lincoln (the East Midlands of England) in early January 2012, 73/115 people who took part in the survey believed that it was not in England best interests for Scotland to remain in the UK (32 believed that being in a union with Scotland did benefit us, whilst 10 were ‘unsure’). An increasing percentage of the English population perceives Scotland as a bottomless whole which is impossible to satisfy with money alone. We pump so much money in there, yet there is little sign of ‘life’, as it were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    Use something more recent, eh?
    Perhaps it would be to your benefit if you were to provide more recent statistics as opposed to criticising the statistics provided by others? Let’s maintain a certain level of decency to one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcynn Beorn View Post
    Scotland is heavily subsidised by England and would be on a headlong journey to join the ranks of the PIGS if it left England and had to pick up it's own bills.
    I think this is why Alex Salmond intends to hold a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014 instead of an earlier date. You may be fooled into thinking that Scotland relies heavily on its oil as a source of income, but oil exports are still very small and don’t generate much wealth, even for such a small economy. If the Scottish did choose to opt out of the union, in the current mess they’re in the country would fall flat on its face. Remember, the Scottish economy is far more fragile and at risk of collapse than that of the UK. Salmond is simply testing the waters. If the economy of the UK does not pick up in the near future, I am sure that you can say good bye to the referendum for now.
    Last edited by Linden; Monday, January 30th, 2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: The original post may have been construed as offensive to the more sensitive members of the forum.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    That article you're using to support the idea against Scottish independance is using a poll that is five years out of date.


    Use something more recent, eh?
    From this month. And the trend is still the same, more English support an independent Scotland then the Scots do.

  5. #135
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    You all seem to forget the fact that Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland are pretty gung-ho about letting us join them as a Nordic country. We would not be a part of Britain or the EU, and we would not be alone.
    What part of that is it that's flying straight over your heads?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    From this month. And the trend is still the same, more English support an independent Scotland then the Scots do.
    You use the Daily Mail, an English-based newspaper. They've also been known and are infamous for exaggerating the truth about things. They like to cry wolf on a lot of subjects.
    Not a very reliable source, once again.
    If I had the time, I'd post sources I know to be reliable.

    Though, that being said, I love how the majority of you ignored the quotes I posted from people who know what they're talking about, one of them being my Grandad.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Angelcynn Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    You all seem to forget the fact that Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland are pretty gung-ho about letting us join them as a Nordic country. We would not be a part of Britain or the EU, and we would not be alone.
    What part of that is it that's flying straight over your heads?
    To be honest i'm new to this thread, but i do travel to Scandinavia repeatedly every year, and i've never once even heard a Scandinavian talk about "welcoming" Scotland, let alone the entire region being "gung ho" about it.

    Also, if Scotland leaves the UK it will still remain in the EU. Without subsidising by English taxpayers, Scotland will have to undergo the same sort of public spending cuts that are causing riots on the continent, just to stop it's economy imploding immediately. Which part of this is flying over your head?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    You use the Daily Mail, an English-based newspaper. They've also been known and are infamous for exaggerating the truth about things. They like to cry wolf on a lot of subjects.
    Not a very reliable source, once again.
    If I had the time, I'd post sources I know to be reliable.

    Though, that being said, I love how the majority of you ignored the quotes I posted from people who know what they're talking about, one of them being my Grandad.
    So the Daily Mail isn't trustworthy because it's English, and the opinion poll takers are apparently all lying as well, even when they say that the English are more keen on Scottish independence than the Scots.

    But we should believe some random unattributed quotes you post up, some of which are from your family members?

    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
    I am the Teeth in the Darkness, the Talons in the Night.
    Mine is Strength... and Lust... and Power!
    I AM BEOWULF!

  8. #138
    Senior Member Linden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    You all seem to forget the fact that Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland are pretty gung-ho about letting us join them as a Nordic country. We would not be a part of Britain or the EU, and we would not be alone.
    It’s rather the reverse. Scotland is looking towards Scandinavia rather than the nations of Scandinavia looking towards Scotland. Will the Scandinavians embrace Scotland, or will it become another ‘want-to-be’ Scandinavian nation like Estonia? Hopefully we will see in the years to come. I just don’t see what Scotland possibly has to offer the nations of Scandinavia? The proposed 'super-grid' between Norway and Scotland has already received a round of laughter in Oslo. You must also remember that the SNP has shown extensive interest in joining the EU, too. Perhaps you will will improve ties with Sweden if you join the EU...and Bulgaria, Poland and Romania etc.

    There has been no mention that the Scots plan forge closer ties with Iceland or Finland as you claim. Only Scandinavia.

    If I may be so bold, I think you’ve got a little carried away in the moment. The idea of Scotland becoming a Nordic nation is a fairytale. I fail to understand how you've formed the opinion that the Scandinavian nations are particularly interested in Scotland joining their ranks. The Scandinavians (the Swedish in particular) most certainly are not ‘gung-ho’ about Scottish ‘Nordicisation’.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid Runa View Post
    Though, that being said, I love how the majority of you ignored the quotes I posted from people who know what they're talking about, one of them being my Grandad.
    I think you’re onto a losing argument when you begin to quote your Grandfather, unless of course he’s a member of the First Minister’s Council of Economic Advisers or a professor of Economics at the University of Oxford (both of which have been used as a source of information in this thread, it seems). I don’t doubt for one moment that your Grandfather is a knowledgeable individual, but armchair politics is hardly appropriate at present.

  9. #139
    Aka kentynet Northumbria's Avatar
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    It’s rather the reverse. Scotland is looking towards Scandinavia rather than the nations of Scandinavia looking towards Scotland. Will the Scandinavians embrace Scotland, or will it become another ‘want-to-be’ Scandinavian nation like Estonia?
    That's what I've noticed too. What's it to be Scotland? Celts or wannabe Nordics?
    I'm quite confused because last week they kept going on about how Celtic they all are.

    I just don’t see what Scotland possibly has to offer the nations of Scandinavia?
    Same here. I don't think Scandinavia has much to offer them neither, they are rather a quiet region of Europe.

    The proposed 'super-grid' between Norway and Scotland has already received a round of laughter in Oslo.
    Well it is understandable. Only the Scots could think that they stand a chance in selling overpriced electricity to a region which produces a surplus of its own. Someone didn't think that through very well.
    Such a grid would probably raise the price of electricity there because it would cost a lot to put in place.

    The Scandinavians (the Swedish in particular) most certainly are not ‘gun-ho’ about Scottish ‘Nordicisation’.
    Well its probably like how the real Irish see the plastic paddies, as rather a sad and pathetic attempt to mooch off their identity.

  10. #140
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    I don't think I know enough to say if I think they should become independant, I doubt it will happen though when it comes to it.

    I wonder what the new UK flag would be though, a mix of Welsh and English flags? I've always hated look of the union jack. I've read one of the original english symbols was a white dragon, so you could have the english and welsh dragons entwining one another. I doubt anything that cool would happen, we'd probably get some bongo drums and an arabic looking symbol with a rainbow.

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