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Thread: Why Are the Irish Not Considered Germanic/Nordic?

  1. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    If this indeed means pure brown eyes, it's robably somewhat high, yes. But likely only by 5-10 %.
    The difference could lie in differing colour perception in different populations because the percentages in that study are based on self-reported pigmentation.
    This is also the case with the next point:
    I think so. Many of the people reporting brown likely have hazel or a mixture of green/brown. Pure brown eyes are pretty rare in Ireland. But compared to the many blue-eyed folk they are around they might perceive it as brown.


    By northern European standards, Greeks are a dark population. But you have to keep in mind, that they themselves might perceive pigmentation differently.
    If you're mostly surrounded by people with black or very dark brown hair and you yourself happen to have medium brown(by northern European standards) hair, you're more likely to perceive and describe yourself as light brown or even dark blonde haired by the standards of your own people. Simply because few properly blond/fair people are around.
    That must be the case unless the survey was rigged and over represented blonde Greeks in the study which I doubt. In general it does seem that people who have darker hair/complexions tend to consider people with medium brown hair or lighter as "blonde". Perhaps this was the case with the ancient Greeks and Romans who described the ancient Celtic and Germanic peoples as "blonde". I'm sure they weren't all blonde, but to the ancient Greeks and Romans it may have appeared so.

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    Senior Member Sigebrond's Avatar
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    The distinction of Irish people is hugely exaggerated, Thomas Rowsell of survive the jive pointed this out once and he's probably done some articles/videos on it. They are probably only distinct as less integrated Celtic people, and as less integrated Celtic people it's easier to pinpoint their genetic links to Iberia (or so-called "Basque" ancestry, which is debatable).

    "Celtic" is much more a linguistic and regional distinction than an ethnic one, the Celts came from Austria, they were originally the same people as "Nordic" people, but due to their travels around Iberia especially, they took on some trace Mediterranean genes. Whether British Celts are fully or partly descended from Iberian Celts directly, or if they just mixed with them having both arrived in Britain in different times, is up for debate.

    English people still have a good portion of this "Celtic" ancestry, but we're still Nordic. Scotland and Wales aren't much more Celtic than we are ethnically, having been less divided in the first place being on the mainland and due to the blurring of ethnic borders over time and migration of English people into these countries (same applies to Northern Ireland).

    The Icelandic population is something like 40%-50% British on average, and given the nature of the Norse slave trade a lot of this heritage would have been Irish. I think we can credit this along with later trade links with the gradual dispersion of dark hair and dark eyes in Scandinavia, or some regions of Scandinavia at least. If Icelanders qualify as Nordic, then so do British people, the Irish included.

    Also worth pointing out that Ireland like Scotland has some Norse heritage.

  3. #533
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    The paddies are more closely related to the dons (i.e. the Spaniards) than they are to the Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc.
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

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    Senior Member Sigebrond's Avatar
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    The Irish are of mostly Germanic heritage just like modern Germans are. All that links them to the Mediterranean is trace genes. Genetic studies have never indicated they are southern European or have more in common with southern Europeans, they have simply manage to pinpoint specifically Iberian/"Basque" genes among the Irish especially. Using that as grounds for saying they "aren't Germanic" or are "Spanish" is like saying the Sami and even the Finns are ethnically Asian just because they have trace Mongoloid ancestry.

    Also worth stating the obvious that the Irish have mixed more with English and other Celtic populations over time (as well as some Norse ancestry in likelihood) and that likewise due to the Norse slave trade and natural dispersion of the Celts Germanic populations have taken on more Celtic traits (hence the presence of dark and red hair in Scandinavia). It's fair to say some but by no means all Irish people can show more prominent Celtic/Southern European traits, because such traits persist for a very long time, but it's pretty obvious they aren't that different from us or other Northern and Central Europeans ethnically. If Icelanders, Germans and Austrians are Germanic/Nordic, so are Irish, Scottish, Welsh and (not all) French people. Celtic identity is cultural and linguistic far more than it is ethnic or genetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    The Irish are of mostly Germanic heritage just like modern Germans are.
    This is one of the most disgusting bullshit that has been written on Skadi recently. I can understand that you do not like Germans, so you can call them "Nazis" or "Huns" or something. But do not tell lies about them. The Germans are not "just like" the Irish. One just has to take a short glimpse into the face and one can tell is that person German or Irish.

    There exists a certain racial type that is commonly, "non-scientifically" referred to as "Celtic" (red hair and very pale skin) and this type can be found in Ireland and in southern Germany. But even in southern Germany, this type is not predominant.

    The typical atlantid type which is so common in the British Isles is almost absent in Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    All that links them to the Mediterranean is trace genes. Genetic studies have never indicated they are southern European or have more in common with southern Europeans, they have simply manage to pinpoint specifically Iberian/"Basque" genes among the Irish especially.
    Yes, and what? Nobody says mediterranean (="southern european") is the same as atlantid. They are two different, distinct, and quite distinguishable races.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    Using that as grounds for saying they "aren't Germanic"
    They are not Germanic - full stop. They have adopted one Germanic language, for a number of reasons, that is all. In the near future, if the British government does not change its policy, they will lay off that language and revive the Irish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    or are "Spanish"
    Which idiot told you they are "Spanish"? They have just genetically something in common with people who live in today's Spain. As the negroes, who live in today's USA have something in common with those who live in Africa. But this doesn't make the negroes in USA "African".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    is like saying the Sami and even the Finns are ethnically Asian just because they have trace Mongoloid ancestry.
    "Asian" is no "ethnicity". Samis and Finns have certainly some mogolid genetic influx, which sets them apart from the Germanic Swedes.

  6. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebrond View Post
    The Irish are of mostly Germanic heritage just like modern Germans are.
    They share a common/similar genetic heritage from about 4.000 years ago but that doesn’t make the Irish “mostly Germanic” because that predates the formation of either cultural meta-ethnicities. The overwhelming majority of the Irish clearly aren’t of direct Germanic descent.

    All that links them to the Mediterranean is trace genes. Genetic studies have never indicated they are southern European or have more in common with southern Europeans, they have simply manage to pinpoint specifically Iberian/"Basque" genes among the Irish especially. Using that as grounds for saying they "aren't Germanic" or are "Spanish" is like saying the Sami and even the Finns are ethnically Asian just because they have trace Mongoloid ancestry.
    I don’t understand what is so hard to get about the fact, that not being Germanic does not equal being somehow Mediterranean or southern in some other way.

    That the British Celts are Iberian/Basque was some sensational “popular science” finding from more than a decade ago, based on the belief, that the R1b-P312 Y-haplogroup, common among both the Celts and the Iberians, was spread from an Iberian Late Glacial refugium. That however, has turned out to be “not even wrong” already years ago, as it is clearly from the Steppe and believed by no one anymore.

    Besides that, haplogroups are a terrible marker of general genetic descent.

    Also worth stating the obvious that the Irish have mixed more with English and other Celtic populations over time (as well as some Norse ancestry in likelihood) and that likewise due to the Norse slave trade and natural dispersion of the Celts Germanic populations have taken on more Celtic traits (hence the presence of dark and red hair in Scandinavia).
    Celtic influence might have somewhat influenced the ratios of dark and red hair in Scandinavia but it was clearly present before. Actually northern European populations generally seem to have gotten lighter(by selection), rather than darker, before modern times.

    If Icelanders, Germans and Austrians are Germanic/Nordic, so are Irish, Scottish, Welsh and (not all) French people. Celtic identity is cultural and linguistic far more than it is ethnic or genetic.
    The only Germanic ethnicity out of the latter group would be Lowland Scots. Least of all are the French Germanic, the only parts strongly influenced are those in Nord-Pas De-Calais, the Elsaß, Lothringen and, less so, Normandy.

    What is this “Nordic” nonsense all the time anyway? In what way do you use it? Racial, geographical? In neither sense it’s a necessary nor a sufficient prerequisite of being Germanic.

    You seem to struggle generally with the definition of genetics, culture, linguistics and ethnicity. The latter encompasses all of the preceding three concepts and is not identical to genetics. No offense but looking at the fact that you’re in no small part Irish, Welsh and Scottish, I do sense some (unfounded) inferiority complex.

    I actually like the British Celts and they’re certainly both genetically(both by ancient common descent and mixture) and culturally the closest relatives of modern Germanics but that simply doesn’t make them Germanic themselves just like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spjabork View Post
    There exists a certain racial type that is commonly, "non-scientifically" referred to as "Celtic" (red hair and very pale skin) and this type can be found in Ireland and in southern Germany. But even in southern Germany, this type is not predominant.
    I don’t even think red hair or very pale skin are particularly more common in southern Germany than in the rest of Germany. Are you sure you’re not confusing it with the proper Keltic Nordid type, which, indeed, is somewhat common here?
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    British are generally descended from Germans while Irish are descended from Scandivanians

    I consider Irish to be nordic although maybe not Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicposter View Post
    I consider Irish to be nordic although maybe not Germanic.
    Though there was some small amount of migration from Norway, I doubt it was enough to change the character of the Irish too much. The situation was different in places like Orkney or Shetland, though.

    What percentage Irish are you, and do you consider that your main ethnicity?
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn ok Muninn View Post
    Though there was some small amount of migration from Norway, I doubt it was enough to change the character of the Irish too much. The situation was different in places like Orkney or Shetland, though.

    What percentage Irish are you, and do you consider that your main ethnicity?

    I'm about 80% Irish, 15% German and 5% British. I generally self identify as Irish. My mom is 25% German and my dad is something like 1/16 or 1/32 German.

    Well my DNA test also showed me to be zero point something percent Iberian but I choose to ignore that part of my ancestry.

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    Celts and Germanics are very closely related, genetically and culturally. Very interesting video on origins of the English ethnicity.



    What does it mean to be English?

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