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Thread: Why Are the Irish Not Considered Germanic/Nordic?

  1. #501
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    An important reason why the Irish are in general not considered Germanics is simply that they do not consider themselves Germanics. This is to my knowledge a rather unique situation, for nearly all of them speak English as a mother tongue and only a small minority is able to speak Gaelic semi-fluently or fluently as a second language.

    The number of Gaelic speakers has been declining for some centuries. Thus for example in the entire island in 1851 there were 319,602 speakers of Gaelic only, plus 1,204,684 bilingual in Gaelic and English. By 1901 these figures had dropped to 20,953 monoglots and 620,189 bilinguals. This trend has continued until recent times.

    Racially, the Irish stock is for the most part compatible with the Northwestern Germanic stock. And culturally, the Irish have been equally assimilated to a large extent. While important regional differences in traditions, folklore and customs do exist which nobody denies (but which also vary greatly within Ireland), these differences probably do no longer rise to a level which would justify to consider the Irishmen members of an entirely different meta-ethnicity.

    Summarized, the modern Irish speak a Germanic language, they belong to a racial stock whose types can be found in abundance amongst Germanics, and they have culturally adapted and (been) assimilated to a sufficient degree. This assimilation and cultural exchange was no one-way street but was strengthened and amplified by the fact that their Germanic neighbors, primarily the Anglos, also absorbed and adopted ("Germanicized") certain aspects of Irish traditions and culture what lead to a process which could be described as cultural leveling and which in turn accelerated the assimilation process, as much as inter-marriage did (in particular in the New World).

    The most important or defining moments which all members of a meta-ethnicity have in common are language, racial ancestry, a common history, and culture (traditions, customs, habits, and the like) whose exchange is in turn greatly accelerated by said common language. Objectively, the Irish do probably not differ much more in this respect from certain Germanic ethnicities than other Germanic ethnicities do differ from each other.

    Nonetheless, subjectively, most Irish believe that they are quite distinct from other Germanics and subscribe to a "Celtic" identity. They do not see themselves in unity with other Germanics. While this is finally probably based on rather irrational motives and ideas which in general do not define an ethnicity or meta-ethnicity (such as historical animosities and resentment against the English, religious differences, politics, and the disproportional stressing of non-Germanic influences), it creates still a consciousness in reality which makes them "non-Germanics by choice."

    As mentioned, no other examples in history come to my mind. When the Alsacians, originally of German heritage and a part of the German nation, were for example Latinized or Romancized within two or three generations, simply by overwhelmingly adopting the French language due to political pressure and necessity, without that their ancestry, racial composition, culture, and the like would have significantly changed, they, in the view of most people, ceased to be Germans and Germanics -- apart from those few people maybe who actively sought to preserve their German language and heritage and continued to identify with the German nation.

    The Irish, on the other hand, did, in the view of most people (and in particular in the view of the Irish themselves), not turn into Germanics, once English had prevailed as the people's language in Ireland.

    The primary difference between the Latinized Alsacians (who didn't remain Germanics) and the Anglicized Irishmen (who remained Celts) appears to be really self-identification. Whether it makes rationally or scientifically sense is an entirely different question. Personally, I could never rationalize or understand the keltentümelei. Objectively, the Celts as a meta-ethnic group are probably almost extinct, but the Celtic legacy is kept alive through nostalgia by hundred times as many people than there are real Celts. The case is similar to certain modern Iberians who claim to be equally Celts, while others claim they are Germanics (Visigoths). Objectively, they are probably as Celtic or Germanic as Sicilians or Hungarians.

    But perceptions, right or wrong, are a strong factor and it's difficult to dismiss them as mere intelligibilities, as long as they define the identity and guide the actions of people in real life.
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    Dialects don't lie.

    I am originally from England and I agree with you. If you visit Ireland it has just as many Viking origins as anywhere in England. Even English spoken in an Irish dialect has a similar ring to modern Norwegian/Swedish/Danish. Dielects are a very reliable indication of roots even over many centuries. Did you ever wonder why Welsh people with a very strong dialect sound similar to people from India? The roots of both languages are Sanskrit. The connection must go back a few thousand years, but the sound is still there! People from the border counties in England and the Geordies also have a similar musical lilt to Scandanavians. There is a really good reason for it just there, those areas were heavily settled by people from Scandinavia. Many of the towns still carry Viking names. The place my family originates from, Birkbeck, has its name origins in Björkö/Birka, Sweden: Birkabeck, (Björköbeck). Ireland with its dialects is no different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorkobeck View Post
    I am originally from England and I agree with you. If you visit Ireland it has just as many Viking origins as anywhere in England. Even English spoken in an Irish dialect has a similar ring to modern Norwegian/Swedish/Danish. Dielects are a very reliable indication of roots even over many centuries. Did you ever wonder why Welsh people with a very strong dialect sound similar to people from India? The roots of both languages are Sanskrit. The connection must go back a few thousand years, but the sound is still there! People from the border counties in England and the Geordies also have a similar musical lilt to Scandanavians. There is a really good reason for it just there, those areas were heavily settled by people from Scandinavia. Many of the towns still carry Viking names. The place my family originates from, Birkbeck, has its name origins in Björkö/Birka, Sweden: Birkabeck, (Björköbeck). Ireland with its dialects is no different.
    Welsh people are Celts aren't they? Their language is a Celtic language is it not? Are you trying to say Welsh people are related to East Indians?

    Now I gotta go do some research on this one....

    You know....my mother is the only one who ever said this....for I've never heard it anywhere else.....but she used to swear that Scandinavians were often ostracized to Wales. But this has not been substantiated by anything else....so I shall leave her to her delusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fnpdocgrrl View Post
    Welsh people are Celts aren't they? Their language is a Celtic language is it not? Are you trying to say Welsh people are related to East Indians?
    He just pointed out that European languages, like Welsh, are related to Sanskrit, because both Celtic, Germanic and other European language groups belong to the same Indo-European language family as Sanskrit, Hindi, Sinhalese, etc.



    This chart is not complete, but it gives you an idea of the relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fnpdocgrrl View Post
    Welsh people are Celts aren't they? Their language is a Celtic language is it not? Are you trying to say Welsh people are related to East Indians?
    Yes. Yes. And Yes.

    Now I gotta go do some research on this one....
    Here's a good place to start
    Indo-Euro Origin


    I'm incredibly confused as to this superiority complex Skadites seem to have over Celtic nations. Ireland Germanic? Seriously? I'm sure it stems from not being able to see past your own Germanic nose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Yes. Yes. And Yes.


    Here's a good place to start
    Indo-Euro Origin


    I'm incredibly confused as to this superiority complex Skadites seem to have over Celtic nations. Ireland Germanic? Seriously? I'm sure it stems from not being able to see past your own Germanic nose
    *raises hand*
    Fellow CeltoGermanic here

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    The Irish are (Keltic) Nordics by excellence. They are also well among the world's bluest and lightest-eyed people. Only Scandinavian countries, Estonia, southern Scottish folks can compete with the Irish when it comes to light eyes.

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    Gaelic is not a Germanic language and the Gaels identify as Celtic. Furthermore the Norse assimilated to Gaelic life as they did in England and the Normans were Cambro-Normans from Wales with Welsh blood. Any other claim of a Germanic Ireland would have to insist the English and other superstrates there exceed the indigenous Gaelic in modern Ireland today. I do not think this is so though the whole island speaks English nowadays save the remote west of the country. Also most of the English/Protestant influence is from the Lallans (Scots) who are in denial of their own Germanic origins though Edinburgh is as English as Durham.

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    I wonder why Germanics are always so eager to count some strange alien folk as 'belonging to them'. Why would someone be Germanic? Most Irish today speak one Germanic language, namely English, as their sole mothertongue. So what? Tons of negroes in Africa speak English as 'their mothertongue', yet are they Germanic? No!

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    The Irish are indigenous to the British Isles and are hardly alien to the English.

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