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Thread: Genetical Similarity Between Greeks, Italians, Iranians, Pakistanis and Slavs

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shapur
    Polak my friend you have no ARGUMENTS! NIL, NOTHING, ZERO!
    This is the truth! I meant linguistical relation of NDD!
    So when we speak about schoolary things like genetic please inform your self.
    I will say it so. Slavs+Dravidians are RACIAL brothers. The different is that the Dravidians have an asiatic maternal marker and that they live in a hot area.
    From the skull shape both are similar!
    The uppercasts of India are of Indo-Iranian origin and the brothers of us Iranians. In Pakistan there are many Indo-Aryan tribes who are original Indo-Iranians. But what matter make this? We are all cultural brothers. Rahul will say the same. But I am tired of people like you who try to claim all what is in the world Slavic.

    Look in Pakistan live a tribe its name is Brahui. They are Dravidian speakers.
    I researched their genetic and find what very interesting.
    They are very related to Slavs!

    Brahuis:

    Maternal(Brahuis and Poles) in Super Haplogroups:
    HV: 31.6%/50.92%
    JT: 13.2%/19.26%
    K: 0%/3.44%
    U: 15.8%/16.7%
    XWI: 0%/7.33%
    MN: 29%/2.29%
    R: 7.9%/0.46%
    L: 2.6%/0.23%
    Paternal(Brahuis and Poles) in Haplogroups:
    HG1: 8.18%/18%
    HG2: 10%/17%
    HG3: 39.09%/54%
    HG8: 2.72%/0%
    HG9: 28.18%/4%
    HG10: 1.81%/0%
    HG12: 0.9%/1%
    HG16: 0%/4%
    HG21: 0%/2%
    HG26: 1.81%/0%
    HG28: 7.27%/0%

    My sources:
    Poles(Rosser et al. - European Y-Chromosome Diversity and Mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians)
    Brahuis(Where West Meets East - The Compley mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor and Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan).

    My Result: We see that all HGs and SHGs have a maternal/paternal link. HG3 to HV. This is not in the sence of dominance model. Also when he was a dominance model it hadn`t sucess.

    So Polak how you can explain that a Dravidian speaking population is so genetical similar with Slavs?



    Are you trying to tell me that Dravidians are north/central European in terms of mtDNA?

    That's not true.

    Show me a proper analysis of mtDNA haplotypes, not just a breakdown into the basic groups.

    There are plenty of posts here about Polish mtDNA, autosomes and HLAs. Everything points to north central Europe.

    Now show me such detailed reports showing Dravidians in the same group.

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak

    Now show me such detailed reports showing Dravidians in the same group.
    But not from Brahuis but isolated Dravidian groups!

    Like Telugu, South Indian Tamils (Sri Lanka ones could be partially mixed with Singhalese people), Malayalam, Kannada etc.

    Neither Brahuis nor Pakistani and Iranian "Aryans" are today unmixed, so it was quite likely that they have especially in the male line and upper-class higher levels of IE markers.

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    But not from Brahuis but isolated Dravidian groups!

    Like Telugu, South Indian Tamils (Sri Lanka ones could be partially mixed with Singhalese people), Malayalam, Kannada etc.

    Neither Brahuis nor Pakistani and Iranian "Aryans" are today unmixed, so it was quite likely that they have especially in the male line and upper-class higher levels of IE markers.

    Iranian mixed? In which sense? In races? No Iranians are Caucasians maternal and paternal. The Iranians of today Iran come from Anatolia/Caucasus.

    They kicked the orginal population out->Dravidians? It could also be that Iran was settled by Caucasians"language group" who mixed with the new Aryans. But the importants paternal HG for Iranians is HG 9 which come in most Iranians to rates of 70%!

    I said several times it is to complex to describe all with only one model.
    The Brahui are racial very very related to Slavs. Agrippa said self he can not imagine why they have so many "Caucasian" blood but speaking a Dravidian language.

    I said also that the Dravidian language is in the Norastic group. So it could be that it is the original language of the HG1/3 group. We know that for 6000 years there were no IE language in Russia or northwestern Europe. There was a language and later replaced by the agriculture modell.

    You said east Iranians show high frequence of HG3. This is also wrong.
    Turks, Pakistanis show a high frequence of HG3 and HG1"why it is there?".
    Were the Basques Aryans?

    Also why have Pakistanis and Indians a low frequence of HG9 and only in upper castes not like HG3 in ALL castes! Also who say that the Indo-Aryan who came to India were not mixed with Slavs? The Mitannis assimilated the Hittians a Caucasian folk in Syria. Why this not happen the same with Indo-Aryans in Central Asia?

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Which IE marker? Look I have a problem with you and people who have the same "opinion". It has NO genetical evidence.
    You will say there it was so and there it was so, because this make Slavs happy? Look we have two models. On the first you say the Iranians were conquered by original Aryans with their "Aryan" marker HG3 but they let not high frequences of HG3. And mostly in the north!
    On the other side you say the HG3 in Indo-Aryans is very high because the orginal Aryans with their HG3 were so dominant.
    So there were two things! On the other hand there is the fact that the Lut desert was a barrier of HG3 flow to Iran. I thought the Aryan come as conquere?
    So this little desert is not important. The realty is that HG3 expand about special areas. About the Lut desert not, it is find in high frequences in Slavs, Indo-Aryans, Central Asians"Turks" and Dravidians"south India".
    We know that it is of paleolithic time. Also we have fermal mtDNA.
    There is also a theory that India was Caucasian later flood by Dravidians.
    We know that there is a theory that IE spread from Anatolia.
    We know who were the Mitannis and how they assimilate the Hittians.
    We know of a people named Kushanis and many linugisticans think they are of Iranian language group.
    We know that in the Avesta is wrote that the Iranians come from Ariyana Vaeje which is in Aras(north Kurdistan). We know that the Iranians, Indo-Aryans and some tribes in Europe call their self Aryan.
    We have no cultural reminds of Aryan culture in Russia.
    So you will say that Slavs were something Indo-Aryan who came to India, to build a caste system which is to this day in work.
    But in their copper of Aryan origin all destroyed?
    Sorry this is non-sense!
    I think personal what I said often, HG3 is of paleolithic origin.
    And also I said it could be that they expand from Central Asia to India.
    But where is the evidence, that they were Indo-Europeans?

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shapur
    Iranian mixed? In which sense? In races? No Iranians are Caucasians maternal and paternal. The Iranians of today Iran come from Anatolia/Caucasus.
    They kicked the orginal population out->Dravidians?
    The original Caucasoid "Iranians" were Elamo-Dravidians mostly of Armenid-Protomediterranid and Orientalid (Iranid) types.

    In East Iran and India the original populaton were Australoid-Weddid-Protomongoloid.

    The Caucasoid farmers (Elamo-Dravidians) might have spread agriculture and already dominated the whole region when the first Aryans came.
    In this region not the IE brought agriculture, but Sumerians and Elamo-Dravidian and related groups.
    So the most Caucasoids had not to come, they were already there, but they were mostly of the types mentioned.


    It could also be that Iran was settled by Caucasians"language group" who mixed with the new Aryans. But the importants paternal HG for Iranians is HG 9 which come in most Iranians to rates of 70%!
    Found in Brahuis and other North Indian former Dravidian groups and the ME in general as well? Might be so...

    I said serval times it is to complex to describe all with only one model.
    The Brahui are racial very very related to Slavs.
    They are mixed like I said, they were heavily influenced by Aryans.

    Agrippa said self he can not imagine why they have so many "Caucasian" blood but speaking a Dravidian language.
    I never said Dravidians = Weddid, maybe today thats in general true, but its just a language group!
    The today Turkic speakers are in their majority not very representative for the original Turkic people as well...


    I said also that the Dravidian language is in the Norastic group.

    Such "Supergroups" are a scientific problem, but hence they might have been more Caucasoid in the early stages THAN NOW, who knows...


    So it could be that it is the original language of the HG1/3 group.
    We know that for 6000 years there were no IE language in Russia or northwestern Europe. There was a language and later replaced by the agriculture modell.

    The levels are higher in the Eastern European regions, this people spoke IE quite early and had a material culture which is related to IE of later times in the region. (Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians etc.)

    These people came from the North in waves no matter where they had their language from and no matter when the first waves came.
    The markers and genotypes are more complex, numerous and less mixed in the Eastern European core regions.


    You said east Iranians show high frequence of HG3. This is also wrong.
    Turks, Pakistanis show a high frequence of HG3 and HG1"why it is there?".
    Pakistan was in the centre of IE immigration, about Turks you might show further statistics, but there settled many IE groups as well.

    I just said in East Iran the levels should be higher then in Central and West Iran. Because it was a elite dominance there, they must not be high.
    Just read the old Persian texts, they said the came, the locals spoke Elamite and were in the majority but were assimilated by the small Persian clans and their followers.

    They were just more successful than the later Parthians which were a small elite of horse warriors as well, but never had a strong base in the already Aryanised people of the region.


    Were the Basques Aryans?

    No, if they have Aryan markers than just in the same sense as Brahuis, because of admixture though on a very low level.
    HG 3 is an "Aryan" marker, the Kentum-IE spread might be more complex and is probably really related to Neolithic farmers from SE-Europe/Anatolia.


    Also why have Pakistanis and Indians a low frequence of HG9 and only in upper castes not like HG3 in ALL castes!
    Aryans at this stage might have been already mixed or incorporated the local Dravidian elite in their own upperclass.
    Something you can see quite often, the own upperclass merges with the local ones to a new aristocracy.
    Persians f.e. used a complex system of relationships and direct kinship, with locals from the beginning, especially in the maternal lines.


    Also who say that the Indo-Aryan who came to India were not mixed with Slavs?
    The "Aryans" are Indoiranians, but they and Slavs belong both to the Satem group of IE's, like I said, probably Kentum and Satem were divided and Satem mixed with local people in Eastern Europe and formed the typical horse warrior groups of the Steppe.


    The Mitannis assimilated the Hittians a Caucasian folk in Syria. Why this not happen the same with Indo-Aryans in Central Asia?
    This happened, and the subjected peasantry was not of original "Aryan" but older local stock.
    But the route of the Steppe warriors was from North into the South.

    Maybe there came people from the Indian region back as well, who knows, but not in such masses which would explain so high levels in Slavs.
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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    The original Caucasoid "Iranians" were Elamo-Dravidians mostly of Armenid-Protomediterranid and Orientalid (Iranid) types.

    In East Iran and India the original populaton were Australoid-Weddid-Protomongoloid.

    The Caucasoid farmers (Elamo-Dravidians) might have spread agriculture and already dominated the whole region when the first Aryans came.
    In this region not the IE brought agriculture, but Sumerians and Elamo-Dravidian and related groups.
    So the most Caucasoids had not to come, they were already there, but they were mostly of the types mentioned.




    Found in Brahuis and other North Indian former Dravidian groups and the ME in general as well? Might be so...



    They are mixed like I said, they were heavily influenced by Aryans.



    I never said Dravidians = Weddid, maybe today thats in general true, but its just a language group!
    The today Turkic speakers are in their majority not very representative for the original Turkic people as well...





    Such "Supergroups" are a scientific problem, but hence they might have been more Caucasoid in the early stages THAN NOW, who knows...





    The levels are higher in the Eastern European regions, this people spoke IE quite early and had a material culture which is related to IE of later times in the region. (Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians etc.)

    These people came from the North in waves no matter where they had their language from and no matter when the first waves came.
    The markers and genotypes are more complex, numerous and less mixed in the Eastern European core regions.




    Pakistan was in the centre of IE immigration, about Turks you might show further statistics, but there settled many IE groups as well.

    I just said in East Iran the levels should be higher then in Central and West Iran. Because it was a elite dominance there, they must not be high.
    Just read the old Persian texts, they said the came, the locals spoke Elamite and were in the majority but were assimilated by the small Persian clans and their followers.

    They were just more successful than the later Parthians which were a small elite of horse warriors as well, but never had a strong base in the already Aryanised people of the region.





    No, if they have Aryan markers than just in the same sense as Brahuis, because of admixture though on a very low level.
    HG 3 is an "Aryan" marker, the Kentum-IE spread might be more complex and is probably really related to Neolithic farmers from SE-Europe/Anatolia.




    Aryans at this stage might have been already mixed or incorporated the local Dravidian elite in their own upperclass.
    Something you can see quite often, the own upperclass merges with the local ones to a new aristocracy.
    Persians f.e. used a complex system of relationships and direct kinship, with locals from the beginning, especially in the maternal lines.




    The "Aryans" are Indoiranians, but they and Slavs belong both to the Satem group of IE's, like I said, probably Kentum and Satem were divided and Satem mixed with local people in Eastern Europe and formed the typical horse warrior groups of the Steppe.




    This happened, and the subjected peasantry was not of original "Aryan" but older local stock.
    But the route of the Steppe warriors was from North into the South.

    Maybe there came people from the Indian region back as well, who knows, but not in such masses which would explain so high levels in Slavs.
    I bring some facts but you turn all surround the subject.
    Where it is written that Persians came as a small group?
    Where it is written that Parthians came in a small group?
    We know who are Sarmatians and one of their today tribes the Alans are genetical Iranians. How you can explain this?
    Second don`t speak so much about Aryan marker.
    We have HG3 which is linked to Kurgan culture some say yes some no.
    We have HG9 which is linked to neolithic agriculture expand.
    So about which we speak?
    Secondly you said:
    The original Caucasoid "Iranians" were Elamo-Dravidians mostly of Armenid-Protomediterranid and Orientalid (Iranid) types.

    The original people in Iran were not Iranians. They were of Caucasian language group. We have enough genetical evidences that the Iranians of today are original from Anatolia which is explaind in the Avesta.
    And don`t begin with phycial anthropology, we speak here about genetic!

    Look Agrippa I don`t know where you come from or so.
    But we can do it also this why. Why should not HG9 be proto-Aryans who conquerede later Slavs? We can find HG9 in many Slav tribes.

    We can only speak about PIEs or Aryans. When we speak about Aryans then about today Iranians who created with their culture/language.
    When we speak about PIEs then my theory is out of Anatolia.
    When we speak about Europeans then please about all Europeans.
    When we speak of today Indo-Aryans then today Indians with Indo-Aryan culture. The original Indo-Aryans were maybe HG3.
    But how I said there is too many objections.

    I must go now work. I will answer in 2-3 days!
    Bye!

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    The original Caucasoid "Iranians" were Elamo-Dravidians mostly of Armenid-Protomediterranid and Orientalid (Iranid) types.
    The original people in Iran were not Iranians. They were of Caucasian language group. We have enough genetical evidences that the Iranians of today are original from Anatolia which is explaind in the Avesta.
    And don`t begin with phycial anthropology, we speak here about genetic!
    Thats why I said "Iranians" with quotation marks, because I meant the pre-Aryan people living in the REGION of TODAY Iran.

    We can only speak about PIEs or Aryans. When we speak about Aryans then about today Iranians who created with their culture/language.
    PIE is one thing, early Aryans-Steppe people and later today Indoiranians something else.

    When we speak about PIEs then my theory is out of Anatolia.
    Is one possibility.


    When we speak of today Indo-Aryans then today Indians with Indo-Aryan culture. The original Indo-Aryans were maybe HG3.
    But how I said there is too many objections.

    There speak many things for that theory that (Indo-) Aryans were steppe people with a high level of HG 3 and there is not sufficient alternative theory no matter who were the first PIE because for Persia f.e. Indoeuropeans are just mentioned quite late and there were many original inhabitants of the region today called Iran.
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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Hmm. This discussion always goes round in circles. The truth is we'll probably never know which theory is right.

    I was under the impression that the Elamites did not penetrate the Iranian plateau? Their empire never reached the regions where the Medes and Persians were said to have settled. They may well have been Dravidian but the evidence is in no way conclusive. The linguistic hypothesis is not too strong. Is there any other evidence? And is there evidence of a Dravidian civilisation from India to the head of the Persian Gulf?

    I also do not get why the population density was high enough in Iran to swamp the Aryan invaders but not high enough in India where geography would seem to dictate a higher population density. Can we compare the Gangetic Plain to the deserts of the Iranian plateau?

    More problematic for the HG3/M17 theory is the fact that several Dravidian tribes such as the Chenchus have this haplotype in quite significant amounts. Of course, there will have to be a general study of Dravidian tribes before definite conclusions can be made. Even so, it is very strange that Aryan invaders would mate with Dravidian females and then adopt their language.

    Kivisild et al.,
    The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations, Am. J. Hum. Genet. 72:313–332, 2003:

    Quote:

    The most common Y-chromosomal lineage among Indians, R1a, also occurs away from India in populations of diverse linguistic and geographic affiliation. It is widespread in central Asian Turkic-speaking populations and in eastern European Finno-Ugric and Slavic speakers and has also been found less frequently in populations of the Caucasus and the Middle East and in Sino-Tibetan populations of northern China (Rosser et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Nebel et al. 2001;Weale et al. 2001). No clear consensus yet exists about the place and time of its origins. From one side, it has been regarded as a genetic marker linked with the recent spread of Kurgan culture that supposedly originated in southern Russia/Ukraine and extended subsequently to Europe, central Asia, and India during the period 3,000–1,000 B.C. (Passarino et al. 2001; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001; Wells et al. 2001). Alternatively, an Asian source (Zerjal et al. 1999) or a deeper Palaeolithic time depth of 15,000 years before present for the defining M17 mutation has been suggested (Semino et al. 2000; Wells et al. 2001). Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (150%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to 10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002). Our low STR diversity estimate of haplogroup R1a in central Asians is also consistent with the low diversities found by Zerjal et al. (2002) and suggests a recent founder effect or drift being the reason for the high frequency of M17 in southeastern central Asia. In Pakistan, except for the Hazara, who are supposedly recent immigrants in the region, the frequency of M17 was similarly high in the upper and lower courses of the Indus River valley (Qamar et al. 2002). The frequency of R1a drops from 30% in eastern provinces to 10% in the western parts of Iran (Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). Both Pakistanis and Iranians showed STR variances as high as those of Indians, when compared with the lower values in European and central Asian populations. Unexpectedly, both southern Indian tribal groups examined in this study carried M17. The presence of different STR haplotypes and the relatively high frequency of R1a in Dravidian-speaking Chenchus (26%) make M17 less likely to be the marker associated with male “Indo-Aryan” intruders in the area. Moreover, in two previous studies involving southern Indian tribal groups such as the Valmiki from Andhra Pradesh (Ramana et al. 2001) and the Kallar from Tamil and Nadu (Wells et al. 2001), the presence of M17 was also observed, suggesting that M17 is widespread in tribal southern Indians. Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Physical anthropology is also important, not just population genetics. It is just a marker. Many things happen inbetween.

    The Lurs are a good example of what Agrippa call Elam (or Ilam) or the indigenous people. The Lurs of Southwest Iran are a good example of Elamite.

    Das Reich von Elam

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    Post Re: Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Neutral Observer
    I was under the impression that the Elamites did not penetrate the Iranian plateau? Their empire never reached the regions where the Medes and Persians were said to have settled.
    Well they spread over Southern Iran, I looked at google and found a good side for a compact overview:
    http://www.bestirantravel.com/cultur...y/history.html

    First, Elamites ruled over regions that is currently Khuzestan Province in southwest Iran whose principal city, Shush/Susa, was on the plain of Mesopotamia. The Elamite language has not been fully deciphered, but it was unlike any of the later languages of the region. In the 2d millennium BC the Elamites were found throughout southern Iran.

    They may well have been Dravidian but the evidence is in no way conclusive. The linguistic hypothesis is not too strong. Is there any other evidence? And is there evidence of a Dravidian civilisation from India to the head of the Persian Gulf?
    Its just quite likely because Protomediterranids spread with agriculture long before the IE language was in the region.

    But you are right, afaik there are no convincing evidences, just presumptions.
    I dont took Elamits and Dravidians together because they were the only groups or I was sure that they are related, but rather because the represent the pre-Aryan, pre-IE elements of the region, Kassits would be just another example or Sumerians.


    I also do not get why the population density was high enough in Iran to swamp the Aryan invaders but not high enough in India where geography would seem to dictate a higher population density. Can we compare the Gangetic Plain to the deserts of the Iranian plateau?
    In fact I have the idea of a peasantry and herder-warrior class of IE. The centre of IE settlement was just not in Iran and the density was higher.

    You should not forget that it was a similar situation like for Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the local culture was collapsed and decimated.

    More problematic for the HG3/M17 theory is the fact that several Dravidian tribes such as the Chenchus have this haplotype in quite significant amounts. Of course, there will have to be a general study of Dravidian tribes before definite conclusions can be made. Even so, it is very strange that Aryan invaders would mate with Dravidian females and then adopt their language.
    As I said, the new elite was not made up by Aryans only. Furthermore there are many situations in which the local peasantry kept their language and of course parts of there religion as well, same happened in India in many parts.
    Maybe in the early vedic time in some region local upper classes could have defended their reign, maybe even with Aryan allies and mercenaries?
    Just look at the Greek-Persian or Roman-Germanic wars...

    Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (150%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to 10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002).
    Thats what I meant in earlier posts with the Aryan peasantry and semi-nomadic herdsmen which lived in Central Asia until the Turkic and Mongol people came.
    Its clear that their percentage is dropping in regions in which the Nordoid/Cromagnid and Nordindid/Pamirid continuum was destroyed by the Mongolid invaders.
    I saw an interesting documentation about Sarmatian women, they found an intact grave and analysed the DNA and then they searched in the mixed people in Central Asia for light skinned-blue eyed-blond hair and Caucasoid looking girls.
    By chance they found one in the step and interestingly she had the mDNA of the pure Caucasoid women of Cromagnid type of Sarmatian graves from Ukraine!


    Our low STR diversity estimate of haplogroup R1a in central Asians is also consistent with the low diversities found by Zerjal et al. (2002) and suggests a recent founder effect or drift being the reason for the high frequency of M17 in southeastern central Asia.

    Sure, those Aryan tribes were isolated from the rest during the Mongol expansion. Today almost the Tajiks only are still represantative for the "Aryan peasant type" of Central Asia.


    In Pakistan, except for the Hazara, who are supposedly recent immigrants in the region, the frequency of M17 was similarly high in the upper and lower courses of the Indus River valley (Qamar et al. 2002).
    Hazara are Mongolid with low (but present) admixture.


    The frequency of R1a drops from 30% in eastern provinces to 10% in the western parts of Iran (Quintana-Murci et al. 2001).
    Thats exactly what I said, the Aryans came to Iran from the East were certain clans of the Aryan elite came into power and made allies under the Elamites with which they mixed soon afterwards.
    Elamite was long time one of the official languages.

    The already mixed groups went further West, so there you dont find to much traces there.
    Sounds good if its true and would be another proof for what I said about Iran all the time.


    Both Pakistanis and Iranians showed STR variances as high as those of Indians, when compared with the lower values in European and central Asian populations. [b]Unexpectedly, both southern Indian tribal groups examined in this study carried M17. The presence of different STR haplotypes and the relatively high frequency of R1a in Dravidian-speaking Chenchus (26%) make M17 less likely to be the marker associated with male “Indo-Aryan” intruders in the area.
    26 percent is something quite clear, though not comparable with the much higher levels in other regions.
    And like I said, Aryans came in many regions, just look at the Todas f.e. which show clearly "Aryan features".

    The Chenchus, if the results are correct, might be really interesting, because they are not even Caucasoid enough for normal Indids, not a sign of Nordindid appearance if looking at some pictures...they are more or less Weddid in appearance:
    http://www.peoplesoftheworld.org/hos...nchu/index.jsp

    But ok, if 26 percent are true in the male line, autosomal might be even much lower.
    If such results could be repeated and shown in other tribal groups it would be a real "problem" for the otherwise quite consistent theory.
    The region is not in the extreme South, but quite in the "Dravidian" centre and more important, I dont know of their contacts to the caste system...


    Moreover, in two previous studies involving southern Indian tribal groups such as the Valmiki from Andhra Pradesh (Ramana et al. 2001) and the Kallar from Tamil and Nadu (Wells et al. 2001), the presence of M17 was also observed, suggesting that M17 is widespread in tribal southern Indians.

    That it was "observed" is nothing which surprise me, the percentage would be more important.

    If I think about it, it would be quite important how many people of the Chenchus were studied, because it seems they dont want to say the exact numbers of the others which might be significantly lower and they looked at related examples in teh Chenchus.

    But ok, never heard about that, another study on that subject in tribal groups would be very good.


    Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.
    Well, that wouldnt still not explain the typical northern habit and customs of the Aryans, their horses, warfar, their type in the graves and the high percentage of M17 in Slavs and Eastern Europe in general.

    But more studies on that subject with more people and comparisons of the different regions and tribal people should be made.
    Of course it would be interesting to know more about the various tribes how they were in contact with people in the caste system, which have usually higher levels of Aryan admixture with some exceptions.

    Its minimum more than 4000-3000 years Aryans came to the subcontinent, many things could have happened in between...

    If M17 would be "an old Europid" marker, you cannot prove anything for later times with it...though I think thats quite unlikely if looking at the general maps.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, June 29th, 2004 at 03:37 AM.
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