Genetical Similarity Between Greeks, Italians, Iranians, Pakistanis and Slavs

[Shapur]

Genetical Simmilarity between Greeks/Italians/Iranians and Pakistanis/Slavs!



What do you think about this table?

[Agrippa]

Just my interpretations, I invite others to discuss them...

HG 3 is the dominant "Aryan" marker, at least for the Indoiranian and whole Satem speaking groups.

Kentum might be spread by another type of people.

This proves more or less two things imo, if the results are correct:

1. The AIT - at least the Indoiranians came from the steppe.
2. That there was probably an early date of a Kentum-Satem split, which lead to a "Aryan" and a, probably more mixed Kentum group, which expanded to the east, though HG 3 is present in Kentum groups as well, the Scandinavian Germanics in special afaik.

HG28 seems to be rather an non-Caucasoid marker? Though I read that it was found in some Greeks as well...

[Agrippa]

The current distribution of the M17 haplotype is likely to represent traces of an ancient population migration originating in southern RussiayUkraine, where M17 is found at high frequency (.50%). It is possible that the domestication of the horse in this region around 3,000 B.C. may have driven the migration (27).

The distribution and age of M17 in Europe (17) and CentralySouthern Asia is consistent with the inferred movements of these people, who left a clear pattern of archaeological remains known as the Kurgan culture, and are thought to have spoken an early Indo-European language (27, 28, 29). The
decrease in frequency eastward across Siberia to the Altai-Sayan mountains (represented by the Tuvinian population) and Mongolia, and southward into India, overlaps exactly with the inferred migrations of the Indo-Iranians during the period 3,000 to 1,000 B.C. (27).

It is worth noting that the Indo-Europeanspeaking Sourashtrans, a population from Tamil Nadu in southern India, have a much higher frequency of M17 than their Dravidian-speaking neighbors, the Yadhavas and Kallars (39% vs. 13% and 4%, respectively), adding to the evidence that M17
is a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker. The exceptionally high frequencies of this marker in the Kyrgyz, TajikyKhojant, and Ishkashim populations are likely to be due to drift, as these populations are less diverse, and are characterized by relatively small numbers of individuals living in isolated mountain valleys.

Intriguingly, the population of present-day Iran, speaking a major Indo-European language (Farsi), appears to have had little genetic influence from the M17-carrying Indo-Iranians. It is possible that the pre-Indo-European population of Iran— effectively an eastern extension of the great civilizations of Mesopotamia—may have reached sufficient population densities to have swamped any genetic contribution from a small
number of immigrating Indo-Iranians. If so, this may have been a case of language replacement through the ‘‘elite-dominance’’ model (29).

Alternatively, an Indo-Iranian language may have been the lingua franca of the steppe nomads and the surrounding settled populations, facilitating communication between the two. Over time, this language could have become the predominant language in Persia, reinforced and standardized by rulers such as Cyrus the Great and Darius in the mid-first millennium B.C. Whichever model is correct, the Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern populations than they are to Central Asians or Indians.

This finding contrasts with a recent analysis of Eastern Iranian populations, which have high frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroup 3, defined by the M17 analogue SRY-1532A (30). It is likely that the Dasht-e Kavir and Dasht-e Lut deserts in the center of the country have acted as significant barriers to gene flow.

From here: http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=13786

[Agrippa]

The presence of Hg3 in some groups of Central Asia
has been reported [33, 36], but its frequency is rather
low with the exception of a peak in the Altai region
where it reaches about 50%. High frequencies of Hg3 in
the Eastern Caspian area, Eastern Iran and Pakistan
(about 30%) have suggested that this was the route of the
migration/s to India

From here:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=13784

Like I said, in regions of SW-S-Asia in which the Nordindid/Pamirid types are not very present, the frequency of possible IE markers related to Eastern Europe are very low.

Thats in full congruence with my theory and what physical anthropology is suggesting.

[Shapur]

HG28 is the local spread of HG9 how I know in neolithic times!
And it is Caucasian!

Rosser et al. Page 15"[/b]]
The distribution of HG 3 chromosomes resembles the third principal component of varioation of classical gene frequencies. There are several possible interpretations of this pattern. One explanation (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) is that it marks the Kurgan expansion from north of the Caspian Sea, dated to ~7,000 YBP. However, alternative explanations - such as the spread of pastoralism, or east-to-west movements of people such as the Scythians, Mongols, and Huns - seem equally likely (Renfrew 2000). Globally, HG3 chromosomes are absent from Africa and Americas, but their distribution is wide within Asia as well as in Europea (Zerjal et. al 1999), consistent with their association with a recent and major expansion within Eurasia. Microsatellite diversity analysis (Zerjal et al. 1999) used the mutationrate estimates of Heyer et al. (1997) to date the most recent common ancestor of a set of European and Asian HG3 chromosomes to 3,800 YBP (95% confidence interval [CI] 1,600-13,000 YBP); the use of more-recent mutation-rate estimates (Kayser et al. 2000) would yield a date of 2,550 YBP (95% CI 1,650-4,260 YBP). Coalecent analysis has dated the SRY-1532 mutation defining HG 3 to ~7,500 YBP (Karafet et al. 1999). If these datas are to be relied on, they seem to suggest that the expansion of HG 3 chromosomes was due to population movements later then those of the Kurgan people.
Curenntly, dates cannot be attached to the clines, and the modern distributions of lineages are the outcome of many millennia of population movement, Assigning plausible daet to demofraphic movements is important, and here the Y chromosome can potentially contribute. Finer-scale definitions of monophyletic linages within Europe, by use of new markers, and the analysis of these, by use of microsatellites, offers the possibilty that thimescales for the major demoraphic events can be inferred.

Why should HG3 be the Aryan marker? Could it be that HG3 has it origin in India?

[Polak]

Pakistanis and many Indians have European Y-chromosome markers (HG3) and Asian mtDNA markers (M).

However, the HG3 types in Poland are different from the ones in Pakistan.

The split between these types must have happened a few thousand years ago, probably during the east and west expansion of the steppe people from Ukraine.


Btw, HG3 is part of the R haplogroup, same as HG2, which is the most common marker in western Europe.

I don't see how it can be associated with Huns or Mongols.

That's the only article ever that has suggested this possibility, and it's quite a strange suggestion. It makes no sense actually.

I would love to see other reports backing this claim, because every other scientific paper I have ever seen points to the origin of HG3 in Ukraine or thereabouts.

Please note that the text posted by Shapur is from the year 2000, so the data is at least four years old.

[Agrippa]

If these datas are to be relied on, they seem to suggest that the expansion of HG 3 chromosomes was due to population movements later then those of the Kurgan people.

Thats nonsence, because younger events must be in archaeological record and after the Aryanisation there was just one really big European impact, and that was the Greeks, which on the other hand have very low levels of this marker and never reached sufficient numbers in the region.

"If these datas are to be relied on", says all, its a rough speculation.

On the other hand, there were spreads of the "Aryan core" after the first expansion.

You should not forget that it was not just one big wave which was going from Central Asia to Southern India, but a subsequent immigrations of clans and tribes which established new regional structures and expanded this structures secondary.

HG 3 is maybe not the PIE marker, but the marker for the Steppe people-Aryans.

[Shapur]

@Polak you mean HG 1 not HG2!

@Agrippa what do you think about the high frequence of HG 3 in south Dravidians? Would this fit a dominance model?

[Agrippa]

@Agrippa what do you think about the high frequence of HG 3 in south Dravidians? Would this fit a dominance model?

In East Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and India it was not just elite dominance.

Elite dominance was just the rule for most parts of Iran, except the extreme East.

But what is "high"? Sorry, I dont know the data from Southern Dravidians, afaik the level of HG seems to rather low, but maybe you have some new information?

Europid Proper, as Njord used before, is more specific in that way.

In f.e. German and Italian classic anthropology it just means Caucasoid.

So far as I understood it, "Europid" in the Anglo sense just means European Europids (Nordid, Dinarid, Alpinid, etc...)

[Polak]

@Polak you mean HG 1 not HG2!

@Agrippa what do you think about the high frequence of HG 3 in south Dravidians? Would this fit a dominance model?

Yeah, HG1, or R1b.


But Dravidians don't have hight levels of HG3 as a rule. Overall they're lower than in the Aryan Indians.

There was one report that claimed HG3 originated in India, but it was pretty dodgy.

Eastern Europeans have the highest levels and most diverse types of HG3. That fact places eastern Europe as the place where this marker developed.

No other nation on earth has more HG3 than Poland. Some small regional groups do, but not any other group as big as the Polish nation - 40 million.