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Thread: Universal Health Care?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ælfrun View Post
    In Canada everyone gets granted health care whether they can afford it or not...
    And so does everyone in America. The majority pay for private insurance and receive care superior to that which is provided by a single-payer system. A lower tax rate, consequent to the government not raping taxpayers to pay for some socialized monstrosity, allows said group to purchase that insurance, which is actually cheaper than a universal system. There are safety nets for the elderly and the poor, such as Medicare and Medicaid.

    I am simply astonished that anyone is arguing for a universal health care system on this forum.

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    Senior Member Ardito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    Hehe stretching is a nice word, the commerce clause is probably the most abused thing in all or our laws.
    That it is abused indicates that the supreme court is complicit, does it not, even though said court has a significant conservative presence? Does that not mean that the conservative "establishment" cannot be trusted?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardito View Post
    That it is abused indicates that the supreme court is complicit, does it not, even though said court has a significant conservative presence? Does that not mean that the conservative "establishment" cannot be trusted?

    The supreme court only hears cases that are brought before it. Unfortunately many cases end in the lower federal courts. Many of the lower court judges are not so conservative.

    No government "establishment" can be trusted, that is why we have the Second Amendment .

    Anyway I'm off for the night, somebody around here is feeling neglected and wants me to watch a movie with her.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    And so does everyone in America. The majority pay for private insurance and receive care superior to that which is provided by a single-payer system. A lower tax rate, consequent to the government not raping taxpayers to pay for some socialized monstrosity, allows said group to purchase that insurance, which is actually cheaper than a universal system. There are safety nets for the elderly and the poor, such as Medicare and Medicaid.

    I am simply astonished that anyone is arguing for a universal health care system on this forum.
    That is really interesting.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Hevneren's Avatar
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    I'm quite happy with universal healthcare (UHC) in Norway, even though it's not perfect (then again, what system is?). I laugh at the hysterical American anti-UHC propaganda that I read and hear about, because US media pundits on the far right are painting countries with UHC as Stalinist dictatorships where people stand in line just to get a loaf of bread. The sort of hysterical, jingoistic and laughable rhetoric that we see in the USA, reflects on a lack of general knowledge and understanding, as well as a false belief in the magic powers of corporatism... oops, I meant capitalism!

    Just because you shuffle money at insurance companies and doctors, doesn't necassarily mean you get a good healthcare system. The US system is more expensive per capita than any Western UHC alternative, and yet with the greater expense you get fewer people (as a %) benefiting from it than you do with a cheaper UHC system!

    Someone wrote that most wealthy people move out in countries with UHC and the like, because of high taxation. Honestly, that's not true. Yes, some do, but taxation on corporations isn't astronomically high, and neither is the taxation on people's fortunes. In fact, in many cases middle income and middle-high income people pay more taxes, in proportion to high income people. As a result, most high income people in Norway choose to stay in the country.

    Another thing I'd like to bring up, is that you're free to get private health coverage in Norway as well, and use private healthcare facilities. So, unlike the USA, you have a choice between getting treatment through UHC or using a private healthcare alternative (if you can afford it, which many can).

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    ^ The problem is the obama care system they are trying to impose is not like what you have in Norway.

    First and foremost obama care is not about health care it is about health insurance they are two separate things. Basically under obama care the government is forcing people to buy health insurance. Health care is already available to everybody in this country. There are already laws stating hospitals and doctors cannot turn people away.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardito View Post
    I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but why should the constitution say what it does? You say "constitution says" as though that's equivalent to "God descended from the heavens and said it personally".
    Unlike some people I do not believe the Constitution was inspired by God & should be treated like a holy documant. But the Constitution is an agreement (contract) between the states & the Federal Government, defining the responsibilities & powers of the Federal Government. Why shouldn't the Federal Govenment be expected to honor the Constitution? Why should the Federal Government be allowed to make demands on the people for which it has no authoirty to do so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardito View Post
    I understand, but the constitution provides for being amended, and this has been done a number of times. Why should it not be amended again, to guarantee healthcare as a right?
    You are right, the Constitution can be amended to make healthcare a constitutional right. But it take either 1: 2/3 of both houses of Congress to approve an amendment, which would then be sent to the states for ratification. It takes 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment before it becomes law. 2: 2/3 of the states can pass a resolution for a constitutional convention,where the constitution can be amended or entirely rewritten. This has never happened.

    What the left has done for over 50 years is instead of lobbying for constituional amendments they petition the courts to reinterprete what the Constitution means. Hense all the fighitng over Supreme Court nomiees.

    Again, I don't wish for this to happen, but simply referencing what the constitution says comes across to me as weak argumentation. I'd like something more substantive against the idea of universal healthcare from the American conservative position.
    You do not support the idea of constitutional government. The option you seem to be favoring is a total democracy, where what the majority says (50% + 1) is the law. Such a government could pass any law, no matter how repressive or dumb. It is an invitation to mob rule.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    Sorry grandma looks like your going to work at mcdonalds way up into your eighties until you drop dead in the work place of a massive heart attack.

    [That ought to go very well with the general public.]
    Not a bad idea, people are living longer, we should raise the retirement age. Some people like working beyond 65, otherwise they would just vegetate.



    Your just supporting the notion that there is a price for human life.
    There is. Whenever someone sues for unlawful death, the court decides how much that life was worth. When someone buys life insurance they are putting a value on their life. In healthcare we must decide when it is too much to keep someone alive. Is it really worth the cost to spend $500,000 to keep someone alive who will continue living in ill heath & on disability?

    The ideas behind insurance is that people pool their risks. Most people who buy fire insurance will never need to file a claim, but in case their house burns down they can be reimbursed for the value of the house. It is the same with health insurance, you pool your risks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ælfrun View Post
    I have always found American health care interesting. I am quite content with universal health care. In Canada everyone gets granted health care whether they can afford it or not, and we do not have to pay for ridiculous hospital bills for the most part.
    1: The Federal Government is not very good at running anything cost effective. The elderly use up the majority of healthcare in America, we already have universal healthcare for those 65+ (Medicare, based on the Canadian system), subsidized by the private sector, accounting for the expensive cost of private health insurance.

    Universal healthcare is also a form of wealth distribution. In the US that mean taking from Bill & Cheryl & giving to Leroy & Kai'sha or to Jose & Lupe.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Ardito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    You are right, the Constitution can be amended to make healthcare a constitutional right. But it take either 1: 2/3 of both houses of Congress to approve an amendment, which would then be sent to the states for ratification. It takes 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment before it becomes law. 2: 2/3 of the states can pass a resolution for a constitutional convention,where the constitution can be amended or entirely rewritten. This has never happened.
    I'm aware of the process of amendment, but I wasn't talking about that. Why shouldn't it be done? If the amendment were being debated, and you were chosen to defend the conservative position, what argument would you make?

    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    What the left has done for over 50 years is instead of lobbying for constituional amendments they petition the courts to reinterprete what the Constitution means. Hense all the fighitng over Supreme Court nomiees.
    It is a rather unpleasant and dishonest strategy on their part, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    You do not support the idea of constitutional government. The option you seem to be favoring is a total democracy, where what the majority says (50% + 1) is the law. Such a government could pass any law, no matter how repressive or dumb. It is an invitation to mob rule.
    I'm a monarchist. Philosophically and theologically speaking, I have nothing but bile for democracy, but democracy currently exists, so it has to be worked around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Not a bad idea, people are living longer, we should raise the retirement age. Some people like working beyond 65, otherwise they would just vegetate.
    The age people live to these days is silly. We need to die sooner or work longer. The former seems like a more realistic solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Universal healthcare is also a form of wealth distribution. In the US that mean taking from Bill & Cheryl & giving to Leroy & Kai'sha or to Jose & Lupe.
    This, along with a general distrust of everything the American federal government says or does, is why I am opposed to universal healthcare in America. That said, I trust private businesses almost as little.
    In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
    -John 1:1

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    Senior Member Magni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Could you please point out to me the section of the United States Constitution that states, "Everyone is entitled to health care".

    Btw, Massachusetts adopted universal healthcare a few years ago, how is that working out?
    It works out great for me. I get free* health care and it is the best health insurance I have ever had. The only thing that sucks is that they dropped the dental except for extractions. Everyone that lives here gets this unless they have a better plan. Even if your job offers insurance but it sucks you still get the state insurance instead.

    It is pretty much the first time in my life that I go for regular check ups and it came in real handy when my wife and I had our child. It is nice that our child gets regular visits and all her vaccines as well. It is certainly a comfort knowing that my child will not be going without health care .


    *We pay taxes that contribute so I guess it is not really free.

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    Senior Member Magni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post



    It does however say that you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Actually "All men are created equal" and "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are both from the Declaration of Independence and not in the constitution at all.


    People are constantly mixing those two documents up though.

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