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Thread: Universal Health Care?

  1. #21
    Senior Member RoyBatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Cuba was one of the wealthier countries in the Western Hemisphere in 1958, the typical Cuban was better off then the average Mexican or Brazilian. Yes there was a desparity of wealth. But in creating a workers paradise Cuba did not obtain an equal distribution of wealth but of poverty.
    Yes sir it was a wealthier country but it didn't become poorer solely because of economic mismanagement by the leaders of the People's Revolution. Economic sabotage and sanctions against it by the US played a major role as well. Keep in mind that the US doesn't only boycott trade with countries such as Cuba. It goes to great lengths behind the scenes to threaten, blackmail and prevent other countries from trading with and investing in Cuba as well (with mixed but still influential results of course).

    I'd have to read up a bit to understand their economic situation better but those would be some of the reasons.

    Personal greed is what creates wealth
    Not necessarily. Few Kuwaitis do a shred of work yet the country is wealthy and the citizens have a lot of things paid for them. Socialist countries like Sweden are not poor by any means despite extremely high levels of taxation for the rich.

    Wealth creation depends on a number of factors other than personal greed only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    Yes sir it was a wealthier country but it didn't become poorer solely because of economic mismanagement by the leaders of the People's Revolution. Economic sabotage and sanctions against it by the US played a major role as well. Keep in mind that the US doesn't only boycott trade with countries such as Cuba. It goes to great lengths behind the scenes to threaten, blackmail and prevent other countries from trading with and investing in Cuba as well (with mixed but still influential results of course).

    I'd have to read up a bit to understand their economic situation better but those would be some of the reasons.
    Other countries do trade with Cuba - Canada for example - , but except sugar & tobacco they have little to barter with. The main problen is they don't produce anything anymore.



    Not necessarily. Few Kuwaitis do a shred of work yet the country is wealthy and the citizens have a lot of things paid for them.
    O-I-L!

    Without it those Persian Gulf sheikdoms would be poorer then Cuba.

    Socialist countries like Sweden are not poor by any means despite extremely high levels of taxation for the rich.
    Sweden is not as extreme marxist as Cuba is or the Soviet Union was. But some of the wealthier Swedes have moved themselves, or their assets, offshore. But Sweden, & all the other liberal democracy welfare states, are going broke paying for benefits that are considered birthrights after decades of generous welfare spending. The recent riots in Britain & France have been over the retrenchment of public spending on "free stuff". The "tax the rich" does not work longterm because rhe rich only have so much money that can be taken & spent. Social Democracies have survived as long as the have by taxing the wages of the workers (income tax & pension/heath insurance taxes on wages) to support non-workers. Private sector workers are taxed to support public sector workers. Eventually you ran out of people to tax to support the state & all those enrolled in the entitlement classes.

    A note on social taxes on wages (referred to as FICA in the US): Even though part is contributed by the employer (50% in the US), in reality the entire burden fails on the worker. The employer contribution (along with any other benefits paid or partly paid for by the employer) is factored in when determining employee compensation. The private sector workers are the people paying for the welfare state.

    For the wealthy progressive taxation means they concentrate on wealth preservation, instead of wealth creation. That is why there are still very wealthy people in social democracies, though much of what they save in taxes is spent on CPAs & tax attorneys. The tax codes of all nations with progressive income taxes contain special tax rates for special sectors of the economy, so some industries can thrive in a progressive tax structure but these actual amount to subsidies. Like the housing/real estate market in America, look how that turned out.
    Last edited by Æmeric; Sunday, December 26th, 2010 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Senior Member Ardito's Avatar
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    I am opposed to universal healthcare in the context of the modern world, because what it means is increased control of our lives by our secular, corrupt governments and the supporting of degenerate individuals.

    However, in a more sane context, it seems reasonable to provide healthcare to every subject of the realm who remains in good standing with the law.
    In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
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    I'm opposed to universal healthcare due to the fact that in reality it's not there to benefit us. It's there to benefit the gov't and its special interests. A means of controlling and regulating medical operations, research and development, and how we are to live our lives. What is under the radar to most people is that when you put the gov't into the healthcare industry you're also putting them in the facets of nutrition, exercise, and lifestyle.

    They'll pass bills on what you need to eat, how to eat it, and possibly even ban certain foods. Just a hypothetical thought, in my opinion.

    Regardless, the U.S. Constitutions gives no guarantees to the right to health and/or healthcare. In states the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness; which means that you are the sole person to achieve those at your own merits. Healthcare should be an independent institution where the doctors have say in what you pay for their services.
    "Life; it kills 100% of those who experience it."

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    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

    National socialized collectivism must prevail over radical individualism.

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    I'm in favor of the single payer system, and I live in the U.S. where that will never be adopted. Everyone is entitled to health care and shouldn't have to go into bankruptcy paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flemish View Post
    I'm in favor of the single payer system, and I live in the U.S. where that will never be adopted. Everyone is entitled to health care and shouldn't have to go into bankruptcy paying for it.
    Could you please point out to me the section of the United States Constitution that states, "Everyone is entitled to health care".

    Btw, Massachusetts adopted universal healthcare a few years ago, how is that working out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Could you please point out to me the section of the United States Constitution that states, "Everyone is entitled to health care".

    Btw, Massachusetts adopted universal healthcare a few years ago, how is that working out?
    Why should common decency be constitutionalized?

    Must everything be constitutionalized to be given credit or paid attention to?

    Why should people go into debt or bankruptcy just to pay their healthcare? [ Especially amongst the poor.]

    Is efficient health only somthng that should be afforded to the more wealthier only?
    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    Why should common decency be constitutionalized?
    What is decent about making some people purchase healthcare for others?

    Must everything be constitutionalized to be given credit or paid attention to?
    Yes. The Constitutional defines, and limits, the power of the United States government.

    Why should people go into debt or bankruptcy just to pay their healthcare? [ Especially amongst the poor.]
    Why should everyone go bankrupt providing free healthcare to everyone? You've heard of Medicare? The universal heathcare system for the elderly in the US. That program is going to bankrupt us, proving universal healthcare to everryone will just hasten the day we go broke.

    Is efficient health only somthing that should be afforded to the more wealthier only?
    Lets get something straight: Free healthcare is not free, someone pays for it. The reasons for why healthcare is expensive have already been mentioned (tort law, the government ran Medicare system, administrative costs to comply with regulations), address the causes of runaway healthcare costs & the price of health insurance will come down. Btw, even the uninsured in America get medicare treatment, hospitals do not turn away the critical ill or injured.

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    Senior Member Ardito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Yes. The Constitutional defines, and limits, the power of the United States government.
    I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but why should the constitution say what it does? You say "constitution says" as though that's equivalent to "God descended from the heavens and said it personally".
    In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
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