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Thread: Are Parts of Eastern France Germanic?

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    Well, French people don't strike me as very Germanic, they all seem exotic to one degree or another. I'm sure that the people who live close to the German border are mixed with the Germans, but the French, as I understand it, are Latin.

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    Ahhhh...wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace

    my people came from there from little villages with names that ended in "heim" and settled here in a place they called "Mossheim" in East Tennessee.

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    ELSASS and Eastern Lothringen is Germanic..

    By Culture

    By Creed

    By Language

    That was til the French Government put Guns to their heads in 1945 and made the German Dialekt Absolutely Forbidden.

    French as a language was FORCED inside the Schools after 1945 ..

    Its taken its Toll but German Nationalists still remain inside Elsass.. Even some ethnic real French are Pro-Germanic for this region but its a hard long road.. Brainwashing is part of media Propaganda..

    Armes Elsass : (
    Wahrheit Macht Freiheit.
    http://www.rheinwiesenlager.de
    HISTORY IS NOT HISTORY - UNLESS IT IS THE 100% TRUTH

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    On another thread, I believe the Normans are declared to be Germanic.

    Certainly the original Franks were Germanic (or the Germanics were Frankish,

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    In my opinion the Normans were predominantly Germanic, although they had most certainly mixed with non-Germanics. Richard I of England, who himself was of Norman heritage was described as having light hair and being tall (Nordic?).

    I don't think there's much Nordic blood left in France these days. During WW2 the Germans believed that pretty much all of France south of Le Mans had no Germanic blood at all, and therefore 'Germanification' attempts were only made in the very north of the counrtry, near the Belgian and German borders.

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    From my point of view, the Ripuarian Franks evolved out of the earliest people in France - which is what I have a hard time calling people who've lived in France for 20-30,000 years "Germanic," although clearly they are blood and linguistic relatives of the Teutons (a term I happen to prefer for this type of discussion), so they were there before the Frisians, Belgians and Celts invaded in the 3rd-5th centuries B.C. as well. It was then of course Romanicized, like the rest of France, hence the increasing degrees of Latin words in the language. But tribal peoples of Europe married with the closest tribes and formed vast networks across the entire region in prehistoric times - the people of Normandy are a core Atlantic-facing people and always were, regardless of the language they spoke. They are (I believe) by 4000BP part of the area that has some blue eyes and lighter hair.

    Next came the Saxons, moving southward and taking over strategic positions in Normandy. At this point, the now mixed (but genetically mostly Celto-Germanic) population got a thorough infusion of Saxon genes and culture. The area became even more blue-eyed (although certainly brown-eyed people lived there, I believe, and still do).

    The Merovingians were Frankish, Clovis (Clodovig/Clodovech) spoke a Nordic/Teutonic language and arrived in Normandy around 488, where his Ripuarian Frank cousins still had linguistic and cultural memories of being Frankish, so of course took to him quite well. There is disagreement among prehistorians, though, about when exactly to start calling them Ripuarian Franks (from the few names we have, I think they were Ripuarian Franks before Clovis, who is Eastern Frankish).

    My French ancestors come from this period (and later); they were Frankish. They intermarried with the local descendants of the Saxons and Frisians and, occasionally, Celtic leaders. By then, I think Celtic and Frankish were clearly delineated languages and these marriage would have felt inter-tribal (but not particularly intercultural and doubtfully "inter-racial" since the people of Normandy would have looked very much like people of the invading Franks.) The Franks adopted the local language for administrative and obvious culture reasons.

    In the late 800's/early 900's, Vikings/Norsemen then came in and looted Normandy and took big chunks of property. These are the Normans who give the place its name. Everyone probably knows the story of Rollo - real name Rolf - and wife Poppa, who got all the way to Paris in their invasion (my ancestors include both Clovis and Rollo and Poppa). They failed to capture Paris and were made vassals of Frankish King Charles (the Simple). Rollo is also known as Robert of Normandy and is the founder of the Dukedom of Normandy. These Danes were so well-organized that they could exact tribute in their lands and pay up to the King, making them quite popular with the Frankish kings (whose grip on the commoners of Normandy wasn't so tight).

    For practical reasons and due to treaty terms in 911, the descendants of Rollo and Poppa adopted the Gallo-Romanic language spoken in the Parisian region as well, though they were either Danish or Norwegian (I think Danish, following William of Jumièges's story). And they converted to Christianity as part of the treaty terms.

    Rollo had many Danish chieftains with him (and he wasn't the paramount chief of the expedition - many of these Norsemen ended up elsewhere in Northern France), but he divided up Normandy among them and scarcely a person with roots in Normandy can be found who doesn't have Norse ancestry from that period (and Frankish ancestry from the period immediately before).

    So Normandy was never firmly and clearly in the hands of Gauls - although if one wants to call the people there before 3000BP "Proto-Celto-Teutons", I suppose that might be accurate. They certainly couldn't be Germanic before the rise of German, but they were likely already linguistically and genetically distinct in several ways from other Celts (some people make a big deal out of these differences, others point out how closely related Celts and Teutons actually were - or, for that matter, at 3000BP, that there was still a Celto-Teutonic-Slavic continuum of languages that were distinct from Latin, all of them under pressure from Latin to change). All the sound shifts (including the centum/satem shift) were not impermeable to other borrowings and grammatic shifts, especially when in contact with the Romans. And language does not equate to genes OR culture (so that blue eyes are found on both sides of the centum/satem line, and very early, too - my opinion).

    Poppa, Rollo's wife, btw, was Neustrian, not Danish. Rollo was, after all, a Prince of Denmark and followed royal rules for marriage with offspring of powerful rulers outside his own kingdom.

    Rollo also married a daughter (Gisela) of Charles III to cement that relationship but was never very fond of Christianity. When he realized he was dying, he renounced it and beheaded 100 Christians to favor his own gods.

    Over the years, the extreme desirability of marrying into the noble families meant that virtually everyone in Normandy was descended from Franks, Normans and Neustrians (the higher the family in status, the more Teutonic they would be).

    Of course, the fact that people (cousins of eventual Celts, Frisians and Franks) had been living in Normandy since at least 28,000BP is always in the background. Breaking people down into small units is the past time and hobby of some folks, others of us see a lot of continuity into the present time.

    But Northern French people are genetically related to Germanics (and vice versa). Since Northern French language was Romanicized and not especially Germanicized, and Germanic was initially a primarily linguistic designation, one will have to make up their own mind about other issues of ancestry (ancestry is not just language, obviously - I'm typing in English right now, although I have many ancestors who were not British and, of four grandparents, only one identified herself as English - and she's the one who is a descendant of Normans).

    I've been focused on earlier periods of prehistory throughout the last several years and am still learning/consolidating Norman history - so please feel free to correct or amend what I've written (if you could plow through it), I'm all ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have more French members here from that portion of the country. It seems like we have zero French members here.

    I think alot of us dismiss France out of hand needlessly alot sometimes but as others here mention the French and us have a great deal of many things in common.
    Part french here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egill View Post
    Well, French people don't strike me as very Germanic, they all seem exotic to one degree or another. I'm sure that the people who live close to the German border are mixed with the Germans, but the French, as I understand it, are Latin.
    Negative, the french are germanic. As for Italians, I consider them the european spics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egill View Post
    Well, French people don't strike me as very Germanic, they all seem exotic to one degree or another. I'm sure that the people who live close to the German border are mixed with the Germans, but the French, as I understand it, are Latin.
    France has been receiving immigrants since the late 19th century. In addition to North Africans & sub-Saharan-Africans, France has received millions of other Europeans - Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Poles, Jews, along with Chrisitans from the Middle East, e.g. Catholic-Arabs, Armenians. Sarkozy is a Hungarian-Greek-Jewish mix. Don't know what percentage these other European & their descendents make up of the French population but my previous post was referring to the indigenous French.

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    The indigenous French are a dying breed these days - in the same way as Napoleon III did his best by excavating at Alesia and bringing to light France's Celtic past to prove his point that the French were NOT a Germanic people, so today's French politicians try to hammer into the heads of common people that they are a mixed race and that our future lies in the rapid africanization and slow islamization of French society.

    The turning point was of course the French revolution of 1789, when France ceased to regard the Franks as the founding fathers of the country. The 1870 war was another one, because our ruling élite had to justify the antagonism between Prussia and France by refocusing the French on their Gaulish roots : we were not descended from the Franks any more but a Celtic nation united to fight off the invading Caesar/Kaiser.

    So my point of view on the question is that the possible "Germanic-hood" of certain parts of France will invariably be blurred by other elements which have nothing to do with plain common sense.

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    Alsace-Lorraine was almost entirely Germanic until 1918 (although many its bourgeois elites were already French or Francophile traitors before that, as Pierre Zind demonstrates in Elsaß-Lothringen: Une Nation interdite).

    After 1945, the French government organized the genocide through interdiction of the language, and immigration of French-speaking people from the North (who at least were racially sub-Nordic), as well as Italian, Spanish and Portuguese manual workers.

    The current population is very much a soul-less, culture-less bastard mix of the descendants of those immigrants and of the local population. So all is left to that bastard population is this artificial "French" identity. See Alsace-Lorraine — an Enclave of Ethnic Germans in France

    [The same thing is now happening in Luxembourg, where the huge amount of Italian and Portuguese immigrants is only met by one requirement from the Luxemburgers: that they shall speak the local dialect (a peasant form of Plattdeutsch - Low German). They don't care about race and ethnicity, only about the language, in order to preserve a bit of "local" flavor and warm-fuzzy homey feeling.

    While the logical thing to do would be precisely the opposite: ditch the useless dialect, adopt High German / French bilinguism but preserve the race at all costs]

    Then the television finished the job, by impregnating everyone with a Parisian subculture. Starting from the 1960s, people did not learn their ethnic culture from each other or from their neighbors anymore, but from the TV of the central state, which helped to destroy the culture.

    France is an artificial state based on the principles of Cultural Marxism, while Germany is an ethnic nation. Germanness is something which is transmitted through family culture and blood, while Frenchness is submission to a centralized state and its court/plotting culture. So, every single intermarriage destroys the German culture in its children, while strengthening the French culture. Bastards naturally feel at home in an universalist, Marxist French culture).

    The more bastards, the more Marxism - and the more Marxism, the more bastards.

    Add to this the German tendency to submit to whatever "authority" is in charge, and now they all believe themselves to be French. This is similar to how many recent German immigrants to the USA, 15 years later fought against their own country in WWII because they believed themselves to be "Americans", just by virtue of language and citizenship.

    You won't see a Chechen fighting against his own race, but the German does it all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lothringer View Post
    The turning point was of course the French revolution of 1789, when France ceased to regard the Franks as the founding fathers of the country. The 1870 war was another one, because our ruling élite had to justify the antagonism between Prussia and France by refocusing the French on their Gaulish roots : we were not descended from the Franks any more but a Celtic nation united to fight off the invading Caesar/Kaiser.
    That revolution has been so successful and the French have been so brainwashed that even the French nationalists mostly do not question the concept of the French Republic.

    And when they do, they do not even question their blue-white-red flag (even the Vichy government of 1940-1945 did not remove that ugly symbol of the bourgeois/Jewish revolution of 1789).

    This is the true flag of ethnic Celto-Germanic France that has been in use for 1,500 years (the Fleur-de-Lys are a profound symbol of the Merovingians (who were still Aryan priest-kings following the ancient custom) that can be traced back to the Sumerians and are a reminder of the Aryan Trinity of all things - an equivalent meaning to the Teutonic and Vedic Black-White-Red) - if I identified as a Frenchman I would not accept anything else as my ethnic flag:

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