Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: National Socialism Is Platonic in Origin

  1. #1
    Senior Member Paradigm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 24th, 2011 @ 06:43 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    English/Irish/German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Virginia Virginia
    Gender
    Politics
    Anarcho-Capitalist
    Posts
    297
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    National Socialism Is Platonic in Origin

    I thought of originally putting this in question form, but I'm already standing in the "affirmative" of the idea; that it is Platonic.

    The ideal state would be the Tripartite State, an ideal state broken into three classes: Guardians, Auxiliaries/Military, and Producers.

    Plato believed the rank of the Guardian class is open to all classes of children, and that children in their early years of development must be constantly monitored and tested, so the children of the highest intelligence will be selected for the Guardian class. The training is done by education and service to the State. Education and music is strictly monitored for health of mind and body, and they would be trained in a variety of subjects. By age 30 through their series of intense education involving mind and body, there would be another selection of who's to advance to the study of dialectic, which would consume five years of study. After their study, they would be sent to hold a military position, and to receive general knowledge in everyday politics. They would spend 15 years in a probationary period (this would assumed to be the position from dialectic training from age 35 to age 50). Those who have met the last test would be admitted to the governing class.

    The lives of the Guardians and Military would be extremely strenuous and disciplined through dedication to the State. Guardian and Military class would not be allowed to own private property or money, and would live like soldiers in barracks with common meals, only to receive the basic necessities from the Producer class. They are to have no family, so there would be no conflict of interest involving family loyalty and State loyalty. During their sexual prime they will breed through planned occasions by the State, and the mates selected by the State to breed humans scientifically in order to create the best children possible (best male with best female). The children will be raised in a command nursery with no personal attachments to their biological parents. They will regard all of those who mated in the Sacred Marriage as their parents.

    The lives of the Producers will follow the old patterns and traditions of family, friends, home, work, property, and money. Generally, they would live regular lives with the exception of censorship by the State. There would be government regulated accumulation of wealth to maintain the economy in moderation (this resembles Keynesian theory of trying to keep the economy in quasi-boom by printing money and lowering interest rates). The Producers are the only class to keep gold/silver, have a traditional family, and are free in sexual activity. They would be trained in a profession to best serve the needs of society. This would be determined by the Guardians. The Producer would be maintained by State propaganda in patriotism, loyalty, work motivation, and anything to keep them from thinking outside of their social class. Literature and art would be extremely monitored and censored to maintain a sense of ideal morality amongst the class.

    Plato rejected individualism and democracy and advocated supremacy of the State.

    It seems that in many aspects that National Socialism is influenced by the city-state outlined by Plato in his Republic. Thoughts on this?
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

  2. #2
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 12:28 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Western
    Country
    Other Other
    Gender
    Posts
    1,983
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    32
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    61
    Thanked in
    29 Posts
    Considering that National-Socialism was given only 6 years (respective of the war) to develop, I don't think we can draw too many conclusions about the extent of its intentions.
    That being said with what we did see, I think the description you've provided fits pretty well.
    Gaurdians: National-Socialist Party Officials
    Auxillaries/Military: Order of the SS and Wehrmacht
    Producers: Deutsche Bauer und Arbeiter

    Like my signature says “Nobility will no longer be a feature of a caste constituting a horizontal social layer, but will pass vertically through all the ranks of the folk.” – Alfred Rosenberg. All ranks of the folk being those provided above, Rosenberg being a key NS intellectual.
    Essentially the aim was to create the ideal Aryan state.

  3. #3
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Bittereinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, May 6th, 2019 @ 07:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    Boer
    Ancestry
    Netherlands, Germany & Norway
    Subrace
    Faordiby
    State
    Orange Free State Orange Free State
    Location
    Grootrivier
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Cognitive Dissident
    Politics
    Verwoerdian
    Religion
    Heretic
    Posts
    1,593
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    200
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    281
    Thanked in
    159 Posts
    One difference I can descry is that in NSDAP Germany the "Military class" was allowed and encouraged to reproduce because the attributes a soldier possesses is something that from a eugenic point of view needed to be preserved and bettered, these attributes are not solely useful in the military. Looking at South Africa it was the soldiers who later became the pillars of society in many ways. Also I think that Germanics placed more emphasis on family as the centre of the state where Plato made the state itself the centre.
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

  4. #4
    Senior Member Paradigm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 24th, 2011 @ 06:43 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    English/Irish/German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Virginia Virginia
    Gender
    Politics
    Anarcho-Capitalist
    Posts
    297
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    If we agree that National Socialism is Platonic, is it safe to say the idea is foreign to Germanics? Was the Third Reich just another Greek city-state in the works?
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

  5. #5
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Bittereinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, May 6th, 2019 @ 07:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    Boer
    Ancestry
    Netherlands, Germany & Norway
    Subrace
    Faordiby
    State
    Orange Free State Orange Free State
    Location
    Grootrivier
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Cognitive Dissident
    Politics
    Verwoerdian
    Religion
    Heretic
    Posts
    1,593
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    200
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    281
    Thanked in
    159 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post
    If we agree that National Socialism is Platonic, is it safe to say the idea is foreign to Germanics? Was the Third Reich just another Greek city-state in the works?
    No, I think you missed my post the family is the centre not the state...
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

  6. #6
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 12:28 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Western
    Country
    Other Other
    Gender
    Posts
    1,983
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    32
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    61
    Thanked in
    29 Posts
    Good ideas (in my opinion) are not to be looked at as foreign, good ideas are universal, especially not in the case of so foreign as "Greek". We as a civilization would get nowhere if somewhere along the line we never "stole" or borrowed ideas from eachother. We all have the same wants, desires, pains, and pleasures. It' not as if these things are separated by our ethnicities.
    If something works, why not use it? Are we so shallow to omit that because, if what you say is true about the Greek city-state, that we as Germanics cannot use it?
    Remember now, we all come from the same European stock. We're brothers by blood, it's time we start acting like it.

    Call it a Germanic City-State. Same effect.

  7. #7
    Moderator "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 08:36 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Bavarii, Saxones, Suebi, Alamanni
    Subrace
    Borreby + Atlantonordoid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Einöde in den Alpen
    Gender
    Age
    31
    Zodiac Sign
    Libra
    Family
    Engaged
    Politics
    Tradition & Homeland
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    9,109
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    218
    Thanked in
    127 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post
    I thought of originally putting this in question form, but I'm already standing in the "affirmative" of the idea; that it is Platonic. [...] It seems that in many aspects that National Socialism is influenced by the city-state outlined by Plato in his Republic. Thoughts on this?
    View what it says under "Politics" in my post-bit, and I believe there need to be no explanation. I find especially the Platonic idea of the leader being a "philosopher king" a true representation of how NS should be executed with one of its basic tenets, the Führer Principle--- pragmatic NS is Platonic, not Machiavellian in nature.

    The point being here - the Führer is absolute, but he doesn't over-exercise his power. The folk know a natural hierarchy, and will respect those above them in hierarchy unquestioned as long as those make wise decisions (which one truly made to be a leader will) - but for the most part, he'll leave people to lead their own lives in their very own community, will only seek to interfere against things that go against the well-being of the folk whilst encouraging things that further the well-being of the folk, yet standing with indifference those things that neither benefit nor threaten the well-being of that folk.

    In its very own way, old Germanic kingship was aligned after this principle as well. In fact, all old Indo-European kingship was aligned after such principles, as it is essentially the natural method of living, and especially the natural method of living for our wider folk family (many other folk families and indeed races miss the basic understanding by virtue of their lesser intellectual and spiritual development, and even an aristocratic principle by which they act will make them fall short of demands) and generally the intelligent peoples of the world.

    The only criticism to give would be the one that Grimner has already mentioned, that Platon over-exaggerates the validation from above whilst in truth, the basic Germanic principle which underlies our thinking (as it naturally sprung from our thought and folk memory) accepts that validation is automatically from above and below; the family as the centre of the more farming-orientated Germanics since antiquity, much more prominently so than in Greek thought and culture (and thus explained away with cultural differences), the perception of natural standing of women is also different in Graeco-Roman vs. Celto-Germanic thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post
    If we agree that National Socialism is Platonic, is it safe to say the idea is foreign to Germanics? Was the Third Reich just another Greek city-state in the works?
    No, I would not say so. What Platonic thought is essentially about is that it revolves much around observation of Nature's Laws (this includes his treatise of jurisprudence, modern-day Naturalists such as Fuller or Finnis looked to Plato), and hence we find a certain truth in his words. However, that doesn't make his thoughts solely his, nor those thoughts foreign.

    It is what Wittgenstein (a Jew, naturally --- and curiously like Hart and Kelsen, those who gave birth to our extreme Positivist jurisprudence, being a grotesque perversion of Germanic Bentham's pragmatic Utilitarianism) criticised, that "Platonic type of thinking" --- but we find this Platonic type of thinking also amongst our own German philosophers, some of whom were not briefed with the old Greek tradition. As such, simply because an idea was first documented with a foreign nation, doesn't mean the idea sprung there, or that it is exclusive to that region.

    I think the whole idea of what we call "NS" these days is older than labels for given ideologies, political parties, or such --- it is as old as our folk, and has since been able to develop as a natural method of living for our people. It did not start in 1920 and did not end in 1945, the only thing that changes over time is the name we call it by.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  8. #8
    Moderator "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 08:36 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Bavarii, Saxones, Suebi, Alamanni
    Subrace
    Borreby + Atlantonordoid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Einöde in den Alpen
    Gender
    Age
    31
    Zodiac Sign
    Libra
    Family
    Engaged
    Politics
    Tradition & Homeland
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    9,109
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    218
    Thanked in
    127 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Walhalla-Wacht View Post
    Like my signature says “Nobility will no longer be a feature of a caste constituting a horizontal social layer, but will pass vertically through all the ranks of the folk.” – Alfred Rosenberg. All ranks of the folk being those provided above, Rosenberg being a key NS intellectual.
    Essentially the aim was to create the ideal Aryan state.
    Rosenberg is easily the best. Not just *a* key intellectual, but in my book *the* key intellectual. The Führer's very own thoughts (which, IMO, were influenced much by Heß' thinking as well; a good symbiosis between two honourable men stuck in a cell together) provide a good description of how things are and ought to be --- but National Socialist thought in its historical dimension is not complete without Rosenberg's treatise, with which I find myself sympathise a great deal, and which is timeless reading I turn to regularly.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Paradigm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 24th, 2011 @ 06:43 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    English/Irish/German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Virginia Virginia
    Gender
    Politics
    Anarcho-Capitalist
    Posts
    297
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    I don't agree with how systematic Plato's Tripartite State is, but I do agree on the idea of the philosopher-king, and the amount of devotion and servitude the governing class would pay to it's people. The politicians would be living under a more monk-like life which would eradicate corruption that would arise with affiliations with special interests.

    My problems arise with the selective breeding (I find this rather cold and modern), censorship, and control of the economy.

    I lean towards Aristotle on what's "good" (in contrast to Plato's) which is more utilitarian in nature, and in the idea of the state, in which Aristotle believed in a midway between democracy and oligarchy. A constitutional government with power remaining with property owners (essentially the middle class), this would "balance" the power between the top tier who would rule "despotically" and the bottom tier who would be less knowledgeable and who's rule would be "degraded". The failure of democracy was the ability of any individual to vote away someone's property towards someone else in the name of "wealth distribution" or "taxes" instead of just calling it legal thievery. Aristotle didn't seem to believe in the absolute like Plato, and instead of one absolute truth or government that would be reflective of all cultures and people, that varying constitutions and states would form to reflect that specific group of people or culture.

    Then again, I stand outside both Plato and Aristotle on the idea of the existence of the State on whether their needs to be an outside apparatus and whether or not laws can be issued locally based on private property rights in general.

    In conjunction with the privatization of all assets according to the principles outlined, the government should adopt a private property constitution and declare it to be the immutable basic law of the entire country. This constitution should be extremely brief and lay down the following principles in terms as unambiguous as possible:

    Every person, apart from being the sole owner of his physical body, has the right to employ his private property in anyway he sees fit so long as in doing so he does not uninvitedly change the physical integrity of another person’s body or property. All interpersonal exchanges and all exchanges of property titles between property owners are to be voluntary (contractual). These rights of a person are absolute. Any person’s infringement on them is subject to lawful persecution by the victim of this infringement or his agent, and is actionable in accordance with the principles of proportionality of punishment and of strict liability.
    As implied by this constitution, then, all existing wage and price controls, all property regulations and licensing requirements, and all import and export restrictions should be immediately abolished and complete freedom of contract, occupation, trade and migration introduced. Subsequently, the government, now propertyless, should declare its own continued existence as unconstitutional-in so far as it depends on noncontractual property acquisitions, that is, taxation-and abdicate.
    - Hans Herman-Hoppe
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

  10. #10
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Online
    26 Minutes Ago @ 06:49 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Northern Germany
    Subrace
    Faelid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    North Rhine-Westphalia North Rhine-Westphalia
    Gender
    Age
    46
    Zodiac Sign
    Sagittarius
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pestilent Supremacy
    Politics
    Blut und Boden
    Religion
    Fimbulwinter
    Posts
    4,895
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,197
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,297
    Thanked in
    553 Posts
    Anarcho-capitalist goes NS....


    In your opening post you proclaim the state all-powerful, even goes so far as to censor, dictate and control every single aspect of people's lives.

    But of course, this Hoppe thingy brings back the anarchic "private property and individual rights" principle, that is diametrically opposed to the Platonic all-powerful state, that, through this, gets deprived of power completely and made impotent to enforce any law.

    What about the guardians, who're supposed to live without any property, also without any own thought, need, wish and is made a soulless ant to serve the state? How is this supposed to work out with total(istic) freedom, private property rights, individual terroristic rights (and in this Hoppe thing it really is and is complete anarchic in nature and destructive to the folk-body and the state). How does the top-down breed-programme reconcile with the (anarcho-terrorist) 'unharmable' body that will be harmed through the mere existence of surrounding individuals by this rampant anarcho-freedom-rights?

    Makes absolutely no sense to first declare the state including the philosopher king all-powerful, just to take away the instance that he's supposed to exercise power over by rampant individualism and ruleless freedom that will not accept any rules from 'above' or the community. I know you dont see it as such, because you think everyone would just do the right things always when he's just left alone. This isnt the case though, and the biggest problem really is the rejection of any laws or rules that govern the people in this anarchic, totalist freedom utopia. And Hoppe's vision really also takes away any power from the state (or any other institution which is not the atomized individual) to enforce laws. Another problem is with the rejection of the proper education of the 'producer class', who is (although there is really no instance that could do that, since this anarchism removes all institutions) manipulated by censorship and limited (and kept limited) knowledge and propaganda only, instead of teaching those people proper values, skills, culture and reason to give them the preconditions and means for more freedom in the first place.

    What you put forth now is a complete contradiction to each other. The dictatorial, all-powerful state cannot have anarchistic principles that only destroy the foundation of the human spirit, society and governing principles (in an anarchic "contract" (which also is a contradiction) society / trade system that is anarcho-capitalist in nature there are no more governing principles, because everything can be done by terms of contract and there is neither an instance that could prevent abuse nor punish abuse or to enforce general principles of that society and with that would set limits to the anarcho-contracts and rampant freedom of the individual).
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What is National Socialism
    By Schneider in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Wednesday, May 9th, 2012, 01:00 PM
  2. What Would You Choose? National Socialism or National Anarchism?
    By DieMenschMaschine in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011, 06:51 PM
  3. Chauvinism, National-Socialism or Racial-Socialism?
    By Lusitano in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 07:02 PM
  4. National Socialism - And Not Something Else!
    By Wissen ist Macht in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Saturday, July 2nd, 2005, 10:58 PM
  5. National Socialism and National Anarchism
    By Aethrei in forum Political Theory
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: Saturday, January 31st, 2004, 06:05 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •