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Thread: How Much Celtic and Romanic Influence Is There in Germany?

  1. #1
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    Question How Much Celtic and Romanic Influence Is There in Germany?

    I know there's there's Celtic and Romanic influences in central and south Germany. I know there's Slavic in the East but I don't really care about East Germans, because I don't have any East German in me.

    How much? Curious about everyone's opinions.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I know there's Slavic in the East but I don't really care about East Germans, because I don't have any East German in me.
    How certain are you that you don't have east German ancestors? My grandfather always said he was from Stuttgart, which he was. But later I found out that he was born in Magdeburg. And I hope you didn't specifically mean the country "East Germany". Just because none of your ancestors were ever official East Germans it doesn't mean no one in your family tree was from eastern Germany.

    As far as the extent of Roman and Celtic influence, I'm sorry but I do not know. I know there are some Germans who could pass for Italians. I remember coming across a quote by Hitler in which he referred to Goebbels as a Mediterranean Aryan.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    How certain are you that you don't have east German ancestors? My grandfather always said he was from Stuttgart, which he was. But later I found out that he was born in Magdeburg. And I hope you didn't specifically mean the country "East Germany". Just because none of your ancestors were ever official East Germans it doesn't mean no one in your family tree was from eastern Germany.

    As far as the extent of Roman and Celtic influence, I'm sorry but I do not know. I know there are some Germans who could pass for Italians. I remember coming across a quote by Hitler in which he referred to Goebbels as a Mediterranean Aryan.
    I'm pretty sure I don't have any East German in me. I look nothing like a Slav. No one would ever mistaken me for a Pole or Russian. My ancestors are from South Germany. Goebbels could pass for a normal German, and I don't know why you brought him up.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    This is the answer you're looking for. I'm shocked at how clearly I wrote this.

    I understand what you're asking but you asked the wrong question.

    First and foremost, Celtic is not an ethnic group but a linguistic-cultural group going across almost all ethnicities throughout Europe. The Celts once stretched from Ireland to Ukraine to Turkey to Spain. The Celts originated along the Danube in Southern Germany- Danu is the Celtic god. Click this link for more information.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

    Also, for Romanic influence, Romanic was also simply a linguistic-cultural group and not an ethnic group.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now that I got that out of the way let us move on to genetic influence in modern day Germany. I'm going to focus on 5 genetic migrations.

    1) Thousands of years ago, the first farmers came from Anatolia (Turkey) and moved into modern day Germany. However, they left ZERO genetic influence because the natives were able to learn from them and quickly out populated them. Here is information on that migration and the little genetic influence they had- make sure you read all my posts on this thread.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=136884

    2) The Indo-European expansion (which originated in Southern Russia, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and where the Indo-European language comes from, and eventually Germanic languages) also had negligible genetic influence on modern day Germany. Read the book "10,000 year explosion for this information". Also an interesting section in this book about lactose tolerance, but if I told you it here it would only confuse you because it goes into genetic theory- so just buy the book- you will love it really. It's only 10$.
    http://www.amazon.com/000-Year-Explo...2171066&sr=8-1

    3) Next the Romans controlled certain parts of Germania; inferior and superior which were large (much of even modern day Germany) but small compared to the massive lands of Germania itself. During this time they brought in foreign armies to help control the populations- but these had negligible influences because they came in such small numbers. Read about it here- read sotens posts on page 2.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137380
    wikipedia germania inferior and superior for the exact locations on those Roman states.

    4) When the northern Germanic invaders came south and began to collide with the Roman Empire genetic mixture happened as well. I strongly suspect that it was much like the previous migrations and only a small genetic influence occurred. The increasingly smaller Celtic groups of modern day Germany were squeezed between the massive Germanic cultural-linguistic group from the north and the Romans Empire (cultural-linguistic group) from the south until it faded away.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=134941

    5) And finally within countries genetic migrations happen. During the Holy Roman Empire for example, it was common for people to move between Northern Italy and Germany/Austria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire

    I think the key to this is that the Germans (at least in each area) stayed largely intact throughout history as a solid defined genetic group of people despite even the changes in cultural-linguistic groups.

    Sadly, I have yet to see any all encompassing study done on Germany and its genetic heritage. But a good example is the book "Blood of the Isles" (or maybe it was one of Bryan Sykes other books?), about how large the genetic migrations into the British Isles influenced each area and the country genetically. Fascinating book though I have only read the results concluded in the book and have yet to read it myself. I believe their conclusion is that the British Isles are something like 85% native despite the Vikings (5% genetic influence), Normans (5% genetic influence), and all other invasions and migrations. DNA does not lie.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Wulfram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Goebbels could pass for a normal German, and I don't know why you brought him up.
    He is not what I would consider to be the norm at all, and is about as exotic as a German can get but still qualify...just barely.
    The obvious Med. influence really pushes the limits.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wynterwade View Post
    1) Thousands of years ago, the first farmers came from Anatolia (Turkey) and moved into modern day Germany. However, they left ZERO genetic influence because the natives were able to learn from them and quickly out populated them. Here is information on that migration and the little genetic influence they had- make sure you read all my posts on this thread.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=136884
    It's not zero. If the LBK left no genetics behind then Germany would be dark orange. It's green. Most of those LBK skeletons tested were found in Germany.

    2) The Indo-European expansion (which originated in Southern Russia, between the Black and Caspian Seas, and where the Indo-European language comes from, and eventually Germanic languages) also had negligible genetic influence on modern day Germany.
    You don't know this. The IE didn't originate in Southern Russia.

    3) Next the Romans controlled certain parts of Germania; inferior and superior which were large (much of even modern day Germany) but small compared to the massive lands of Germania itself. During this time they brought in foreign armies to help control the populations- but these had negligible influences because they came in such small numbers. Read about it here- read sotens posts on page 2.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137380
    wikipedia germania inferior and superior for the exact locations on those Roman states.

    4) When the northern Germanic invaders came south and began to collide with the Roman Empire genetic mixture happened as well. I strongly suspect that it was much like the previous migrations and only a small genetic influence occurred. The increasingly smaller Celtic groups of modern day Germany were squeezed between the massive Germanic cultural-linguistic group from the north and the Romans Empire (cultural-linguistic group) from the south until it faded away.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=134941
    Soten said they got to West and South Germany including the Netherlands and Switzerland. Legacy of the Roman Empire


    5) And finally within countries genetic migrations happen. During the Holy Roman Empire for example, it was common for people to move between Northern Italy and Germany/Austria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire
    I think Celtic is downplayed in Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    He is not what I would consider to be the norm at all, and is about as exotic as a German can get but still qualify...just barely.
    The obvious Med. influence really pushes the limits.
    He looks fully German to me. Calling him exotic is ignorant. Goebbels compared to Folke Bernadotte who is Swedish. What in the world is exotic about him, or are you just copying what others said?



  7. #7
    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    It's not zero. If the LBK left no genetics behind then Germany would be dark orange. It's green. Most of those LBK skeletons tested were found in Germany.
    You're right I forgot to use the world negligible as in so close to zero that it has not solidly been traced in todays current population. Regardless, zero, negligible, who really cares- they both capture the same point I was making.

    You don't know this. The IE didn't originate in Southern Russia.
    Read the book the "10,000 year explosion". This is the mainstream view. "Mainstream scholarship places them in the general region of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe and Central Asia" according to Wikipedia.

    The people who say they came from other places have NOT provided sufficient evidence to support their claims. Some have said places that have been disproved such as Anatolia. You say they didn't originate in Southern Russia- please make your case I'd love to hear it.

    Soten said they got to West and South Germany including the Netherlands and Switzerland. Legacy of the Roman Empire
    I think Celtic is downplayed in Germany.
    Right just as I said in my post.

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    Senior Member Wulfram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    He looks fully German to me. Calling him exotic is ignorant. Goebbels compared to Folke Bernadotte who is Swedish.
    About the only resemblance between the wikipedia images you provided is that they both have prominent foreheads and slicked-back hair.
    If you say he resembles a German using one photo of a Swede for a comparative example then your argument is even more laughable.

    Here are a few images I found. Please explain why you feel these men resemble each other enough to qualify Goebbels as fully German.
    In fact, you have still yet to give any explanation at all for why you think he is an exemplar of how a German is supposed to look.







    What in the world is exotic about him, or are you just copying what others said?
    Even when I was still a practicing liberal and parroting anti-Nazi/German sentiment I suspected that something wasn't quite right about his appearance.
    He, as well as Himmler looked so odd when one compared them to what was considered ideal.
    My suspicions were only confirmed after I joined here and heard numerous others expressing the same opinion.
    So in a way I guess I am copying them, because they were able to express themselves so much better on the subject.

    Here is just one of those threads in which the peculiar appearance of the Third Reich leadership is discussed:

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.p...hlight=himmler

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    Senior Member Leonhardt's Avatar
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    These percentages are for Y-DNA of Europeans. There is less than half the Pre-Germanic in Germany(-22%) compared to Sweden, and twice as much Celtic in the South and West(+26%). There is comparatively less R1a in the South and West of Germany(-14%) than Sweden.

    There were other groups in the area besides Celtics and Romans, such as Turks and Slavics.

    It is speculated that the Romans were a varied bunch. The southern influences estimated into Southern Germany for G2 Caucasian, J2 Greek, and E1 North African Coast combined tended to range around +18% compared to Sweden, +16% in West Germany compared to Sweden, +11% in East Germany, and +8% in the North.
    Using this estimate, it would be +26% for Austria compared to Sweden, and +22% for Switzerland, although Switzerland is not divided into regions for the Eupedia site. It also has French and Italian regions. Switzerland has a very similar mix to Southern Germany. The similar results could be because they were both partially in the Roman Empire.

    Sweden , bolded is % in Sweden
    42% I1 Pre-Germanic

    Regular font is % for Germany, divided into 4 regions.
    West Germany 13%, East Germany 19.5%
    There is less than half Pre-Germanic in Germany compared to Sweden.

    Sweden 0% I2 Dinaric
    +5% South Germany

    2% I2b Pre-Celtic-Germanic
    7% West Germany, which is +5%

    23.5% R1a Slavic
    23-24% North and East, South and West 9%

    21% R1b Celtic
    47-48% South and West which is double the Celtic in these regions compared to Sweden, North and East 36-38% which is approximately +15%

    0.5% G2a Caucasian
    7.5% in the South, +7%

    1% J2 Greek
    5.5% in the South, +4.5%

    0% J1 Arab
    little difference

    1% E1b1 North African Coast
    7.5-8% in South, East and West which is +6.5% over much of Germany

    0% T Near Eastern
    little difference

    0.5% Q Native American Related
    little difference

    7% N1c1 Baltic
    7% in Sweden most likely Finns living over there, very few in Germany.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

  10. #10
    Rick
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    changed username from "unregistered" to differentiate from the orig. poster - I am the first one to have responded to this post

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I'm pretty sure I don't have any East German in me. I look nothing like a Slav. No one would ever mistaken me for a Pole or Russian. My ancestors are from South Germany. Goebbels could pass for a normal German, and I don't know why you brought him up.
    I will accept that your ancestors are not from the east. However, though there are varying opinions about the Slavic influence on eastern Germany, I don't think anyone believes that the majority of eastern Germans betray Slavic features. It just isn't so.

    Like Ronan, I always thought Goebbels looked rather un-German. When I read the quote by Hitler referring to him as a Mediterranean Aryan, I felt justified. I always thought he was Italian-looking. Swarthy. He reminds me of Joel Grey in Cabaret.

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