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Thread: Is It True That Racial Mixing Even Hapened During the Pagan Ages?

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    People were tribal. They spoke different languages, had different customs, different kin groups, why would they be inter marrying foriegners? They weren't brainwashed with multiculturalism back then either.

    I don't think the ancient people had a concept of *race* as in modern times (a european race). Yet they mostly married their cousins and were tribal. Sometimes they stole women from other groups I guess that's where the female mixing comes in.

    Yet during later times nobility could only mate with other nobility to be pure. But they also mated with slaves, the children of which were considered low ranking.

    I think people were busier trying to survive, finding food and not being killed rather than worrying about race. The Greeks and Romans were the first to have large scale race mixing, which was mainly confined to the lower classes at first.

    Roman rulers intermarried Germanic rulers back in later roman times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    They weren't driven off, they were evacuated by the Romans when they abandoned the Agri Decumates and much of their other Germanic provinces on the right side of the Rhine around the year 300. They weren't surprised by some major Germanic attack, which probably never happened on a large scale there. I said most by the way, not completely.
    As for the killings, it's known through archaeological findings.
    Most of the elite was going, but its very hard to imagine that the average peasants and farmers left in their majority - where to go from their homelands?

    That didn't happen.

    So we have always to ask about the proportions of newcomers and older inhabitants. F.e. in Austria you can make maps for areas which were inhabited by Celto-Romans - and those which were settled by Slavs later - all of those got a Germanic influx and mixed, while there were areas in which no Slavs or Celto-Romans lived before which were settled completely new by Germanic newcomers sometimes.

    But those Germanic newcomers were already mixed most of the time, because this process happened from Northern Germany to Southern Germany-Austria not just once, but many times in a row.

    And it wasn't really different from other regions, even in Northern Europe, where pre-Germanic people were assimilated earlier.

    Looking at the Indoeuropean and Germanic expansions, they always met other people and mixed with them - sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes with more fixed rules and even caste like distinctions, sometimes less...

    Map for Austria for the time of the Germanic-Bavarian colonisation - don't forget that Germanics came there before too, but this was the big and finally "Germanicising" wave which made this area a German country:



    Germanics came to all those areas (!), but blue were rather new Bavarian-Germanic settlements, with very little to no pre-Bavarian population.

    This might serve as an example for what you could have observed in many parts of Europe, not just for Germanics, but Romans and Slavs etc. too obviously...

    And of course, mixing with other Europeans is not racial mixing really, to point that out too...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Most of the elite was going, but its very hard to imagine that the average peasants and farmers left in their majority - where to go from their homelands?

    That didn't happen.
    Southwestern Germany was a special case it was only sparsely populated during the Roman occupation and much of the population was brought in from Gallia. It was also a special case in so far as they weren't surprised by an invasion but because they decided to abandon it on their own to shorten the front line. I find it rather hard to imagine that people should stay at a place where they face relatively certain death. They were probably transferred to urban areas of Gaul, although this is of course disputable. Of course there were survivors though, most likely being the primary factor of the later reemergence of the Alpine race there.

    I agree with the rest of your post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Southwestern Germany was a special case it was only sparsely populated during the Roman occupation and much of the population was brought in from Gallia. It was also a special case in so far as they weren't surprised by an invasion but because they decided to abandon it on their own to shorten the front line. I find it rather hard to imagine that people should stay at a place where they face relatively certain death. They were probably transferred to urban areas of Gaul, although this is of course disputable. Of course there were survivors though, most likely being the primary factor of the later reemergence of the Alpine race there.

    I agree with the rest of your post.
    Obviously there were connections to the Germanics already, they made trade and had contacts, Germanics were even there already, just as inhabitants of a Roman province, being no longer part of a Germanic tribal group - which they later became again.

    You just have look at the records and different cases, it wasn't always the same obviously, because if you really had to expect being killed, fleeing was more likely an alternative than if you had hope for surviving under the new regime - as always.

    Especially Southern Germany and Austria is hilly terrain, ideal for people to hide and staying away from the bigger crossroads and the like. You have just compare with the situation in many parts of South Eastern Europe, were Romanised elements survived not just one Germanic invasion, which was good organised and relatively humane, but many invasions of quite brutal people in a row!

    If you look at that, and at the genetic differences in Central Europe, it is obvious that a large part of the Romanised population must have survived and mixed into a new ethnic group - Ethnogenesis in the making is what you can see in a lot of such cases with a substrata and superstrata, depending on various factors...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_toms View Post
    Our ancestorz intermixed even with neanderthals, that made us what we are
    that's strange, since Neanderthals were stout and rather stocky, and completely lacked chins, and authentic modern Europids have very elegantly sculpted bodies, and have strong jawlines and chins.

    As for race-mixing, it naturally happened in Southern Europe, I don't see how it could possibly happen in Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest King View Post
    that's strange, since Neanderthals were stout and rather stocky, and completely lacked chins, and authentic modern Europids have very elegantly sculpted bodies, and have strong jawlines and chins.

    As for race-mixing, it naturally happened in Southern Europe, I don't see how it could possibly happen in Northern Europe.
    Lapps and other Siberian influenced people?

    Mixture with slaves and Inuits, immigrants from the South?

    Obviously it happened everywhere and the most secure isolation is spacial segregation. So as a rule of thumb, the further a people lived away throughout prehistory and history from foreign elements, the less mixed they are.

    There are however exceptions from that rule, especially if there were strong socio-cultural barriers, especially along religious based lines...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    "Perhaps the most notably 'specialised' auxiliary regiment in Britain was the 500 strong 'quingenary' cohort of Syrian archers. "Cohors Prima Hamiorum Sagittaria", a unit of bowmen recruited from the Hamian tribesmen from the city of Hama in the Orontes valley in northern Syria, one of only two whole regiments of archers known to have been stationed in Britain. The other being a reference in the Notitia Dignitatum of the 'Numerus Syrorum Saggitariorum' - 'The Company of Syrian Archers' from Malton (Derventio Brigantium) in Yorkshire. This could well be the last incarnation of the former unit.

    What was the population of Roman Britain, 1 million, 2 million? There were Syrian, Thracian, Sarmatians etc.... troops in Britain, but just what was their genetic impact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    What was the population of Roman Britain, 1 million, 2 million? There were Syrian, Thracian, Sarmatians etc.... troops in Britain, but just what was their genetic impact?
    I was going to post a study that might have been of interest, but I couldn't find it again via Google. The main thrust was that the concentration of Y chromosone marker 'HG21' in certain British towns of significance in the Roman period was essentially due to the importation of Danubian mercenaries. There's a Welsh town, Abergele, where the frequency of that marker is somewhere in the region of 45%. For comparison: In England, the average frequency of HG21 is 3%.

    With the study, there was an interesting map that showed the distribution of HG21 in the British Isles, and it was shockingly localised. Literally, in Wales the concentration was specifically in Abergele, with a few sharp circular clines around it, and the rest of Wales was on par with most of England. There was a similar, though less exteme, trend in parts of England.

    So there's a few things too consider: The importation of these people has little to no effect on settlements with minimal or no Roman history. The fact that the trend is diluted in England implies either that the proportion of Danubians in Abergale was much higher than elsewhere, or that the English in historically Roman towns are less descended from pre-Germanic inhabitants than their welsh counterparts.

    Keep in mind, though, that HG21 can be much more common in the Dutch (2-8%) and the Germans (0-8%) than in the English, so the 3% isn't necessarily entirely attributable to Danubian populations either.

    So the question remains what effect they had. Well, basically, none. I've been to Abergele, or at least the neighbouring settlement, without even knowing it was near the 45% HG21 study (which I'd read, just not realised where it was), and I remember noting how similar the Welsh were to the English in appearance, given what I constantly read on anthropology sites. And that's without even realising these people were 45% (or slightly less, given it was only the neighbouring town) HG21. The sites Soten linked to also mention these Syrians were stationed in Malton. I've been to Malton, and, again, the people look like the Anglo-Saxon/Danish descended folks that all Yorkshire people are.

    Keep in mind that Danubians at the time hadn't been Mongolised or particularly 'Turkified'. The only significant racial impact from them would be a small proportion of neolithic blood, which exists at higher levels throughout Europe anyway. The Syrians, slightly less desirable, but still Caucasoid and probably of a much higher racial quality than Middle Easterns of today (a large factor being little to no infusion of negroid blood at that time). And keep in mind 500 in 1000000 is small (0.05%), and this is before the further dilution by Angles, Saxons and Danes. They weren't even significant enough to effect the racial character of the town they were stationed in (Malton) much less the entire country.

    The only question I have is what and where were the Egyptian temples the page mentioned? I couldn't find any other references about them online. The page was politically correct BS, though, so maybe they made it up.

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    I don't know if our ancestors looked at themselves racially or not but there is evidence of the ancient Greeks within Europe positing differences of race in ancient times by ancient diplomatic records with other foreign nations from which ancient Greek diplomats would comment on if you read various forms of ancient Greek literature.

    At any rate the reason that our ancestors probally didn't have to look upon race as much is because they were in that part of history so isolated amongst themselves that differences of race was so uncommon to them that they didn't feel the need to talk about it extensively because there was no need to facilitate a reason to.

    Once our nations started to expand more globally and acquire relations more on a international front do we start seeing the discussion of race being more prominent as a way of expressing a difference of ourselves from everybody else on this planet in that often enough human social interaction revolves around a us and them mentality of distinguishment.

    Did the ancient Europeans interracially mix?


    I'm sure there was on some level but culturally and religiously I'm sure it was discouraged as well relatively in comparison to what we have now which is fully endorsed by a specific pervasive ideology that goes by many names.

    Of course in ancient times like some others mentioned I'm sure the more northern frontier of Europe including greater Scandinavia was untouched of it.

    Usually the more isolated the nation was in comparison to foreign racial elements the less of a chance that it happened at all in any way being frequent.

    It seems foreign racial others in contrast were more opt to interracially mixing with others like all those Arab harems as comparison where they would purchase all the female slaves they could from the European mainland to fill up their brothels historically usually against their will of course.

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    How much impact did slavery have on Scandinavia?

    Dont know if you can answer this or not, but ill give it a try.

    Slaves were about 5-10% of the population in many parts of Scandinavia until it was abolished around 1100AD. They were taken from other parts of Europe, mainly GB and Eastern Europe. Generations passed, they reproduced and many became free, and were later assimilated into the socity as nearly equals. Mostly as tenant farmers, crofters and clerks. So my question is, how much impact did this human transportation have on Scandinavia, and what were the most dominant racial groups in England and Irelands eastern parts, aswell as Normandie and Balticum?

    Reason why im asking this is mainly because at least Norway has had a rather "loose state" with not a very dominant central control. Which made it less likely for people to move away from their birthplace, and more likely for generations to follow their forefathers and have the same socio-econmic status. People didnt marry outside their status, and as a result the subracial types remained relativly intact. Actually I would go so far to say that in many parts of Norway until just recently (1900-1920) were a result of this. And therefore also many/most norwegian-americans since they were likely to have a low socio-economic status to begin with. The black death probably messed things up, but I dont think it affected the rural inland-areas as hard as the coast.

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