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Thread: Free Market Capitalism Incompatible With Nationalism

  1. #21
    Senior Member Paradigm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Through indebting the state and blackmailing the government into signing bills like the Federal Reserve Act. For example.
    The fault of the state, not the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Oh great, everyone's defining what's legal themselves. And America wonders why tons of drugs get smuggled in (why do they even smuggle, simply say its legal, eh), why everyone ignores borders and America's south is swarmed by Mexicans (hey everyone says himself what's legal). Christopher street days with public sex free for viewing for everyone including little kids. And even illegal immigrants can become president.

    Freedom for everyone
    Yeah, we have tons of drugs smuggled in, tons of illegal immigration, and tons of crime, and that's when the government TRIES to solve problems!

    You've just proved my point, twice, in just this one post.
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

  2. #22
    Spenglerian
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Through indebting the state and blackmailing the government into signing bills like the Federal Reserve Act. For example.




    Oh great, everyone's defining what's legal themselves. And America wonders why tons of drugs get smuggled in (why do they even smuggle, simply say its legal, eh), why everyone ignores borders and America's south is swarmed by Mexicans (hey everyone says himself what's legal). Christopher street days with public sex free for viewing for everyone including little kids. And even illegal immigrants can become president.

    Freedom for everyone

    Through indebting the state and blackmailing the government into signing bills like the Federal Reserve Act. For example.
    A great example too.

    Everybody wants to talk about the virtues of a free market capitalist system but when it comes to major banks and private corporate industries controlling their government along with having complete absolute control of their politicians by private corporate lobbying firms all of a sudden capitalism becomes less glamorous where every nationalist starts to realize exactly what their true enemy is.

    [Namely the international free market system.]

    When any private bank, industry, commercial enterprise, and corporation can hustle your government for all it's worth if it becomes large or wealthy enough to own half of your economy in the control of [any] private hands that wields them you know there is a problem within your nation that needs dealing with.

    The fact that international free market capitalism puts more emphasis of value on privatization versus collective public welfare should be telling enough to the point of being obvious of the fundamental problems concerned.


    Æmeric:
    Capitalism & Nationalism can co-exist. We need to view human stock differently from other forms of capital. We can have a laissez faire economic system without also having free immigration & open borders. Also the current "free trade" system is not what Adam Smith envisioned. Free trade meant that competition would force different countries to devote resources to those products and servives they were best suited for, that prohibitively high tariffs protected inefficient industries. Nowadays instead of competitive advantage corprorations are investing in the cheapest labor force. Free trade also has to work both ways, if one side is practicing it & the other is not you will end up with a huge trade imbalance.
    Capitalism and nationalism cannot coexist.

    Even if you strip away free trade principles which has led capitalism to international globalization via global privatized monopolies you still have the deep level of economical privatization that encompasses capitalism which is often enough misused against collective national public welfare.

    It was that level of misuse of commercial privatization that has lead capitalists to embrace free trade which later brought international globalization on us all from which we are taking a brutal toll from within our nations as a people.

    If nationalism is to succeed capitalism as a economical system must be destroyed entirely. I see no other way around this currently.

    The solution to our problems racially, culturally, ethnically, and as a people in the preservation of our history is to nationalize our economies with nationalistic socialist principles in which the general national collective public welfare can be once again protected against unwanted intrusion.

    [Such a nationalized economy would also safe guard against infiltration from within from those who would put privatization of industry and profit over the collective welfare of a nation in that such inside infiltrators must be dealt with in the most extreme manner as a symbol of national coordinated strength.]

    Once you have a nationalized economy it then only follows that you will have a nationalized form of government or leadership shortly after.

    Only upon the destruction of international free market capitalism can this in any way be possible.

    Free market capitalism has turned our nation states into trade federations and international trading hubs erasing any semblance of national identity of our once proud nations.

    [Our nationalized territories reduced to trading territories in which national citizenry have been merely reduced to gluttonous consumers.]

    Anybody who calls themselves a nationalist might want to reexamine themselves in their embracing of international free market capitalism.
    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

    National socialized collectivism must prevail over radical individualism.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    There is no point to discuss that point as long as you confuse (on purpose I may add) capital/money with the system Capitalism.

    This is not the same.
    I don't think I'm the one that is confused what capitalism is, you view capitalism in the manner leftist tried to make it out to be and that is a false way of viewing it. They tried to do this to promote their own ideas and agendas unfortunately to some their false hoods have stuck and they are not the true meaning of capitalism.

    If you can prove me wrong by facts please do so you are yet to do that.
    And again, money does not exist 'in nature'. It is an invention by man. It is stupid to have an invention by man control a market. In fact, this is retarded. Just as it is retarded to let technology control a market.
    Money is just a exchange medium nothing more it can be in the form of script, coin, rock, liquid or any other object. No logical person would deny that. It only represents a trade value and nothing more. Even fiat money represents something even though it is just debt.

    When you're not the master of your inventions anymore, you're not a master at all, but a slave.
    No one is a slave in my country unless they choose to be with a slave like mentality. To many people have proven otherwise to question this.
    And how did banks become centralised?
    Maybe you want to read up on the history of the Rothschilds, the Bank of England, and most of all, the Federal Reserve Bank?

    It was not criminal politicians who came up with the idea to centralize banks or to outsource the control over the currency to private banks with profit interests. THIS WAS DRIVEN BY BANKS AND BANKSTERS.
    Centralised banking is not a product of capitalism it is product of trying to control capitalism.
    Capitalism is a FINANCE MARKET SYSTEM. It has nothing to do with trade, and even less with demand and supply.
    Really, you could go to any real definition of capitalism and very easily be proven wrong. It very well is just a description of the natural laws of supply and demand again I ask for proof that it is not.

    You see, there is no point in discussing theories, when the reality is completely different.
    So Adam Smith was not a real person or his descriptions not real, if that is so can you provide proof that of this also?
    Japan since after WWII.
    Funny I was thinking of Japan as a nation that has prospered with capitalism and Nationalism when this thread was started. Japan of all the countries very much endorses capitalism really more so after WWII than before. Think of all those Japanese cars, electronics, and other goods they export.

    So, this is interesting. When governments should not control the market that is inside their nation, WHO PLEASE DEFINES what is LEGAL?

    The market? Capitalists? People who are emptied out of any higher value through "demand"? Laws based on "free market capitalism"?


    Oh, right, this is what we have, that's why our countries go down the drain with high speed
    Our countries go down the drain when marxist ideas of control are instituted along with marxist ideas of racial and cultural mixing. Not because of people prospering off of a free market that the folk particpate in.

    You're writing "capitalism" when you mean money. Again, this is not the same, and I find it laboring and rather pointless to discuss with you when you mix up terms on purpose.
    No I'm writing capitalism when I mean capitalism, if you find it laboring than it is because you are unable to provide proof of your own ideas of what capitalism is.

    I already explained what money is it is just a medium of exchange and capitalism is description of the laws of supply and demand. I never stated otherwise and have been very clear on that point. I have also been very clear that capitalism is not a political ideology.

    Oh great, every one's defining what's legal themselves. And America wonders why tons of drugs get smuggled in (why do they even smuggle, simply say its legal, eh), why everyone ignores borders and America's south is swarmed by Mexicans (hey everyone says himself what's legal). Christopher street days with public sex free for viewing for everyone including little kids. And even illegal immigrants can become president.
    There are many forms of laws criminal laws, laws of physics, laws of nature no one is deciding the laws of capitalism as it is just a description of actions that occur in nature. This can be explained with plant or animal as well as with markets and trade.

    I was wondering when you would get around to trying to bring up the bad that you say are from capitalism without ever mentioning the good things. I think I even predicted it some post back. None of these things you mention are products of capitalism, they are products of moral decay plain and simple.
    Freedom for everyone
    Well at least Germanics, I could care less about the other races.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Spenglerian
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    To SpearBrave:

    Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the free market; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies.
    More fundamentally, others define capitalism as a system where production is carried out to generate profit, or exchange-value, regardless of legal ownership titles.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

    National socialized collectivism must prevail over radical individualism.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Ardito's Avatar
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    It seems utterly absurd to me to argue for free market capitalism on a cultural preservation forum. What free market capitalism is, at its heart, is the commodisation of all things, the ability to exchange anything at will. This is quite literally the opposite of cultural preservation, which is surely the belief that culture should be separate from and above mere economic exchange.
    In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    oh, yes wikipedia is such a good and realiable source.[sarcasm]

    Even that explains that capitalism is about trade and laws of supply and demand. Not that it is political ideology.

    Good try though, maybe if you dig a little more and actually come up with a real source you might learn something.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

  7. #27
    Spenglerian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardito View Post
    It seems utterly absurd to me to argue for free market capitalism on a cultural preservation forum. What free market capitalism is, at its heart, is the commodisation of all things, the ability to exchange anything at will. This is quite literally the opposite of cultural preservation, which is surely the belief that culture should be separate from and above mere economic exchange.
    I'm starting to think that the abandoment of mercantilism was the worse mistake we made in western civilization.

    More and more I'm starting to think that we need nationalized socialist economies revolving around a form of economical mercantilism as national policy.

    The Austrian lawyer and scholar Philipp Wilhelm von Hornick, in his Austria Over All, If She Only Will of 1684, detailed a nine-point program of what he deemed effective national economy, which sums up the tenets of mercantilism comprehensively:[7]

    That every inch of a country's soil be utilized for agriculture, mining or manufacturing.
    That all raw materials found in a country be used in domestic manufacture, since finished goods have a higher value than raw materials.
    That a large, working population be encouraged.
    That all export of gold and silver be prohibited and all domestic money be kept in circulation.
    That all imports of foreign goods be discouraged as much as possible.
    That where certain imports are indispensable they be obtained at first hand, in exchange for other domestic goods instead of gold and silver.
    That as much as possible, imports be confined to raw materials that can be finished [in the home country].
    That opportunities be constantly sought for selling a country's surplus manufactures to foreigners, so far as necessary, for gold and silver.
    That no importation be allowed if such goods are sufficiently and suitably supplied at home.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#Influence

    Sounds like the beginning of a great coordinated and effective national economy to me.
    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

    National socialized collectivism must prevail over radical individualism.

  8. #28
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm
    The fault of the state, not the market.
    The market had nothing to do with that. And still hasnt.

    For the fault. No, it wasnt the state's fault. It was the fault of the people who give a shit about who leads them under what conditions into what abyss. That your country doesnt belong to you - the people - anymore, is the people's fault.

    And in so far you believe in "market self regulation", this failed obviously to correct this error. Because the market is the people, and the people give a shit.


    Nation, state, folk (people, markets....), government, this is all "the same". Or lets say, it should be the same. And then a government isnt an enemy, but works in the interest of the people and the economy. But when you dont care who is the government, or what these people do, then you end up with people who are your enemy. It is a direct result of the absurd idea that a market anarchy and the 'good will' of people would be enough to maintain order.

    How naive must one be to believe that a government that is comprised of enemies of the folk (literally) would enforce any form of order benefitting its enemy-folk? How naive must one be to believe that they even would work in the interests of the "entity America" and not rather for the interests of their own people (ie, more enemies of Americans)?

    And how naive must one be to believe that this is a problem one could solve with market anarchy.


    To the theory of capitalism in general:

    When an economic (financial) market 'needs' individual rights, specially those to private ownership, and that is what capitalism needs, you also need an instance that protects these property rights of both the people and companies, and also protects and enforces regulations protecting the market.

    Capitalism though, through its preference for a "free market" (unregulated) and with that the requirement to limit government regulations, also limit the government's ability to protect property rights and the legal means to enforce individual rights.

    This means that capitalism unconstructs its own base. For short term profit interests.

    Once this point is reached, the free market must become globalised, because only on the global market profit is still possible, and so the "free market" removes borders.

    Though when the government doesnt/cannot protect its nation's individual rights anymore nor its property, there is no way to maintain the nation either.

    Then governments bail out companies that lost on the anarchic 'survival of the fittest' market (they scream for help from that instance that they destroyed themselves, ironic), and governments (with their few remaining means to ignore its task to protect property and instead rob the people off of ever more property -> taxes) add to the 'naturally appearing inequality of wealth distribution' with actively redistributing all remaining individual wealth to the few that own everything (including the government).

    While the financial section, the profits and productions are almost longterm plans in companies, they also give a shit about maintaining their "government company", but still expect it to function somehow.

    Deprived of all legal means to enforce anything, the government now fails to protect either of them. The natural dead of a capitalistic nation.


    While I do see the "goodies" of capitalism, there are also bad aspects, and that is where regulations against Laissez-Faire Capitalism and the Anarchic Free Market are due. To maintain a national capitalistic economy long term, the free market cannot be free unlimited, because it endangers the integrity of the nation and the nation's economy and actually its own existence too.

    As a nationalist and someone interested in preserving my people long term, it would be rather stupid to support such a system at whose end the dead of my nation stands.

    And it has an end, an also selfmade one. Through the demand of constant growth which at a certain point becomes unsustainable, capitalism builds the financial bubble of which we saw a 'fata morgana' in 2008. No, the burst is not yet here, we are in the phase where the government redistributes the last individual wealth to the top 5 percent of private owners. Depending on the wage slave's productivity (the phase is accompanied by a lack of protection of individual rights and property of individuals) this phase may last some more years, even decades (we stupid Germanics are like the horse Boxer from Animal Farm), and the longer it lasts the more sudden its end and our death will be.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post
    So now I'm battling strawman arguments? Who said only large corporate mega stores exist? When you mean store do you actually mean a seller/distributor (Wal-Mart, Target, Harris Teeter, Amazon, etc) or an actual producer? A lot of the things I own I get from a variety of stores from a huge variety of producers. Again, how all of the sudden when it's free-market small businesses become obsolete? Nothing to back your case.



    So I can't refrain from purchasing a good from one specific store?



    The only goal free-market capitalism has is freedom of choice and trade between individuals. There is no secret or esoteric agenda, there is no conspiracy plot, there is no scheme. It's simple economics. Individuals trading. I highly doubt small business owners have non stop global expansion on their minds. I don't think Toys R Us or Black Label skateboards or even the publisher for Kurt Vonnegut books wants to dominate the world in some globalist plot.

    The laws of economics in one part of the world or country still apply to another. The same laws affected the Soviet Union as did the United States. If you take one country and erect a protective wall around them, economics goes on as usual, except now you just blocked all the individuals in that country from trading with people outside that country, and those on the outside can't get to the inside. Restrictive barriers that don't do anyone any good. If someone doesn't want art made from India they don't have to buy it. If someone doesn't want a car made from Sweden they don't have to buy it (I'm not sure what kind of racialist theories you are trying to pull, can I still drive my Volvo even though I'm not Swedish, and if I'm correct my Swedish made Volvo also has German made parts, can some Anglo-American purchase a Scandinavian made car? Will my Swedish car refuse American made coolant?).



    LOL. Yes, before Adam Smith people lived in a non-capitalist utopia where roasted birds flew into our mouths and by the work of magic all our goods came to being without modern methods of production. Once Adam Smith created, patented, and copyrighted capitalism all our past hopes and dreams went out the window. Blast!

    On a serious note Smith and Ricardo refuted mercantilism in place of a market economy, they didn't "create" anything (seriously, are you serious?). The marginal revolution came along and people like Carl Menger and his work Principles of Economics furthered the market economy. Smith believed in the labor theory of value, that value in a good is objective due to the work put in. Menger put forth that value is subjective to the individuals, and the value is =/= to the labor put into the good. Smith looked at economics from the perception of the producer, not the consumer. This was a flaw in his theory, but must be applauded in refuting mercantilism. Economic science was still developing at this point in time.

    Trade among individuals existed thousands of years before Adam Smith. People traded gold and other highly valued objects all the time. Can you explain how someone would acquire goods before Adam Smith? How would a blacksmith receive payment for the goods he produced, or how would the farmer receive payment for his crops? A transaction was made between two individuals. That transaction involved both individuals trading goods they feel were less valuable than what they were receiving, so they both had a benefit. Economics 101 (or even less, this is pretty common sense).
    So now I'm battling strawman arguments?


    Who said only large corporate mega stores exist?
    I didn't say that they are the only type of stores that exist but I merely was trying to say that their presence becomes so large to an extent that they overshadow small business owners by squeezing them out of the market altogether where one's choice of purchasing things practically becomes circulated around large mega store franchises.

    They are of course a consequence of pervasive capitalism in commercial over expansion.

    When you mean store do you actually mean a seller/distributor (Wal-Mart, Target, Harris Teeter, Amazon, etc) or an actual producer?
    What does it matter when a mega store like Walmart does all of the above?

    Again, how all of the sudden when it's free-market small businesses become obsolete? Nothing to back your case.
    Because when you have a mega store that has everything sold at a much cheaper price versus a small locally owned store that sells half of those things of a mega store at a slightly more increased price just to be able to keep their doors open to the public in comparison more and more people will opt for the giant mega store.

    The mega store is able to sell things in massive bulk at a much cheaper sale's price versus a small locally owned store that cannot.

    Of course, how do these mega stores sell products at a much cheaper sale's price?

    By cheap labor such as outsourcing their production centers to foreign countries who will then hire workers at a much more lower wage.

    [Nothing like being paid 10 dollars a day as a foreign worker in another country.]

    But wait it gets better................

    What happens if I'm a representative owner of a mega store, industry, corporation, or commercial enterprise that wants to cut their monthly expense here at home? I'll just hire some recently added foreign workers to my workforce who will do twice the work for less the amount of standardized pay that local nationalized workers will do where I will lobby with politicians with my lobbying firm to keep the global immigration gates open in order to fulfill my demand for cheap labor where I will incentivize them for their loyalty by a means of generous political donations.

    [Meanwhile everybody starts wondering why their wages are decreasing and why the costs of everything is going up but that's a topic for another thread.]

    If I have problems with anti immigration activists I'll just have my pet politician go into the glory of multiculturalism branding them as racists of which to secure this public political stance of keeping the global immigration gates open in my country I'll then make a move to invest in groups like La Raza with my corporation where people will then applaud my commercial enterprise as being the highest expression of racial cultural tolerance where as a CEO I will eventually find my face on a edition of TIME magazine as a humanistic heroin.

    Now if I'm a really big corporate enterprise where I own somthing like 35% of the national economy say somthing like a very large bank I can then really influence government into a variety of ways in that I'll have a large bargaining chip within it and if I go through a financial crisis say somthing on the lines of 2008 in the United States I can effectively put a gun to the head of the government in which I'll demand to be bailed out of which the government will then force the tax payers to come up with the sum of money to be gathered in further taxation at a later date because if the government does nothing that is 35% of the economy that is no longer there anymore threatening a situation of depressed economical like proportions where I will be deemed too big to fail as a business.

    [Of course I could only get away with this in a free market capitalist economy because in a heavily regulated socialistic planned marketed economy such a scenario or situation would never occur where if I was also a nationalistic one global immigration wouldn't be a issue either because such immigration would not be allowed to take place whereby the national worker's place within a nation would be protected without fear of having decreased wages in the process by means of outsourced jobs abroad.]

    So I can't refrain from purchasing a good from one specific store?
    You could but you would have a hard time doing so considering one already has a limited amount of choices in where they purchase things at a local level given that anymore you have a choice of one mega store over another with hardly any locally owned small businesses in between.

    The only goal free-market capitalism has is freedom of choice and trade between individuals.
    Well your freedom speaking rhetoric is pretty hilarious given the oligarchical nature of free market capitalist economies where populations are effectively ruled by a select few in power that control the means of financial capital that then restrict the trade of others.

    Do you know what it is like to be a small business right now in trying to get a loan from a bank?

    There is no secret or esoteric agenda, there is no conspiracy plot, there is no scheme. It's simple economics. Individuals trading. I highly doubt small business owners have non stop global expansion on their minds. I don't think Toys R Us or Black Label skateboards or even the publisher for Kurt Vonnegut books wants to dominate the world in some globalist plot.
    Don't be naive. Nothing is ever that simple.

    As for conspiracy the world is full of deception along with lies, deceit, and trickery.

    [Nothing is ever what it seems.]

    The world is nothing but that of conspirators trying to get the upper hand on one another. Don't talk to me about conspiracy.


    The laws of economics in one part of the world or country still apply to another. The same laws affected the Soviet Union as did the United States. If you take one country and erect a protective wall around them, economics goes on as usual, except now you just blocked all the individuals in that country from trading with people outside that country, and those on the outside can't get to the inside. Restrictive barriers that don't do anyone any good. If someone doesn't want art made from India they don't have to buy it. If someone doesn't want a car made from Sweden they don't have to buy it (I'm not sure what kind of racialist theories you are trying to pull, can I still drive my Volvo even though I'm not Swedish, and if I'm correct my Swedish made Volvo also has German made parts, can some Anglo-American purchase a Scandinavian made car? Will my Swedish car refuse American made coolant?).
    You can have a protectionist mercantile economy and still trade with other countries reasonably on the grounds of not importing what you don't need or importing more than what you produce in exporting.

    Certainly when you have a economy like the United States where somthing like 65% of it's economy is built upon consumption I think is somthing that is doomed to disaster in that no country should import more than what it exports where a nation consumes more than what it produces somthing of which we find in unregulated free market capitalist economies.

    Will my Swedish car refuse American made coolant?).
    Such a problem wouldn't exist in a nationalized economy.

    That example is a consequence of international trading to the extremes.

    Why not create the coolant and vehicle in your own nation where you know both are compatible with each other?

    LOL. Yes, before Adam Smith people lived in a non-capitalist utopia where roasted birds flew into our mouths and by the work of magic all our goods came to being without modern methods of production. Once Adam Smith created, patented, and copyrighted capitalism all our past hopes and dreams went out the window. Blast!
    Actually Mr. Fancy Pants we had a mercantilist economical structure before the rise of economical capitalism which safe guarded nation states with nationalist themes of planned economies coordinated at a state level.


    On a serious note Smith and Ricardo refuted mercantilism in place of a market economy, they didn't "create" anything (seriously, are you serious?). The marginal revolution came along and people like Carl Menger and his work Principles of Economics furthered the market economy. Smith believed in the labor theory of value, that value in a good is objective due to the work put in. Menger put forth that value is subjective to the individuals, and the value is =/= to the labor put into the good. Smith looked at economics from the perception of the producer, not the consumer. This was a flaw in his theory, but must be applauded in refuting mercantilism. Economic science was still developing at this point in time.
    Well that's all very wonderful but I disagree with most capitalist economical interpretations where I'm more for a planned socialized economy somthing of which we can debate if you wish.


    Trade among individuals existed thousands of years before Adam Smith. People traded gold and other highly valued objects all the time. Can you explain how someone would acquire goods before Adam Smith? How would a blacksmith receive payment for the goods he produced, or how would the farmer receive payment for his crops? A transaction was made between two individuals. That transaction involved both individuals trading goods they feel were less valuable than what they were receiving, so they both had a benefit. Economics 101 (or even less, this is pretty common sense).
    Adam Smith was the originator of the economical market system and ideology of capitalism although there were specific merchants that expirimented with similar ideas at the end of the medieval period if one wanted to get technical about history.

    Beyond all of that capitalism is to be found nowhere else.

    Now I know you and SpearBrave got this whole thing that capitalism is more than that where it is a way of life where you guys try to go into detail of some sort of esoteric meaning of capitalism beyond it being a type of market economy in some sort of naturalistic explanation of it being related to nature and the world around us by decreeing capitalism to have always existed but until you can show me a group of chimpanzees in a jungle discussing the finer details of moving capital by a expanding free market system by reading out of a Adam Smith piece of writing or quoting a verse about unregulated markets from Alan Greenspan I'm just going to flat out doubt everything you two are saying on the subject by means of rationalization.
    National Socialism is the only salvation for Germanics and Europids everywhere. Capitalism, libertarianism, and communism is the enemy.

    National socialized collectivism must prevail over radical individualism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    The market had nothing to do with that. And still hasnt.

    For the fault. No, it wasnt the state's fault. It was the fault of the people who give a shit about who leads them under what conditions into what abyss. That your country doesnt belong to you - the people - anymore, is the people's fault.

    And in so far you believe in "market self regulation", this failed obviously to correct this error. Because the market is the people, and the people give a shit.
    This was outside the market, this was state intervention. They made it law, they intervened, regulated, and manipulated, and decide their actions legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Nation, state, folk (people, markets....), government, this is all "the same". Or lets say, it should be the same. And then a government isnt an enemy, but works in the interest of the people and the economy. But when you dont care who is the government, or what these people do, then you end up with people who are your enemy. It is a direct result of the absurd idea that a market anarchy and the 'good will' of people would be enough to maintain order.

    How naive must one be to believe that a government that is comprised of enemies of the folk (literally) would enforce any form of order benefitting its enemy-folk? How naive must one be to believe that they even would work in the interests of the "entity America" and not rather for the interests of their own people (ie, more enemies of Americans)?

    And how naive must one be to believe that this is a problem one could solve with market anarchy.
    Do you not realize your own contradiction? You specifically discuss a government working against it's own people, yet at the end say it's naive that people believe these problems could be solved by the market. Is your solution more government? Do you realize that it would be the same government regardless, no matter who's elected? Our government seldom works in our own interest. It's in our history (I don't want to step out of bounds, but take the Civil War for example, the government was really working in the interest of the people, right?).

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    To the theory of capitalism in general:

    When an economic (financial) market 'needs' individual rights, specially those to private ownership, and that is what capitalism needs, you also need an instance that protects these property rights of both the people and companies, and also protects and enforces regulations protecting the market.

    Capitalism though, through its preference for a "free market" (unregulated) and with that the requirement to limit government regulations, also limit the government's ability to protect property rights and the legal means to enforce individual rights.
    Wrong. You won't find a single free-market supporter who's against property rights. Private property is the foundation of capitalism. The greatest threat to private property and property rights is the state. Property rights must be upheld. This is a staple of libertarianism. The government must be regulated to that of the "night watchman". The government's sole purpose is to protect people and property (people being their own property), and nothing else. The government can stay completely out of the market and it will prosper. When individuals rights are violated, there must be justice. (I don't want to step out of topic, again, but in libertarian legal theory the courts, judges, and police would also be on the market competing to bring the best service [justice and protection] in the most efficient means. The government does not have this incentive, as it's not a for-profit business in the technical sense. They will get paid [taxes] regardless of how good the service is).

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    This means that capitalism unconstructs its own base. For short term profit interests.

    Once this point is reached, the free market must become globalised, because only on the global market profit is still possible, and so the "free market" removes borders.

    Though when the government doesnt/cannot protect its nation's individual rights anymore nor its property, there is no way to maintain the nation either.
    This is not grounded in anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Then governments bail out companies that lost on the anarchic 'survival of the fittest' market (they scream for help from that instance that they destroyed themselves, ironic), and governments (with their few remaining means to ignore its task to protect property and instead rob the people off of ever more property -> taxes) add to the 'naturally appearing inequality of wealth distribution' with actively redistributing all remaining individual wealth to the few that own everything (including the government).
    Bail outs went to corporations who lobby Congress on their behalf. The banks are bailed out by the Fed (a problem with central banking). They didn't lose in a battle of survival of the fittest, the banks lost due to bad business decisions, and they know they would have bailed out regardless. It's the Fed's duty to do so. The plan was already in place, so to speak. The government was their pre-bought safety net. This is beyond free-market principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    While the financial section, the profits and productions are almost longterm plans in companies, they also give a shit about maintaining their "government company", but still expect it to function somehow.

    Deprived of all legal means to enforce anything, the government now fails to protect either of them. The natural dead of a capitalistic nation.

    While I do see the "goodies" of capitalism, there are also bad aspects, and that is where regulations against Laissez-Faire Capitalism and the Anarchic Free Market are due. To maintain a national capitalistic economy long term, the free market cannot be free unlimited, because it endangers the integrity of the nation and the nation's economy and actually its own existence too.

    As a nationalist and someone interested in preserving my people long term, it would be rather stupid to support such a system at whose end the dead of my nation stands.
    Sorry, economics knows no creed, nation, sex, or people. It's a neutral, value-free science. Whether you are a nationalist or not, the laws of economics will not change. Remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And it has an end, an also selfmade one. Through the demand of constant growth which at a certain point becomes unsustainable, capitalism builds the financial bubble of which we saw a 'fata morgana' in 2008. No, the burst is not yet here, we are in the phase where the government redistributes the last individual wealth to the top 5 percent of private owners. Depending on the wage slave's productivity (the phase is accompanied by a lack of protection of individual rights and property of individuals) this phase may last some more years, even decades (we stupid Germanics are like the horse Boxer from Animal Farm), and the longer it lasts the more sudden its end and our death will be.
    The bubble was due to over lending of loans on artificially low interest rates with the increase in the money supply. We are past the bust and feeling the effects now, which is inflation and high unemployment.

    In Keynesian economics they believe they can artificially continue a boom by lending and inflation, but this only creates a bigger bubble, and bigger bust. They believe they can fix the problem before it goes into full collapse. The Austrian side of economics believes that the market will self regulate, and remove waste, by reallocating resources in employment in more productive areas at the time. Doing so by not printing more money, and letting interest rates fluctuate to the market.

    I'm not too fond of the "stupid Germanics" statement. Whether you are referring to yourself or everyone, unlike whatever intention you have, I'm well aware of what's going on, and I'm not naive, nor stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    I didn't say that they are the only type of stores that exist but I merely was trying to say that their presence becomes so large to an extent that they overshadow small business owners by squeezing them out of the market altogether where one's choice of purchasing things practically becomes circulated around large mega store franchises.

    They are of course a consequence of pervasive capitalism in commercial over expansion.

    Because when you have a mega store that has everything sold at a much cheaper price versus a small locally owned store that sells half of those things of a mega store at a slightly more increased price just to be able to keep their doors open to the public in comparison more and more people will opt for the giant mega store.

    The mega store is able to sell things in massive bulk at a much cheaper sale's price versus a small locally owned store that cannot.
    Yet, small businesses are still popping up, and people still like going to large chain stores. You act like it's a bad thing when people can get the same product for cheaper because the methods of production and business have advanced to serve a great yield at a cheaper price. God forbid advancements!

    Yet, you can't get everything at Wal-Mart or Target. Plenty of small businesses come about to meet people's needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Of course, how do these mega stores sell products at a much cheaper sale's price?

    By cheap labor such as outsourcing their production centers to foreign countries who will then hire workers at a much more lower wage.
    Yes, because Wal-Mart has outsourced all it's workers, and brought in on ships natives of Niger, Panama, and Guam to work in all it's stores, and their production (I didn't know they actually produced anything) is done by children in India.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    [Nothing like being paid 10 dollars a day as a foreign worker in another country.]
    Foreigners get paid 10 dollars a day? Is that amount accurate, and does this amount reflect US dollars here, and is that a wage slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    But wait it gets better................

    What happens if I'm a representative owner of a mega store, industry, corporation, or commercial enterprise that wants to cut their monthly expense here at home? I'll just hire some recently added foreign workers to my workforce who will do twice the work for less the amount of standardized pay that local nationalized workers will do where I will lobby with politicians with my lobbying firm to keep the global immigration gates open in order to fulfill my demand for cheap labor where I will incentivize them for their loyalty by a means of generous political donations.
    Yep, sounds like a problem with the government not the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    [Meanwhile everybody starts wondering why their wages are decreasing and why the costs of everything is going up but that's a topic for another thread.]
    Inflation perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    If I have problems with anti immigration activists I'll just have my pet politician go into the glory of multiculturalism branding them as racists of which to secure this public political stance of keeping the global immigration gates open in my country I'll then make a move to invest in groups like La Raza with my corporation where people will then applaud my commercial enterprise as being the highest expression of racial cultural tolerance where as a CEO I will eventually find my face on a edition of TIME magazine as a humanistic heroin.

    Now if I'm a really big corporate enterprise where I own somthing like 35% of the national economy say somthing like a very large bank I can then really influence government into a variety of ways in that I'll have a large bargaining chip within it and if I go through a financial crisis say somthing on the lines of 2008 in the United States I can effectively put a gun to the head of the government in which I'll demand to be bailed out of which the government will then force the tax payers to come up with the sum of money to be gathered in further taxation at a later date because if the government does nothing that is 35% of the economy that is no longer there anymore threatening a situation of depressed economical like proportions where I will be deemed too big to fail as a business.

    [Of course I could only get away with this in a free market capitalist economy because in a heavily regulated socialistic planned marketed economy such a scenario or situation would never occur where if I was also a nationalistic one global immigration wouldn't be a issue either because such immigration would not be allowed to take place whereby the national worker's place within a nation would be protected without fear of having decreased wages in the process by means of outsourced jobs abroad.]
    Yeah, it was the market that bailed out all those corporations, right? It was the market that created a corporate safety net, right? Socialism would never fail and lead to poverty and corruption, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    You could but you would have a hard time doing so considering one already has a limited amount of choices in where they purchase things at a local level given that anymore you have a choice of one mega store over another with hardly any locally owned small businesses in between.
    I see thousands of locally owned businesses in my area.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Well your freedom speaking rhetoric is pretty hilarious given the oligarchical nature of free market capitalist economies where populations are effectively ruled by a select few in power that control the means of financial capital that then restrict the trade of others.

    Do you know what it is like to be a small business right now in trying to get a loan from a bank?
    No, with your knowledge on banks (you must be an assistant manager at Wachovia with your intellect) enlighten me on the process for a small business loan.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Don't be naive. Nothing is ever that simple.

    As for conspiracy the world is full of deception along with lies, deceit, and trickery.

    [Nothing is ever what it seems.]

    The world is nothing but that of conspirators trying to get the upper hand on one another. Don't talk to me about conspiracy.
    Yeah, businesses doing things means conspiracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    You can have a protectionist mercantile economy and still trade with other countries reasonably on the grounds of not importing what you don't need or importing more than what you produce in exporting.

    Certainly when you have a economy like the United States where somthing like 65% of it's economy is built upon consumption I think is somthing that is doomed to disaster in that no country should import more than what it exports where a nation consumes more than what it produces somthing of which we find in unregulated free market capitalist economies.
    Ah, the leftist rhetoric was tricky in this. "65% of it's economy is built on consumption" - Statements like these must be pointed out. Every individual is a consumer and a producer. We all have a part in economics There's no percentage of more over the other. It's an illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Such a problem wouldn't exist in a nationalized economy.

    That example is a consequence of international trading to the extremes.

    Why not create the coolant and vehicle in your own nation where you know both are compatible with each other?
    Maybe because I want a god damn Swedish made Volvo with French and German parts, and they don't make Volvo's in the United States. Do I need permission from you for what I drive?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Actually Mr. Fancy Pants we had a mercantilist economical structure before the rise of economical capitalism which safe guarded nation states with nationalist themes of planned economies coordinated at a state level.
    I'm not sure you understand sarcasm, and I don't remember reading life being too productive and lovely for us peasants under mercantilism.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaricLachlan View Post
    Well that's all very wonderful but I disagree with most capitalist economical interpretations where I'm more for a planned socialized economy somthing of which we can debate if you wish.
    I have debated this, I'm actually debating it right now, I even made a thread about capitalism and offered my position over how it's more productive over a planned economy. Seriously, it's like amateur night in Dixie on the Skadi forum. Can someone bring forth some real competition?
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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