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Thread: Free Market Capitalism Incompatible With Nationalism

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    A lot of good points here.

    Capitalism is certainly old and natural but so is government regulation.

    What is Alarich wanting here though? Essentially a non-competitive world where small business is protected from Wal-Mart? Where wages are kept high and people don't need to compete so much? This creates less efficiency it also goes against his other threads where he supports anarchy and now he's supporting a strong central government.

    The problem is people should not look for the government to solve their problems. If you don't like wal-mart don't shop there. Shop at the local mom and pop store. you will pay higher prices, but that's what you want. It is a leftist idea to force your views on everyone else "make them all pay higher prices because I want the store protected".

    We don't live in an unrestrained free market. There have always been tariffs and such. Anti-monopoly laws exist. Labor laws and so forth. Pure free market capitalism would be destructive to a nation, no serious or educated person doubts this.

    I agree with the general view that modern Globalist Capitalism is harmful to nationalism but that's sort of apparent right from the name right? Let's not confuse 'Capitalism' as ONLY meaning the type of capitalism we have today in the U.S. or West Europe. No.

    Obviously a nationalist state would have certain laws and structure that would be more beneficial to the quality of the community rather than to "profit". So I think that was a very good and insightful point. I have taken note of some of the arguments here they are very useful.

    If we are looking at a National Socialist type state we must understand the big differance between a folkish socialist state and a modern "progressive" socialist state.

    In the folkish state wages are kept high. But retards, criminals etc. are removed from the labor pool, sterilized and so on. In leftist socialism wages are kept high, welfare freely dolled out etc. except the increasingly stupid and criminal population is left unchecked and the parasites grow fat from the "socialism".

    At any rate I think the solutions to our problems starts more on a grass roots level organizing rather than looking to the government. We should be able to form our own communities which weed out parasites and help each other out. One person could buy a business and pay the others a high wage etc. In that way he can show his community responsibility rather than looking to unrestrained greed. It all starts in the ideas of the people- the folk- not in governance. We need to see that there is more to the life and prosperity of a community than just sheckels and gold. The folk element is very important to national prosperity as well as the eternal ideal values and morals the people possess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genius View Post
    Shop at the local mom and pop store. you will pay higher prices, but that's what you want.
    This is actually because of too many regulations, small businesses can't spare resources which only concern themselves with keeping up with regulations, large ones can.

    Quote Originally Posted by genius View Post
    It is a leftist idea to force your views on everyone else "make them all pay higher prices because I want the store protected".
    Well, the idea behind this topic is that "free movement of capital" (including humans) is paramount to Capitalistic theory. Today it also means that Americans can
    own land in Germany, which shouldn't be possible for any foreigner.

    Quote Originally Posted by genius View Post
    At any rate I think the solutions to our problems starts more on a grass roots level organizing rather than looking to the government.
    The whole idea of all this is to replace the government, it seems paradoxically to even think one could turn to the government for help.

    Quote Originally Posted by genius View Post
    We should be able to form our own communities which weed out parasites and help each other out. One person could buy a business and pay the others a high wage etc.
    Yes, this is a good plan.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Never said money grows on trees and money/currency is just a form of exchange medium.
    You said capitalism exists in nature. It obviously does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Interest on loans existed prior to this as well, the Knights Templar had this during the middle ages. Some say they even invented international banking.
    Yeah, and the same criminals still run the banks today.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Capitalism derives from the use of capital and capital is just a form of exchange medium. That medium could be anything land, water, food, etc..
    Capitalism is word used to explain the laws or supply and demand. I already explained how these things occur in nature.
    Yes, you did, but your explanation is wrong.

    Capitalism has nothing to do with "goods" or "trade of goods", even only secondary with money as the 'innocent' exchange good.

    Capitalism is a finance market system, where money is traded, where money generates more money, or rather claims to do so by increasing the book money unlimited while having absolutely no more real worth backing it up, where distribution of money only follows the profit promise, where bets are placed against currencies to generate profit. The driving force of capitalism is "profit" at any prize.

    In so far it would even be correct to state that capitalism is not a political theory. Because indeed it is a anti-political theory, it aims to destroy any sound limits and necessary regulations, though in practice this means by overtaking the political control itself (ie manipulation of politicians to support the finance market's goals; btw, ever wondered why it is called "finance market"? Because it is an own market!).


    Since the finance market's driving force is profit, and capitalism forms the policies that enable maximum profits, and any nationalism (pro the interests of a nation) would limit this profit, capitalism must by necessity be anti-nationalistic, anti-souvereignity of nations, anti-independence and anti-autarchic, because any even slight approach in this direction potentially limits profit.

    Capitalism needs an internationally inter-dependent and globalised environment, precisely because it exists 'above' the economy. It is the instance that exercises control over the economy and drives it to generate more profit (not goods, wealth or worths). Instead of national laws. Instead of common sense or honour. Instead of the interests of a nation to maintain its homogenous society. Instead of any of the interests or requirements of this nation directing the economy. Only "profit" for its own sake.


    We cannot sell our nations to foreign investors and expect them to be still 'ours' or to work in our interests, and even less if we as a folk want to survive. There must be limits to capitalism as well as private ownership. This is not about nationalising the bakery at the street corner or deny people (natives!) to own houses or land. Control, limits and regulation are necessary though when it comes to core technologies (such as electricity supply), foreign ownership of businesses or banks. Banks cannot be private, and even less a currency. That is an absurd idea actually.

    Where the indeed political idea of a "Free Market" comes back into play, because this is the vehicle on which capitalism can sell its finance-magical tricks as "economical concept".

    But "Free Market" does not mean unregulated trade inside an economy of a nation, but "Free" does indeed mean without rules and limits. EVERYTHING can be traded with everyone, from core technologies to governments, from "human resources" (did anyone say 'individual freedom'? forget about it when you're an investment which has to generate profit!) to the nation itself. And when your nation is an investment of foreign investors which has to generate profit, how much do you think these foreign investors care for the interests of your folk? They will continue to dumb the scum of the earth into your suburbs to have you work for a dollar a day (hey, you wanted competition) as soon as they managed to generate so much "demand" for jobs that people sell their very soul for one. The joys of "Free Market Capitalism".


    As a nationalist, this is not in my interest. As a nationalist, and for a moment fantasising about what I'd do if I were in a position to do that, I would nationalise the banks, issue my own un-indebted currency and would regulate the economical environment in a way that enables businesses to thrive. Some businesses that are central to the economy, such as electricity and other energy, communication systems, banks do not need 'market competition', and they also do not need to generate profit (it's nice when that happens, but actually it is enough when they cover the expences). Essentially, they are made servants of the nation and the economy in order to generate benefit for the nation.

    When I want capital to generate benefit for my nation, for my people, for my economy, it is most important to control and direct the money/profit back into the economy and dont allow it to be taken out. So there will be regulations limiting the possibilities to export money, ie to invest in foreign nations or have foreign investors invest in my nation and instead encourage re-investment in nation-internal businesses.

    Competition is to a certain degree a nice thing, but there are a lot of businesses that would do better when they were not competitors, but would work together for a common goal. Market segments often overlap, different business types share common interests. In "Free Market Capitalism" though they are competitors, and the only common goal they share is the will to destroy each other. Makes no sense to me, because when everyone is the enemy of everyone I have war in my nation and a nation/economy in war does not thrive.

    When you are of the opinion that everything has its place and time and that also counts for competition, you obviously dont want "rampant competition", but instead would encourage businesses to form (AAATTENTION: EEEEVIL BUZZZZ WORD) cartells. They share common business interests, even can depend on each other, so why the Hel should they be competitors???

    And when the nation controls the money flow and regulates the frame in which the economy can thrive, you dont even need to control each and every business, since the "control" happens by the cartell, simply by ensuring that every member does work for their common goal. They can concentrate on their business, instead of worrying that a corporate raider buys them up and dumbs them into the trash bin.

    Competition should exist between products, in terms of quality, functionality and so on. In "Free Market Capitalism" competition is 'cheaper cheaper cheaper', something of which I know you're also against. Quality though simply is no competing factor in Free Market Capitalism. Profit is. ONLY.


    As a nationalist, I dont have interest to serve the interests of profit and capitalism. I have interest that both capital and profit benefit my nation. Therefore it is nonsense to leave that unregulated, since its own interests are diametrically opposed to the interests of a nation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    You said capitalism exists in nature. It obviously does not.
    I already have proven that it is a natural action. You need to prove that it is a man created action the burden of proof is yours to provide. Again real sources only with traceable footnotes.
    Yeah, and the same criminals still run the banks today.
    Not all banks are criminal there are still private banks, I bank at one I know. There is nothing wrong with banking on a small and private level. It is when they become centralized is where the problems exist.
    Yes, you did, but your explanation is wrong.
    Prove that capitalism does not exist in nature, I have proven it does. It really is just basic trading and laws of supply and demand.
    Capitalism has nothing to do with "goods" or "trade of goods", even only secondary with money as the 'innocent' exchange good.
    Not according to Adam Smith the man who first described capitalism.


    When I want capital to generate benefit for my nation, for my people, for my economy, it is most important to control and direct the money/profit back into the economy and dont allow it to be taken out. So there will be regulations limiting the possibilities to export money, ie to invest in foreign nations or have foreign investors invest in my nation and instead encourage re-investment
    Can you name one modern country where this has worked for a extended period of time? More than even one generation? Governments can and should be separate from controlling the exchange of legal goods.

    Capitalism allows people to grow and prosper. When people grow and prosper they become proud of themselves and proud of their folk and nation. When you restrict people that is when they lose that pride in themselves and their folk/nation.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Do I have to send half the people here a copy of Economics in One Lesson?

    Capitalism: A Discussion Piece

    Economics is a science. It's the science and study of human action. Human's have been interacting and trading before the usage of "capitalism". Even in the most primitive societies/tribes economics had it's place. Division of labor, trade, property, and saving. The foundations for capitalism haven't changed from even the most basic concepts societies use to grow and function. From the most primitive to the most advanced civilizations the same laws of economics apply to both.

    Capitalism is not an ideology, it's the preferred position of economics. For those who know economics, they acknowledge that capitalism is the most productive, as it's in it's natural free state, compared to restrictions based upon outside intervention. Whatever political philosophy you have, that doesn't change the fact of two people trading goods using a medium of exchange will take place somewhere in the world.

    People want to go on and on about nationalism or socialism and say capitalism is in the wrong. Well, can someone explain capitalism in only economic terms? Most of the opponents here have not. They probably couldn't explain the things they support. How would the economics of individuals differ in a country with a free-market compared to one of that of a nationalist? Are the markets even different? Does the nationalist country and/or government restrict trade in some areas?

    This topic becomes tiresome and goes in circles, mainly since the counter-arguments are weird and bizarre.
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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    The problem isn't with capital, it's with usury. That is why the biblical era had a debt jubilee every fifty years give or take.

    The etymological root word of capital is cattle. Both concepts are symbolized by the first letter in the Eldar Futhark, wealth is derived by how many 'head' of cattle ancients drovers used to drive from pasture to market. Real capital can only be expanded through natural means, coupled with skill, patience and perserverance. Failure to expand your capital base in ancient times meant one went hungry or became desitute as they 'ate' through their stock. There is a reason why Fehu is at the start of the Futhark, money is the most important gnostic concept to man, all other words are just helper words.

    These concepts can be referenced here:

    http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/cap...etymology.html

    and here:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/30705805/Fren...ve_Investments

    I don't think Adam Smith much talked about 'capitalism'. I think he took some french concepts like 'cheptel', laissez-faire and 'entrepeneur' and expanded on them to form not neccessarily a political-economic system, but merely the reality we find ourselves in. Smith's construction wasn't merely a denial of mercantilism, it was more an identification of an 'invisible hand', a force, an impetus that seemed to way lay man's best laid economic plans. Basically, there is at any and all times a 'free-market' and all attempts to subvert simply shift the consequences of those decisions to a later date. Collectively this would be called 'mercantilism'.

    Fast forward to the modern era and the byzantine complexity of today's economics go along way to cloud the purist's defintions. Firstly, Central Banks are anathema to the definition of free-market capitalism. The fifth plank of the communist manifesto calls for the establishment of central banks and the collectivization of credit. This can be referenced here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

    Secondly, and this is an important point, capital is not credit. Capital is and always has been the tangible means of production. Fehu has never been thought to be an abstraction such as imaginary cows to be paid at a later date. That is an invention of usury, and the enablement of usury is a violation of the laws of nature. One must remember why usurers occupy the seventh circle of Dante's hell.

    The etymological root of violation is something to consider when referencing the inner ring of the seventh circle:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)



    What does this boil down to???

    On one side you have the high priests of economy, the scientists of usury, temples masquerading as central banks full of moneychangers, at the very wellspring of credit creation and state control. Wizards of the intangible, peddling fraudulent and unknown wares, printing money without numeraire.

    Central bank notes are feudal contracts with third party liability (debt). Specie is the exact opposite, allodial title is inherent in the exchange/barter of tangible goods between 'sovereign' parties. Our money did not just lose it's numeraire, it also lost us our ability to transfer allodial title. One must ask themselves not nationalism vs. capitalism, one must ask themselves feudalism vs. allodialism. Understanding the etymology of the argument clears the fog from the field on which the clash of ideas takes place.

    Very important and ancient concepts to consider:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odelsrett

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_money_(policy)

    http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion...numeraire.html

  7. #17
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    I already have proven that it is a natural action. You need to prove that it is a man created action the burden of proof is yours to provide. Again real sources only with traceable footnotes.
    There is no point to discuss that point as long as you confuse (on purpose I may add) capital/money with the system Capitalism.

    This is not the same.

    And again, money does not exist 'in nature'. It is an invention by man. It is stupid to have an invention by man control a market. In fact, this is retarded. Just as it is retarded to let technology control a market.

    When you're not the master of your inventions anymore, you're not a master at all, but a slave.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Not all banks are criminal there are still private banks, I bank at one I know. There is nothing wrong with banking on a small and private level. It is when they become centralized is where the problems exist.
    And how did banks become centralised?
    Maybe you want to read up on the history of the Rothschilds, the Bank of England, and most of all, the Federal Reserve Bank?

    It was not criminal politicians who came up with the idea to centralize banks or to outsource the control over the currency to private banks with profit interests. THIS WAS DRIVEN BY BANKS AND BANKSTERS.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Prove that capitalism does not exist in nature, I have proven it does. It really is just basic trading and laws of supply and demand.
    Capitalism is a FINANCE MARKET SYSTEM. It has nothing to do with trade, and even less with demand and supply.



    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Not according to Adam Smith the man who first described capitalism.

    You see, there is no point in discussing theories, when the reality is completely different.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Can you name one modern country where this has worked for a extended period of time? More than even one generation?
    Japan since after WWII.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Governments can and should be separate from controlling the exchange of legal goods.
    So, this is interesting. When governments should not control the market that is inside their nation, WHO PLEASE DEFINES what is LEGAL?

    The market? Capitalists? People who are emptied out of any higher value through "demand"? Laws based on "free market capitalism"?


    Oh, right, this is what we have, that's why our countries go down the drain with high speed




    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave
    Capitalism allows people to grow and prosper. When people grow and prosper they become proud of themselves and proud of their folk and nation. When you restrict people that is when they lose that pride in themselves and their folk/nation.
    You're writing "capitalism" when you mean money. Again, this is not the same, and I find it laboring and rather pointless to discuss with you when you mix up terms on purpose.
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    Senior Member Paradigm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    There is no point to discuss that point as long as you confuse (on purpose I may add) capital/money with the system Capitalism.

    This is not the same.

    And again, money does not exist 'in nature'. It is an invention by man. It is stupid to have an invention by man control a market. In fact, this is retarded. Just as it is retarded to let technology control a market.
    Money is a medium of exchange. Exchanges don't take place in nature? SpearBrave makes no confusion, it's you who is trying to purposefully break down and confuse the argument at hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And how did banks become centralised?
    The Government. How else would a bank get special privileges by law to have a monopoly over the supply of money?

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Maybe you want to read up on the history of the Rothschilds, the Bank of England, and most of all, the Federal Reserve Bank?
    Yes, criminals who used the state to get what they wanted, not free-market capitalist. Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    It was not criminal politicians who came up with the idea to centralize banks or to outsource the control over the currency to private banks with profit interests. THIS WAS DRIVEN BY BANKS AND BANKSTERS.
    It was driven by a handful of powerful people who happened to be involved with banks, there's a difference in saying that, and it was blatantly driven by just banks and banksters.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Capitalism is a FINANCE MARKET SYSTEM. It has nothing to do with trade, and even less with demand and supply.
    This is rather hilarious. The foundation of capitalism is property, trade, division of labor, and saving. Demand and supply goes right along with that. Without any of the four it's not capitalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    So, this is interesting. When governments should not control the market that is inside their nation, WHO PLEASE DEFINES what is LEGAL?
    Governments can't control, they can only distort and manipulate. The government and our country is trying to control the market, and unemployment and inflation is what we get with a dying dollar. I don't know what the economy is like in your country, but we experience first hand what happens when a government wants to intervene in the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    The market? Capitalists? People who are emptied out of any higher value through "demand"? Laws based on "free market capitalism"?
    The market and capitalist is made up of individuals, individuals deciding what's legal for themselves sounds good to me!


    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    You're writing "capitalism" when you mean money. Again, this is not the same, and I find it laboring and rather pointless to discuss with you when you mix up terms on purpose.
    You're the one who's constantly mixing up terms even when you take a statement in context. You have bizarre definitions of capitalism and money that a college economics professor would stare blankly into your soul if you decided to utter such statements in his classroom.
    "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm
    The Government. How else would a bank get special privileges by law to have a monopoly over the supply of money?
    Through indebting the state and blackmailing the government into signing bills like the Federal Reserve Act. For example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paradigm
    The market and capitalist is made up of individuals, individuals deciding what's legal for themselves sounds good to me!
    Oh great, everyone's defining what's legal themselves. And America wonders why tons of drugs get smuggled in (why do they even smuggle, simply say its legal, eh), why everyone ignores borders and America's south is swarmed by Mexicans (hey everyone says himself what's legal). Christopher street days with public sex free for viewing for everyone including little kids. And even illegal immigrants can become president.

    Freedom for everyone
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    The whole idea of all this is to replace the government, it seems paradoxically to even think one could turn to the government for help.

    I mean replacing one government with a new one. I don't think any government is really the answer. We simply need to consider that all governments have their limitations and mainly look to solving our problems ourselves rather than the solutions being in who governs us or how.

    I haven't noticed regulation being that big of a problem with local stores. They seem to go out of business because of price competition. Mainly big retailers like wal-mart can buy in bulk and negotiate deals that smaller retailers cannot. Other than that a business hires a tax company to do their taxes and can't rip off their customers, there's not a lot of regulation. The areas where there's a lot of regulation are only industries like serving alcohol, strip clubs etc. There's also regulation in the quality of food or medicine, but this applies on the industrial level rather than commercial level.

    If we look at industrial farms replacing smaller farms I can agree with that to a large degree. But even here this has a lot to do with economy of scale. But here it also is because of all the government handouts which most small farmers don't understand how to get. So the "subsidies" combined with regulation are a problem. Yet without these subsidies we wouldn't be growing any of our food and instead would import it from Africa or some low wage area. So its a two edged sword.

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