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Thread: What Race Were the Greeks and Romans?

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    Post Ancient Romans' and Ancient Greeks' Racial Stock

    Originally posted by MediterraneanSupremacy
    Historically speaking, the Greeks (the inventors of Europa) and the Romans have been the most intellectually advanced of any other civilization in Europe. This is noted in their empires, global conquests, architecture, agriculture, mathematics, linguistics and spreading of a new, more civilized European culture. Mediterranean supremacy is also well-noted in the Egyptian culture.
    What about the Industrial Revolution, which was almost solely created by the people of Great Britain? Neither the Greeks or Romans of the Classical period were predominantly Mediterranean in racial type.

    When compared to the Jew of the ancient world, the Aryans were by far advanced and superior, as Israel was sacked repeatedly by the Romans and finally crushed in 70 A.D. by General Titus.
    Titus' family were not Mediterranean either, they were blond.

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    Ebusitanus
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    Originally posted by Heimdall
    Neither the Greeks or Romans of the Classical period were predominantly Mediterranean in racial type.
    Didn´t we have this before?...It seems that an orderly exchange of ideas doesn´t suite you. You were proven wrong then and we can play this game here too...of course, if you so allow it.

    Titus' family were not Mediterranean either, they were blond.
    Could you give me a source for that?
    Last edited by Ebusitanus; Saturday, July 27th, 2002 at 08:26 PM.

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    Post Moderator job

    The posts above were taken from the "What is a Jew?" thread because they were not related to the thread title. Discuss the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks Racial Stock here.

    I personally believe that the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks were Mediterrenean Aryans, and I find it hard to believe anything different although I am willing to evaluate all possibilities, although I currently have no time for research myself to back up my own beliefs which are derived from what the broad masses conceive as to what was the Racial Stock of the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks.

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    The Greeks, Spanish, and Italians are darker because they bred more with Old Europeans (Mediterranians) than the Northern Europeans who were further to the North who also encountered them and bred with them to an extent, not because of Turkish and Moor invasions. They are pretty much the same as they have always been. The Turks who moved into Anatolia, which was populated by whites since the time of the Indo European Hittites, bred heavily with them making the Turks borderline if not white. Compare an Anatolian Turk to a Turk from East Turkmenistan and you will see my point. The Syrians also tend to be alot paler than other semites again because the area used to be populated with Hittites and Hurrians. This is pretty much reflected in the History and Geography of Human Genes as well along with linguistic studies. If anything you can say Northern Europeans are more Indo European than Southern Europeans but that did not prevent the Rise of either Classical Greece or the Roman Empire. There is simply a white race which is a mixture of Old and Indo Europeans, value it.

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    From Scultures and archeoligical evidence, we know that the Romans and Greeks were much like the modern Germans are Subracially today.Romans in particular were mainly Alpine,Nordic and Meditterean in smaller strains.
    The Greeks were similar particalurary the Spartans had the strongest Nordic element and the Athenians were more medditerean in subracial type. Aristocle was primarily Alpine in subracial type, the main point being that they all Aryan peoples, not negroid like some "academic" are trying to claim!
    Servus,

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    Ebusitanus
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    Actually Mr. Seppl, archeology and human remains recovery plus massive wall paintings plus sculptural evidence suggest just the opposite. While Nordics were certainly present in Mediterranean cultures throughout history including the most highest positions much like today, to try to sell that Mediterraneans were some form of minor presence in such lands and in leadership roles is pretty delusional and void of any real evidence beyond pan-germanistic currents of the late XIX century to mid XX century.
    It escapes me the funny contradiction of trying to explain how all those Nordic civilization bringers came from the north, blessing with their pressence the atavic southern Meds and Alpines while they never created anything worthwhile on their own from the areas were they left in the first place and where they kept being numerically superior and predominant well into the middle ages.

    Anything, I guess is better, than to possibly accept that other Aryan nations like Meds, Slavs or Alpines might have contributed something to Aryan greatness on their own. Every great civilization, following this Nordic Nirvana dreamland, has his very existance to owe to some Nordic elites, whitout whom they would have stayed in the stone age.

    Whatever rocks your boat Mr. Seppl...I love Nordics and Nordic contribution to Aryan history...Sadly, those of your ilk, have little progressed from the 30´when every nation in Europe was looking for some mythical origin and "choosen people" philosophy much in line of today´s black pride groups.
    Poor Nordics has all to disapear in the Mediterranean while the Meds thrived and collapsed one civilizatio after another without the "blond blessing"....eyes: You and your deluded speechline are a living testimony as how we NS or WN will never amount to anything.

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    Originally posted by Ebusitanus:
    Didn´t we have this before?...It seems that an orderly exchange of ideas doesn´t suite you. You were proven wrong then and we can play this game here too...of course, if you so allow it.
    eyes: How, exactly, are my ideas not "orderly"? If you feel that you can disprove my statements, then by all means, please be my guest, and do so.

    Titus' family were not Mediterranean either, they were blond.
    Could you give me a source for that?
    Titus' gens ("family"), were the Flavians, a name which derives from the Latin word flavus, which means "blond". As several Graeco-Roman authors noted, it was the custom of the Romans to name their families after those physical characteristics that were often associated with the individual family members.

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    Ancient vs modern greeks

    What is your opinion on the racial connection between modern and ancient Greeks.(i would appreciate it if you speak with evidences).
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    Titus' family were not Mediterranean either, they were blond.
    All of the information, that I am getting suggest that Titus' family were indeed Mediterranean. I am still open to the possibility that the sources are wrong, however.

    Titus was born in Rome, probably on 30 December 39, as the eldest son of Titus Flavius Vespasianus—commonly known as Vespasian—and Domitilla the Elder.[1] He had one younger sister, Domitilla the Younger (b. 45), and one younger brother, also named Titus Flavius Domitianus (b. 51), but commonly referred to as Domitian.

    Decades of civil war during the 1st century BC had contributed greatly to the demise of the old aristocracy of Rome, which was gradually replaced in prominence by a new provincial nobility during the early part of the 1st century.[2] One such family was the gens Flavia, which rose from relative obscurity to prominence in just four generations, acquiring wealth and status under the emperors of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Titus's great-grandfather, Titus Flavius Petro, had served as a centurion under Pompey during Caesar's civil war. His military career ended in disgrace when he fled the battlefield at the Battle of Pharsalus in 48 BC.[3] Nevertheless, Petro managed to improve his status by marrying the extremely wealthy Tertulla, whose fortune guaranteed the upwards mobility of Petro's son Titus Flavius Sabinus I, Titus's grandfather.[4] Sabinus himself amassed further wealth and possible equestrian status through his services as tax collector in Asia and banker in Helvetia. By marrying Vespasia Polla he allied himself to the more prestigious patrician gens Vespasia, ensuring the elevation of his sons Titus Flavius Sabinus II and Vespasian to the senatorial rank
    Retrieved From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus

    Titus Flavius Sabinus, (lived 1st century BC to 1st century) was the son of Titus Flavius Petro and Tertulla. He was an Equestrian from Reate (modern Rieti) in the Sabine region of Italy. He served as a customs official in the province of Asia, where he was honoured with statues dedicated "To an Honest Tax-gatherer", and later as a banker at Aventicum among the Helvetii in Gaul, where he died. With his wife, Vespasia Polla, he had two sons, the consul Titus Flavius Sabinus and the future emperor Vespasian, and a daughter who died in infancy.
    Retrieved From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_F..._of_Vespasian)

    Sabina, the region in the Sabine Hills of Latium named for the Sabines, is the ancient territory that is today mainly identified with the Province of Rieti, in Lazio, although it includes parts of southern Umbria (area of Cascia, Amelia, Narni, Accumoli and Norcia) and Abruzzo (Aterno Valley).
    Retrieved From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabina_(region)



    Titus was born on 30 December A.D. 39 in Rome, one of three children of Vespasian, Roman emperor (A.D. 69-79), and Domitilla I, daughter of a treasury clerk. .[[1]] The family's circumstances were modest, but began to improve during the emperorship of Claudius (A.D. 41-54), under whom Vespasian advanced rapidly. His ascent likely played a role in securing the honor of a court education for Titus, who studied with the emperor's own son, Britannicus. The two remained close friends until Britannicus' death in A.D. 55 under Nero. In affection for his boyhood mate, Titus later preserved his memory by setting up golden statues of him in the palace and by routinely accompanying another statue in processions in the Circus. .[[2]] The intellectual advantages of a palace education, with its emphasis on Greek and Latin literature and declamation, and of a father who had attained the rank of consul, placed Titus firmly upon the path of a young senator. His early posts remain obscure but, perhaps as early as A.D. 61, he served as a military tribune in Upper Germany and Britain, the same provinces in which his father had served as a legionary legate..[[3]] While in Britain, Titus is said to have saved Vespasian's life; another source records numerous busts and statues in Britain and Germany commemorating his achievements. The accounts lack historical basis but are typical of the fondness of later historians for exaggerating Titus' qualities and achievements.. [[4]]
    Returning to Rome in the early months of A.D. 64, Titus practiced law, most likely with the intention of advancing his own reputation. Little is known of his political career after his return from Britain. In all likelihood, he advanced through the offices typically held by a young senator. It was during this year that he married Arrecina Tertulla. Her background remains obscure, and not long after the marriage, Arrecina died. Soon thereafter, Titus married Marcia Furnilla. The marriage represented a notable success for the Flavians, as Marcia was of a noble family, the granddaughter of a former proconsul of Africa. Suspicions of political intrigue were ever present in first-century Rome, however, and when Marcia's family fell into disfavor with Nero, the brief marriage ended in divorce. The sources agree that a daughter, Julia, was born, yet it is not clear whether she belonged to Titus' first or second marriage. At any rate, Julia's subsequent life was miserable; she is said to have died in her mid-twenties of an abortion forced upon her by Titus' brother and successor, Domitian, in the late eighties A.D.

    Judaean Campaigns
    In A.D. 66 Nero granted to Vespasian a special command in the East with the task of settling the revolt in Judaea. The immediate cause of the war was rioting in Cesaraea and Jerusalem, leading to the slaughter in the latter city of Jewish leaders and Roman soldiers. In response to the crisis, the emperor placed the seven legions in Syria under Vespasian' s authority and named Titus as legate of the 15th legion of Apollo, the legio XV Apollinaris. The appointment was unusual, for Titus had not yet held the praetorship, a judicial post normally held by a senator before he became a legionary commander. At the very least, both appointments reflected Nero's confidence in father and son.
    It is difficult to assess Titus' role in the campaigns of A.D. 67-68. The main source, the Jewish Wars by Josephus, a Jew with strong Roman sympathies, consistently portrays him in highly favorable terms. Titus did figure prominently in the subjugation of at least five rebel centers during this period, but he never wholly subdued any town that had its own defenses. When stripped of Josephus' enhancements, therefore, Titus' accomplishments seem more modest.[[6]] Nevertheless, he capably performed the tasks assigned to him and, in the process, projected the image of a daring and successful military leader. While not entirely accurate, the portrait is not completely surprising either, for as the son of the supreme commander Titus would have enjoyed more attention than was typically accorded an ordinary quaestorian legionary legate.

    With the death of Nero in A.D. 68, the Flavians methodically plotted toward the imperial throne. Little is heard of Titus during this critical period. He likely helped to consolidate support for the Flavians in the East by negotiating with the likes of Gaius Licinius Mucianus, governor of Syria. Even so, it was Vespasian who remained in charge. By mid-July, A.D. 69, legions in Judaea, Egypt, and Syria had declared for him. The Danubian legions soon followed, and on 21 December, the day after the emperor Vitellius' death, the senate conferred all the usual powers on Vespasian. Following these events, Titus remained in the East to undertake the siege of Jerusalem, the exploit for which he is most remembered. Beset by violent factional strife and internal discord, Jerusalem was a stubborn obstacle to the Roman pacification of Judaea. Built on two hills and surrounded by walls, the city's fortifications were formidable. With four legions under his command, Titus began an assault on the city in spring, A.D. 70. In less than four weeks, his forces had breached the walls of the so-called New City, or suburb of Bezetha. Only the inner city and the Temple itself remained to be taken. A siege wall was quickly built around the city, and the circumvallation had the desired effect of increasing starvation. By August, the outer Temple court had been reached and, in the ensuing attack, the Temple was burned to the ground and all captives butchered. Titus was hailed as imperator by his troops. In a final desecration to the Temple, sacrifice was made to the Roman standards in the Temple court.

    Titus' use of defense walls, towers, catapults, and battering rams in overtaking the city - all traditional Roman military tactics - demonstrated that he was a capable, but not an innovative, military leader. In addition, he had sometimes displayed a reckless intervention, especially in the early stages of the siege. These flaws owed more to inexperience than to military incompetence, however, and as a counter-balance Titus displayed remarkable energy in the field and the ability to inspire deep loyalty in his troops. As a result, Jerusalem was efficiently, if not brutally, overcome and the campaign in Judaea was effectively won. Titus spent the winter of A.D. 70 touring the East with a splendid retinue of legionaries and prisoners, presumably to provide a public display of Flavian military prowess and to underscore the consequences of rebellion against his father by the punishments inflicted on Jewish prisoners. Here he revealed a sympathy for brutality and humiliation, most evident in the way in which Jews were thrown to wild beasts or forced to fight each other in shows for public enjoyment. Indiscretion also played a part in his activities, particularly in his dalliance with Berenice, the thrice-married sister of M. Julius Agrippa II, an Eastern monarch with a strong allegiance to Rome. Powerful, wealthy, and experienced in Eastern affairs, Berenice was a formidable match for Titus. Yet, as Cleopatra's relationship with Mark Antony had earlier shown, involvement with an Eastern queen represented a threat to Roman stability that could not be tolerated. Marriage remained an impossibility. Even so, Berenice visited Rome in A.D. 75 with her brother and openly lived with Titus for a time, although he dismissed her, with mutual regret, upon his accession to the throne.. [[9]]

    Role Under Vespasian
    Titus returned to Rome in June, A.D. 71 and participated in a lavish joint triumph with Vespasian to celebrate the Judaean campaign. The joint celebration was deliberate, as Vespasian wished to waste no time in establishing an heir-apparent to the throne. Consequently, Titus shared in virtually every honor with the emperor during the seventies A.D., including the tribunician power, seven joint-consulships, and a share of the office of censor. In A.D. 72, Titus was also appointed praetorian prefect with responsibility for the army at Rome, a particularly important post since military loyalty was indispensable to the success of the new regime. It seems clear that not only did Vespasian need a trusted colleague in this post but also one who would do his dirty work. Tradition records that Titus was skilled as a forger. We also learn that he was "somewhat arrogant and tyrannical" in that he tried suspicious characters in the theater and camp "by popular pressure and not by trial.". [[10]] A certain amount of bad press was to be expected for the regime's enforcer, but only a single instance of justice of this kind survives, making any further evaluation of Titus' role difficult.[[11]] On the other hand, Titus was also portrayed during these years as a capable and diligent administrator who attended senate meetings, requested advice, and generally mixed well with all parties. At the same time, the sources offer no indication that he was ever considered a "co-ruler' with Vespasian, and it was only upon the latter's death on 24 June, A.D. 79 that Titus assumed full imperial powers.
    Titus' Reign
    Before becoming emperor, tradition records that Titus was feared as the next Nero, a perception that may have developed from his association with Berenice, his alleged heavy-handedness as praetorian prefect, and tales of sexual debauchery.. [[12]] Once in office, however, both emperor and his reign were portrayed in universally positive terms. The suddenness of this transformation raises immediate suspicions, yet it is difficult to know whether the historical tradition is suspect or if Titus was in fact adept at taking off one mask for another. What is clear, however, is that Titus sought to present the Flavians as the legitimate successors of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Proof came through the issuing of a series of restoration coins of previous emperors, the most popular being Augustus and Claudius. In A.D. 80 Titus also set out to establish an imperial cult in honor of Vespasian. The temple, in which cult (the first that was not connected with the Julio-Claudians) was housed, was completed by Domitian and was known as the Temple of Vespasian and Domitian.
    Legitimacy was also sought through various economic measures, which Titus enthusiastically funded. Vast amounts of capital poured into extensive building schemes in Rome, especially the Flavian Amphitheater, popularly known as the Colosseum. In celebration of additions made to the structure, Titus provided a grand 100-day festival, with sea fights staged on an artificial lake, infantry battles, wild beast hunts, and similar activities. He also constructed new imperial baths to the south-east of the Amphitheater and began work on the celebrated Arch of Titus, a memorial to his Jewish victories.. [[13]] Large sums were directed to Italy and the provinces as well, especially for road building. In response to the eruption of Vesuvius in A.D. 79, Titus spent large sums to relieve distress in that area; likewise, the imperial purse contributed heavily to rebuilding Rome after a devastating fire destroyed large sections of the city in A.D. 80. As a result of these actions, Titus earned a reputation for generosity and geniality. Even so, his financial acumen must not be under-estimated. He left the treasury with a surplus, as he had found it, and dealt promptly and efficiently with costly natural disasters. The Greek historian of the third-century A.D., Cassius Dio, perhaps offered the most accurate and succinct assessment of Titus' economic policy: "In money matters, Titus was frugal and made no unnecessary expenditure.". [[14]] In other areas, the brevity of Titus' reign limits our ability to detect major emphases or trends in policy. As far as can be discerned from the limited evidence, senior officials and amici were well chosen, and his legislative activity tended to focus on popular social measures, with the army as a particular beneficiary in the areas of land ownership, marriage, and testamentary freedom. In the provinces, Titus continued his father's policies by strengthening roads and forts in the East and along the Danube.

    Death and Assessment
    Titus died in September, A.D. 81 after only 26 months in office. Suetonius recorded that Titus died on his way to the Sabine country of his ancestors in the same villa as his father.. [[15]] A competing tradition persistently implicated his brother and successor, Domitian, as having had a hand in the emperor's demise, but the evidence is highly contradictory and any wrongdoing is difficult to prove..[[16]]Domitian himself delivered the funeral eulogy and had Titus deified. He also built several monuments in honor of Titus and completed the Temple of Vespasian and Titus, changing the name of the structure to include his brother's and setting up his cult statue in the Temple itself.
    Full Article:http://www.roman-emperors.org/titus.htm

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    Titus looks like a normal Dinaric influenced Alpinid everyday Roman.

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