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Thread: Was there an Anglo-Saxon Wipe Out in England?

  1. #41
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    I've been reading Bede lately, and according to his history of the English people prior to the Saxon invasions and after the final Roman legions left Britain the Irish and Picts began raiding and such with the Britons not having a military force as their war men were gone for a number of reasons (Roman military service so they left with the legions, sickness, death from early raids, etc...), plus there was famine and pestilence. Sounds to me that by the time the Saxons came they would not have had much to do to really make the native Britons numbers dwindle, now this brings up the question of why the autosomal genetic similarity between English folk and their other Insular neighbors?

    It could be that the Anglo-Saxon's utilized a practice similar to the Roman foederati forming their military forces from various groups of Northern and Northwestern European peoples not just Germanic but Celto-Germanic or even Celto to a smaller extent, like today a big inspiration for military action is payment of some sort and one could bet that when rumor spreads about a large warband heading out to conquer an island supposedly well suited for farming and bountiful in plunder folks are gonna want in on that band wagon.

    So in turn if the initial Anglo-Saxon waves were already consisting of a Celto-Germanic man base, by the time all those descendants of the various soldiers and other settlers in those large bands got to mix their blend would look very similar to what we are seeing today in Britain.

    We can tell based on the genetic maps that the Celto component is pulling the English towards the Irish and such while the Germanic component is pulling them towards the Germans, as a whole English folk are naturally most similar to other English folk and in some cases to other Isle inhabitants (these latter being probably recent Anglo-Scots or Anglo-Irish mixes) while others cluster farther towards the Germans with a slighter pull towards the Irish and such (these ones more than likely being those of all or mostly all English ancestry thus their greater pull towards other Germanics with their more slight Celtic pull being the result of possibly the other parts of the early war bands in combination with the even smaller numbers of remaining Britons).
    Lineage migration - Hatfield, Yorkshire, England ->Stainforth, Yorkshire, England ->Whitgift, Yorkshire, England->Blacktoft, Yorkshire, England->Mecklenburg County, Virginia ->Rutherford County, North Carolina ->Overton County, Tennessee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadwallon
    I've been reading Bede lately, and according to his history of the English people prior to the Saxon invasions and after the final Roman legions left Britain the Irish and Picts began raiding and such with the Britons not having a military force as their war men were gone for a number of reasons (Roman military service so they left with the legions, sickness, death from early raids, etc...), plus there was famine and pestilence. Sounds to me that by the time the Saxons came they would not have had much to do to really make the native Britons numbers dwindle, now this brings up the question of why the autosomal genetic similarity between English folk and their other Insular neighbors?
    Bede got his information for this period essentially from Gildas, who used a fair bit of hyperbole in his accounts, as did continental writers of the same period, with the barbarian invasions occuring.

    Other sources indicate that there were times of reasonable prosperity in this era, and many British kingdoms survived in their own right until close to two centuries after the departure of Roman rule. In fact it would appear that the Britons themselves may have taken things into their own hands and expelled the last of the failing Roman administrators, and organised their own defence.

    So I don't think they were really left helpless when the Romans left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtisw View Post
    I know that Coon and others have commented on the high frequency of the "Keltic Nordid"/Atlantid types in England, but consider that England has received much immigration from IReland in the early modern and modern eras. This could account for the frequencies of those types in modern-day England.
    In my experience, Kelts are more common among Scots and Anglo-Saxons obviously eponymous all of another kind. My understanding is inclusive of the whole Anglosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrgenholt View Post
    The genetic research, assuming correctness, indicates that the majority of British genes entered the Isles from two primary zones of contact, in a pincer movement of prehistoric migration. The earliest of the two contributions happened in the Paleolithic, coming from the Atlantic fringe, as the peoples of Europe headed back northwards with the recession of the ice. The second of the two a little later, from Northern Europe, headed across Doggerland from, primarily, Scandinavia. These set the foundations, and later contributions where of less significance in terms of genetics and of greater significance in terms of culture.
    The Atlanto-Mediterranean migration is Y-DNA hg I from the Adriatic and Pontic. The Aryo-Nordic migration is Y-DNA hg R from the Baltic and the Caspian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Way of Deception View Post
    Many (perhaps the majority) of anthropologists I've read put the Keltic Nordid type as most common in Belgium & the Netherlands, and more common in England than Ireland.
    Belgians and Dutch are two population streams, one Celt and the other German. There's bound to be overlap between these two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunwi View Post
    I think judging by looking at the English that the wipeout theory isn't sustainable. English people have a tendency to look quite olive. The fair skin and light features are in a somehwat minority to me.
    Bullshit! We're not Hispanics or Turks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda Trostenhatten View Post
    Linguistically this would be quite simple, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes too lazy to fight the huns fled over the sea and each numbered around 60 000 and no words entered the language until the norman invasion when the language began to be italized, but again this was done not by swarthy italians but a bunch of norwegians who had picked up french.

    the english are genetically distant from the welsh and close to the frisians
    LOL lazy! Ingvaeones were the only Völkerwanderung tribal confederation to entirely transplant and replicate Germanic blood into new soil, until Iceland followed. We weathered Norman bastards, to make a pun. It is true that I'm much closer to Frisian than Welsh according to the Magnus Ducatus Lituaniae Project, so much so that it rivals Kentish for top result in the 1.0-3.0 range (can't recall ATM, but closer than any other admixture calculator), depending on what DNA test sample (Living or Ancestry) I upload to Gedmatch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhe View Post
    Incorrect. The English are just as close to the Welsh as they are to the Frisians; in fact all Brits are quite similar to each other. The only genetic outliers in Britain are the Orcadians (Orkney).
    No, I'm not closer to other (Celtic) British Isles than other Ingvaeonic homelands in the Netherlands (Friesland) and Denmark (Jutland), but the distance from Germany (Saxony) is due to drift and if you admix Dutch with Danish, the result is that type of German that Angles represent upon closer examination. Irish is no closer to me than German.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savant View Post
    Wrong, English are more germanic. The main remaining genetic enclave of the original britons are in Wales.
    It's plain as day how England and Wales are two populations, but the Welsh Marches are where there's more overlap than anywhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamar Fox View Post
    The English are almost exactly midway between continental Germanic and Celtic British Isles populations, viewed as a whole, but we are closer to the Dutch and Belgians than to anyone else.

    Here are some quantifications of the various ethnicities' genetic distance from the English, taken from Cavalli-Sforza:

    Belgian 15, Dutch 17, Danish 21, German 22, French 24, Norwegian 25, Scottish 27, Swiss 28, Irish 30, Swedish 37, Spanish 47, Italian 51, Austrian 55, Czech 60, Polish 70, Russian 79, Basque 119, Greek 204, Lappish 404.
    Yes, this is all correct, but after Swedish I'm closer to Austrian, followed by Finnish and Hungarian, then Spanish and Italian, in that order. Basically, my blood bias leans further East than South, but Balto-Slav is still further away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barreldriver View Post
    Naturally proportions would be near impossible to gauge in New Worlder's like myself as the majority my pull towards places like Germany is due to recent actual German ancestry as opposed to a distant Anglo-Saxon ancestor.
    I don't think that my limited German really affects my drift, because it's back in the 19th century and still only about as distant as Irish. The population here hardly differs in proportions to where we were then. It's obvious when King George III ruled both Ireland and Hanover in addition to England and Scotland, all between Denmark-Norway-Sweden and France-Spain-Sicily as historically associated by personal rule of the Crown. What side of this spectrum would the English vs the Scottish align with? Plain as day to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonCeorl View Post
    ^I agree

    How else can you explain the complete lack of Celtic words in English and the complete lack of Celtic place names in England?
    Amerindian names abound on American landscape, but where are they living now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingvaeonic View Post
    That's quite a few Danish settlements. Over half of England settled by Danes, who would have been absorbed eventually into the local Anglo-Saxon population infusing more Germanic blood into the English. I really can't see how the English, the real, genetic English if you like, could be anything other than thoroughly Germanic. So now we have four Germanic peoples in the ethnic composition of the English. Excellent.
    Danes reinforced Jutes and even Angles of Schleswig, no matter the perception of affluence and influence that Saxons may have had with regard for the Kingdom of Ludwig and the HRE.

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingManx View Post
    The fact that Brittany exists should tell us the whole story. Incredible bloodshed.
    Yes, these monumental developments don't happen for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingManx View Post
    My family was apparently fairly upper-class in the Old World, so maybe Im making too many generalizations on the britvolk as a whole.

    Still, how many millions of Y-dna lines passed away during the two World Wars? How many left for greener pastures in the New World? I think that until all the variables are looked at and measured, the extent of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian ancestry in Dark Age Britain will remain something of a mystery.
    Genetic drift happens with mass migrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barreldriver View Post
    Very true, and the Plague is a factor to be considered. With New Worlder's it's hard to tell because we've mixed in some cases with Germans and Scandinavians, so the only New Worlder's that would be of use in such analysis are those of pure British Isle's ancestry.
    It's consistency across the Atlantic...

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    Interesting and informative remarks and commentary set down in this post by Rodskarl Dubhgall. I shall refer to this post and parent thread for future reference.


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