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Thread: Was there an Anglo-Saxon Wipe Out in England?

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    Question Was there an Anglo-Saxon Wipe Out in England?

    So who here believes that there was an "Anglo-Saxon wipeout", meaning that during the early Middle Ages, Anglo Saxons emigrated to England in such numbers that they pushed out or massacred most of the people that had been living there before them?

    I know, recently, there was supposed genetic data that showed most British were descended from Cro-Magnid and Atlanto-Mediterranid peoples. However, I also remember reading that the studies that purportedly showed those possibilities, were wrongly interpreted.

    I believe that, more often than not, myth and conventional wisdom concerning a peoples origins have some basis in reality. The conventional wisdom is that the Anglo-SAxons largely pushed out the Romano-Celts, and I think this is probably the most likely scenario.

    I know that Coon and others have commented on the high frequency of the "Keltic Nordid"/Atlantid types in England, but consider that England has received much immigration from IReland in the early modern and modern eras. This could account for the frequencies of those types in modern-day England.

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    Senior Member Fyrgenholt's Avatar
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    The genetic research, assuming correctness, indicates that the majority of British genes entered the Isles from two primary zones of contact, in a pincer movement of prehistoric migration. The earliest of the two contributions happened in the Paleolithic, coming from the Atlantic fringe, as the peoples of Europe headed back northwards with the recession of the ice. The second of the two a little later, from Northern Europe, headed across Doggerland from, primarily, Scandinavia. These set the foundations, and later contributions where of less significance in terms of genetics and of greater significance in terms of culture.

    I'm not sure whether I do or do not believe in an Anglo-Saxon wipeout, but what I do certainly believe, is that the early history of England, and the development of our language and culture, is shrouded in alot of mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtisw View Post
    I know that Coon and others have commented on the high frequency of the "Keltic Nordid"/Atlantid types in England, but consider that England has received much immigration from IReland in the early modern and modern eras. This could account for the frequencies of those types in modern-day England.
    Many (perhaps the majority) of anthropologists I've read put the Keltic Nordid type as most common in Belgium & the Netherlands, and more common in England than Ireland.

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    There's been a lot of controversy regarding this when genetics gets involved. Originally it was assumed due to the levels of R1b in Britain (which is often over represented due to a bias in testing availability) indicated against Anglo-Saxon wipe out, however there have been discoveries of subclades of R1b that seem to have been brought by Anglo-Saxons and other Germanics like the Norse, examples being the clades of U106 and S182 (S182 recently being discovered at 23andMe and tested for by both 23andMe and Ethnoancestry, it has been labeled as Norse).

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    I think judging by looking at the English that the wipeout theory isn't sustainable. English people have a tendency to look quite olive. The fair skin and light features are in a somehwat minority to me.

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    A wipeout would be an unusual event in such a migration. Certainly not typical for other migrations of the same period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunwi View Post
    I think judging by looking at the English that the wipeout theory isn't sustainable. English people have a tendency to look quite olive. The fair skin and light features are in a somehwat minority to me.
    I disagree. Fair skin and lighter features are in the majority where I live although some, including myself, do have darker hair and/or eyes but none the less retain pale skin - this can be said in regards to the majority of European countries regardless. Who said non-Germanic speakers necessarily have olive skin anyway? I don't really know any Celts who do. Even Tacitus made such comments only regarding the Silures, a tribe who occupied a handful of modern south Wales counties.

    I believe if a wipeout did happen then it only happened in the South East of England, this argument being supported by the distribution of Celtic languages existing until atleast the early middle ages in the North West and North East of modern day England ('Cumbric') as well as, of course, Wales and the South West (preserved in the form of Cornish).

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    I doubt the Anglo-Saxon invasion was really an invasion like a whole "wave" of a people.
    Firstly warrior parties arrived, called by the British (Hengest and Horsa, anyone? I think that part of the myth is quite correct.), took native women because they lacked their own, but after some time they wanted more of the land and called in their kinsmen which probably mostly arrived as families already. Nevertheless quite a few of them might have taken native women too.
    The rest of the Celts, around 60% imo, got in larger parts pushed back over time to Wales, Cornwall and partly Scotland or died. Many might have just become subjects of their new masters though.

    Gunwi, I don't know what you mean, it's not like the pre-Germanic or even pre-Celtic (which weren't very numerous anyways) populations were very swarthy, at least not as far as I know. They might have not been as fair as the Anglo-Saxons but still...
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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    Linguistically this would be quite simple, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes too lazy to fight the huns fled over the sea and each numbered around 60 000 and no words entered the language until the norman invasion when the language began to be italized, but again this was done not by swarthy italians but a bunch of norwegians who had picked up french.

    the english are genetically distant from the welsh and close to the frisians

    I believe this thing had been lying quietly when jewish genetics expert Goldberg made a study and said that there never was a large invasion of England and the people there are the same as at the time of Christ. he also said not many vikings settled & so on. but so I basically agree with the first post.

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    ^I agree

    How else can you explain the complete lack of Celtic words in English and the complete lack of Celtic place names in England?

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