Was there an Anglo-Saxon Wipe Out in England?

[King Sitric]

Indeed Sigurd, there are two branches of Celtic languages: one (Bryttonic) gave birth to Welsh, Cornish, Devonian and Breton. The other (Goidelic) gave birth to Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic and Manx and various northern dialects.

The reason for this is that the Indo-European consonant written as "qu" has given 'c' in the Gaelic (Goidelic) languages and 'p' in the Bryttonic languages.

For instance:

"head" in Irish is "ceann", in Welsh - "pen".

"who" - in Irish "ce", in Welsh "pwy".


These languages are among oldest surving languages still spoken in Europe today.

[VikingManx]

The fact that Brittany exists should tell us the whole story. Incredible bloodshed.

[Barreldriver]

The fact that Brittany exists should tell us the whole story. Incredible bloodshed.

Irregardless of Brittany, the genes don't lie, and the gene's say, at an over all biogeographic ancestral level, the British Islander's are very very very similar to the core, with only slight variations that cause them to shift within their cluster towards other clusters that might be German, French, or Scandinavian, the existence of Brittany is not evidence of a complete or major retreat of Britons, rather it just shows that there were Britons who retreated (exact number who the heck can know), just because a number retreat does not mean all did, and the genes suggest that a load of them assimilated, if you disagree then tell me how the English are closer to the Scots and Irish (excluding some Orcadians, as the Orcadians form their own cluster almost that's in between the Norwegian's and the other British Islander's) than they are to Germans, Scandinavians, etc....

If their ancestry was predominantly Anglo-Saxon they would be pulled farther away from groups like the Irish and pulled closer to groups like the Germans and such, these maps don't show that, they show that the English, Irish, Scots, etc... form a distinguishable cluster, showing overall common relation, the pulls/shifts within that cluster that go in the direction of other clusters suggests some admixture, but not a strong enough one to lift them out of their group, which thus means at a majority their genes are common between each other (and logically then pre-Anglo-Saxon, unless you want to say the Anglo-Saxon invasion went as far as Cork? Rubbish).

[VikingManx]

Im colonial British, and mine cluster with the Danish samples.

Maybe the Germanics left. All I know for a fact is that the founding-stock british in my part of America dont look much like modern Englishmen.

For instance, this man spawned me:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137751

Does that look like potato-famine Irish to you?

[Barreldriver]

Im colonial British, and mine cluster with the Danish samples.

Maybe the Germanics left. All I know for a fact is that the founding-stock british in my part of America dont look much like modern Englishmen.

For instance, this man spawned me:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137751

Does that look like potato-famine Irish to you?

That's your example, I'm talking a region as a whole, of course there is individual deviations, but as a whole on these maps there's a very dense cluster of UK, Irish, Scots, etc.... with very little pull away.

[VikingManx]

My family was apparently fairly upper-class in the Old World, so maybe Im making too many generalizations on the britvolk as a whole.

Still, how many millions of Y-dna lines passed away during the two World Wars? How many left for greener pastures in the New World? I think that until all the variables are looked at and measured, the extent of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian ancestry in Dark Age Britain will remain something of a mystery.

[Barreldriver]

My family was apparently fairly upper-class in the Old World, so maybe Im making too many generalizations on the britvolk as a whole.

Still, how many millions of Y-dna lines passed away during the two World Wars? How many left for greener pastures in the New World? I think that until all the variables are looked at and measured, the extent of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian ancestry in Dark Age Britain will remain something of a mystery.

Very true, and the Plague is a factor to be considered. With New Worlder's it's hard to tell because we've mixed in some cases with Germans and Scandinavians, so the only New Worlder's that would be of use in such analysis are those of pure British Isle's ancestry.

[Hamar Fox]

Im colonial British, and mine cluster with the Danish samples.

Maybe the Germanics left. All I know for a fact is that the founding-stock british in my part of America dont look much like modern Englishmen.

I'm interested in exploring this a little further. Would you mind posting some photos of people you percieve as representing the English colonial type, and examples of people you perceive as representing the 'modern Englishman'?

For instance, this man spawned me:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137751

Does that look like potato-famine Irish to you?

I see people who look like your father every day. He looks more English than Irish, IMO. I never see anyone who looks like your mother, though (if she's your mother, that is).

[Rhydderch]

The fact that Brittany exists should tell us the whole story. Incredible bloodshed.

This is a frequently repeated fallacy. If we look at the history of Brittany we find that there was a British influence there long before the Anglo-Saxon conquest. In the turmoil of the barbarian raids (Scots and Picts as well as Anglo-Saxons) many Britons decided to pack up and leave to more peaceful territories already under British rule and cultural domination.

Alcuin of York does not speak of the Britons as if they were slaughtered or driven out, but that they "yielded to burdensome slavery" after having overthrown the Roman yoke. I would say that by "slavery" he was using the term as it commonly was, not in the sense of individuals being slaves of a household master, but of a nation being under foreign domination and tribute, in much the same way that Gauls, Britons and other peoples were said in earlier times to be "slaves of the Romans".

[VikingManx]

I'm interested in exploring this a little further. Would you mind posting some photos of people you percieve as representing the English colonial type, and examples of people you perceive as representing the 'modern Englishman'?



I see people who look like your father every day. He looks more English than Irish, IMO. I never see anyone who looks like your mother, though (if she's your mother, that is).

Yes she is my mother. Ill post a bunch of pictures of her soon. She is of English, Lowlands, Highlands, and Welsh origin.