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Thread: Was there an Anglo-Saxon Wipe Out in England?

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    See also this thread to understand why in consequence of the two German Wars of the 20th century the Anglo-Saxons (whose mother nation is Germany, see YGGDRASIL) are biologically doomed.

    H.S.Chamberlain: The Foundations of the 19th Century
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=137093

    There will be no Anglo-Saxon revival, and certainly not a Renaissance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda Trostenhatten View Post
    the english are genetically distant from the welsh and close to the frisians
    Incorrect. The English are just as close to the Welsh as they are to the Frisians; in fact all Brits are quite similar to each other. The only genetic outliers in Britain are the Orcadians (Orkney).

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    Anglo-Saxon Culture

    Why arent there more Celtic place names in Britain? Because the Romans Romanized everything during their occupation. As an example, whatever was Celtic in the area along the Thames river and estuary was centralized and Romanized in Londinium which later became London. As for the Angles, Saxons and Jutes they were never "German" ("German" as state and nation is a modern 19th Century conceptual construct. I doubt they would consider themselves "German"). As for the migration into Britain, there were small raids that coalesced into camps, and villages. Then came a larger migration when the Romano-Brit King Vortigern invited large bands of Angles, Saxons and Jutes into the country to deal with various tribes of Picts, Scots and Irish who were running amuck in the land and Kingdom. As mercenaries, these Continental Tribes were payed in land and as pastoralists they settled in the countryside and not in the urban areas that had been established by the Romans and adopted by the Celtic population. These cities and urban areas fell into disrepair and ruin over time. As these Tribes had no need of the Latin or Celtic language, these place names, eventually were Anglicized.

    Finally, the Romano-Brits tried to drive the Angles, Saxons and Jutes out of the country once and for all, but were beaten back into what later became Wales and Cornwall and hence across the Channel into Britanny...

    And as the Angles, Saxons and Jutes would certainly have put it, "As they "welshed" on their deals, so we took what was ours by right"...

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    Wrong, English are more germanic. The main remaining genetic enclave of the original britons are in Wales.



    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhe View Post
    Incorrect. The English are just as close to the Welsh as they are to the Frisians; in fact all Brits are quite similar to each other. The only genetic outliers in Britain are the Orcadians (Orkney).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savant View Post
    Nope, sorry. English are mostly Frisian/Germanic/Saxon genetically. The main genetic enclave of the origian Britons are the Welsh.
    Prove it then (autosomal plots if possible). There is no `enclave` with the Welsh. All Brits tend to blend in with each other, there is VERY little differentiation. The Brits are closest to each other than to their European counterparts.

    In this map, all Brits cluster close together (red crosses)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhe View Post
    Prove it then (autosomal plots if possible). There is no `enclave` with the Welsh. All Brits tend to blend in with each other, there is VERY little differentiation. The Brits are closest to each other than to their European counterparts.

    In this map, all Brits cluster close together (red crosses)

    The English are almost exactly midway between continental Germanic and Celtic British Isles populations, viewed as a whole, but we are closer to the Dutch and Belgians than to anyone else.

    Here are some quantifications of the various ethnicities' genetic distance from the English, taken from Cavalli-Sforza:

    Belgian 15, Dutch 17, Danish 21, German 22, French 24, Norwegian 25, Scottish 27, Swiss 28, Irish 30, Swedish 37, Spanish 47, Italian 51, Austrian 55, Czech 60, Polish 70, Russian 79, Basque 119, Greek 204, Lappish 404.

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    All my English forebears looked decidedly Germanic, in and out of England, my Anglo-Saxon grandfather had classic Germanic features, including sandy blond hair, high cheekbones, straight nose, and very blue eyes. So I tend to believe the conventional history of the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes migrating from northern Germany and western Denmark, to settle what was to become Germanic Britain or England. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes may well have absorbed some of the Celtic Britons in the process of settling England, but that doesn't cancel out or detract from the fact that these Germanic settlers and their Anglo-Saxon descendants were and are born of these Germanic tribes and a product of Germanic Europe.
    Between the devil and the deep blue sea.

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    As to my personal opinion on this matter I am inclined to think that the folks of England are mostly pre-Anglo-Saxon derived, with Anglo-Saxon being the next largest component followed by Scandinavian and Norman (all this depending on independent lineage in a way as some could have more Anglo-Saxon than others). My reasons for thinking this way are reflected in this post http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...6&postcount=50

    Naturally proportions would be near impossible to gauge in New Worlder's like myself as the majority my pull towards places like Germany is due to recent actual German ancestry as opposed to a distant Anglo-Saxon ancestor.
    Lineage migration - Hatfield, Yorkshire, England ->Stainforth, Yorkshire, England ->Whitgift, Yorkshire, England->Blacktoft, Yorkshire, England->Mecklenburg County, Virginia ->Rutherford County, North Carolina ->Overton County, Tennessee.

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    Here's something I posted on another thread:

    I've heard of one test indicating a predominance of Anglo-Saxon "invader" genes in England, but other (in my view a little more thoughtful and detailed) DNA tests suggest that the vast majority are of pre-Saxon descent.

    As for names, the majority of river names in England are pre-Saxon, and the same goes for major towns, i.e. London, York, Leeds, Manchester etc.

    It may well be that the names of smaller villages tended to change over time, but the Norman Conquest brought in written records which pretty much put an end to this. This would explain why they tend to be more English, because whatever Celtic name a village might have had earlier (if it even existed) would often have been replaced by an English one by the time of the Conquest (due to language replacement).

    However, many place names which have an apparently English meaning might actually be of Celtic origin. An example of this phenomenon is the town of York, which in Old English is Eoforwic (which apparently means town of the bear, or something like that); but looking at the earlier records this is clearly just an Anglo-Saxon corruption of York's Celtic name Eborac or Ebrauc; and Edinburgh is known as Edwinesburg in Old English. If York had never been mentioned in Roman or early British writings (as in the case of most small villages in England), then everybody would assume the name York is of English origin.

    Regarding Celtic words in the English language, I believe a proper understanding of the nature of everything involved eliminates this difficulty. It'll take too long to explain here but I can if anyone's interested. Suffice it to say that I believe the A/S invasion was essentially no different from the Germanic invasions of the rest of the former Roman world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhe View Post
    Prove it then (autosomal plots if possible). There is no `enclave` with the Welsh. All Brits tend to blend in with each other, there is VERY little differentiation. The Brits are closest to each other than to their European counterparts.
    As genetic science advances the facts will emerge. There have been many DNA studies, and Germanic scientists tend to conclude England is Germanic (Weile, Weiss, Wager, Badman), British/Basque scientists/historians tend to conclude England is British etc (Oppenheimer, Sykes). Results tend to take the side of the ethnic group of the scientist/historian.

    This is the study I always cite:

    http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/10571/
    Y chromosome evidence for Anglo-Saxon mass migration

    Weale, ME and Weiss, DA and Jager, RF and Bradman, N and Thomas, MG (2002) Y chromosome evidence for Anglo-Saxon mass migration. MOL BIOL EVOL , 19 (7) , 1008 - 1021.

    Abstract

    British history contains several periods of major Cultural change. It remains controversial as to how much these periods coincided with substantial immigration from continental Europe. even for those that Occurred most recently. In this study, we examine genetic data for evidence of male immigration at particular times into Central England and North Wales. To do this, we used 12 biallelic polymorphisms and six microsatellite markers to define high-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes in a sample of 3 13 males from seven towns located along an east-west transect from East Anglia to North Wales. The Central English towns were genetically very similar, whereas the two North Welsh towns differed significantly both from each other and from the Central English towns. When we compared our data with an additional 177 samples collected in Friesland and Norway. We found that the Central English and Frisian samples were statistically indistinguishable. Using novel population genetic models that incorporate both mass migration and continuous gene flow, we conclude that these striking patterns are best explained by a substantial migration of Anglo-Saxon Y chromosomes into Central England (contributing 50%-100% to the gene pool Lit that time) but not into North Wales.

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